Can the Soul Die?

[keithr]

If you read my posts... you will see that I am trying to bow out of this topic... I made a few points here and there... and stated my beliefs.

I know the feeling! There have been pages and pages of replies in this thread since I last checked yesterday, so when I "called your bluff" I hadn't read your later responses (it's taken me all morning to get this far!).

For the purpose of showing scripture as you have requested. Again...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Thank you. However, I asked because I don't believe the Bible (God's word) harmonises with "eternal separation from God". The first verse you quoted says "eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord". May I make two points. First, it's eternal destruction, i.e. they will no longer exist - it's not existing seperate from God. The second point is that it's says they will no longer be in the presence of our Lord - that's Jesus, not God (yes, Jesus is not God, but that's another discussion!).

Regarding Matthew 25:41, the conclusion at the end of the passage is:

46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

The "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is referring to the symbolic fire in Revelation 20:

14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

Those judged worthy of eternal life (their names have been written in the book of life) will have eternal life (there will be no more death - death is destroyed, by symbolically being cast into fire, as is Hades [hell] where dead souls go), those not judged worthy will be punished with eternal death (symbolised by being cast into fire) - there is no hope of a second resurrection to life.

So the seperation ("Depart from me ... into eternal fire") is not a sending away to live eternally elsewhere, it's a sending to an execution! Once again, the Matthew passage is also talking about Jesus, not God:

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.​

Is it possible to be seperate from the presence of God? Psalms 139 (WEB) says:

7) Where could I go from your Spirit? Or where could I flee from your presence?
8) If I ascend up into heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol [hell], behold, you are there!​

 

[Addy]

@keithr ... You took the time to offer a good response to my plea... and also addressed the two scripture references that I included.
BUT... most importantly ( to me )... you treated me with RESPECT... and you get a gold star for that in my books.

My forte is NOT debating scripture meanings.... I know what I believe... and I stand by my believes as well as LIVE my beliefs. I was never one for debates... When I comment on a topic... I try to do with using my ENGLISH and love of writing. When I first arrived to the forums... I was looking for fellowship... but had no idea what forums really were... and oh my goodness... let's just say... I am NOT impressed. Too much noise for me.

I am a simple person... I live a very simple life... and therefore I don't do complicated very well.

My favorite line seems to be that everyone and their dog is allowed to post here within the forums... There are more opinions about Christianity than there are flavours of ice cream... THIS offends me deeply... but that's just me... As I stated earlier... this is obviously one of Backlit's bee in his bonnet... I have mine... which I listed in a previous post.

I allow GOD to be GOD... I have no problem with MYSTERY.... I don't feel the need to dissect scripture like some do... and to be honest... I have found that many who consider themselves knowledgeable about the bible and other topics are often plagued with arrogance. This has been witnessed this morning with a very naughty sheep dog. LOL

I am so HAPPY... RELIEVED and most GRATEFUL for the fact that I am NOT responsible for what others believe... I am only responsible for what I believe...

The original comment that I made on this thread was that I liked someone's post.... and here we are... I have said much.... and I was not planning to.

I believe in live and let live. Bless you and thank you for taking the time to acknowledge that I have been trying to exit quietly.

Tenderly... Addy

 

[keithr]

I agree with scripture that the soul is immortal and lives forever either with God or separated from God.

However, the Scriptures say that only God is immortal (and Jesus too now) - see 1 Timothy 6 (WEB):

16) [God] who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

Clearly Paul did not think the souls of humans are immortal, for he say that Christians will become immortal at their resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

We can't "put on immortality" if we are already immortal.

 

[LTJMP14]

However, the Scriptures say that only God is immortal (and Jesus too now) - see 1 Timothy 6 (WEB):

16) [God] who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.​

Clearly Paul did not think the souls of humans are immortal, for he say that Christians will become immortal at their resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15 (WEB):

51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

We can't "put on immortality" if we are already immortal.

Paul is speaking of the physical body. The body will receive immortal glorified bodies. The soul is already immortal.

 

[LTJMP14]

Correct. Cults are wrong. But take care in who you are calling a cult. Jesus was a cult leader according to the religious leaders of His day.
You are also correct that the punishment for rejecting God is eternal. Death, the wages of sin, is eternal if there is no resurrection subsequent to that death correct? And if we are naturally immortal, a common belief among all new age and pagan religious "cults", then how can we die subsequent to sin? Oh that's right. According to the devil's teaching to Eve right... Ye shall not surely die.

The mortal body dies. The immortal soul does not die.

 

[LTJMP14]

So. Eternal life is not a gift as the scriptures inform us, but inherent to humanity?

Eternal life in paradise is a gift by God's grace and what few receive. Eternal punishment is what we all deserve and what many receive.

 

[LTJMP14]

No, its been soundly refuted by me and others here- you just don't like it.

You cant make what's been written go away, its all upthread.

What's been written in God's word is as if it was written with an iron pen: the saved have eternal life and the unsaved have eternal punishment.

 

[keithr]

@keithr
BUT... most importantly ( to me )... you treated me with RESPECT... and you get a gold star for that in my books.

Thank you, I feel honoured!

When I first arrived to the forums... I was looking for fellowship... but had no idea what forums really were... and oh my goodness... let's just say... I am NOT impressed. Too much noise for me.

Yes, it's all too easy to be (or appear to be) impolite and aggessive on an Internet forum. And some of the popular subjects can have a lot of contributors, so that it can be difficult to keep up. I'm persevering because I want to learn new things from God's word, and to help others learn too, by sharing our understanding and what we have learnt. It also helps me to be sure that what I believe is correct, by having to explain to others why I believe what I believe - it makes you really think and search the Bible.

In the fairly short time that I've been participating I have learnt some things, so overall I think it's worth the effort. But I'm also mindful of the apostle Paul's admonition in Hebrews 10:

24) Let’s consider how to provoke one another to love and good works,
25) not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as you see the Day approaching.​

Bless you and thank you for taking the time to acknowledge that I have been trying to exit quietly.

Tenderly... Addy

Thank you, and may God bless you too.

Proverbs 25:11) A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in settings of silver.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

What's been written in God's word is as if it was written with an iron pen: the saved have eternal life and the unsaved have eternal punishment.

We are not discussing the content of God's word, we are discussing your defective understanding of it.

You are still talking in circles while avoiding defending your points with actual scripture that you yourself claim you can and do.

 

[keithr]

Paul is speaking of the physical body. The body will receive immortal glorified bodies. The soul is already immortal.

To be immortal means that you can't possibly die. Paul talks about the dead being raised to life (so if they are dead then they can't be immortal) and then being made immortal.

1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):
13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:
16) For if the dead aren’t raised, neither has Christ been raised.
17) If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

 

[Brakelite]

The mortal body dies. The immortal soul does not die.

What immortal soul? You haven't... You cannot... Prove any immortality in connection to man without it coming as a gift to the redeemed.

 

[Brakelite]

Eternal life in paradise is a gift by God's grace and what few receive. Eternal punishment is what we all deserve and what many receive.

Dodging the question doesn't help your cause.

 

[LTJMP14]

We are not discussing the content of God's word, we are discussing your defective understanding of it.

You are still talking in circles while avoiding defending your points with actual scripture that you yourself claim you can and do.

I've given you God's written word that says that both life for the saved and punishment for the unsaved are eternal. You choose to reject that. Your position on what God's word says is in league with cults like JW's SDA and LDS. I don't believe anything cults advance. Believe what you will.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

I've given you God's written word that says that both life for the saved and punishment for the unsaved are eternal. You choose to reject that.

I rejected nothing- I corrected you in every part. You are just being obstinate now. Its all upthread and none of your denial is going to change the truth of the matter.

Your position on what God's word says is in league with cults like JW's SDA and LDS. I don't believe anything cults advance. Believe what you will.

We already covered that in detail and correctly- in a very juvenile manner you are trying to create a red herring and use it as a smoke screen to hide behind and avoid facing the reality of the error of your positions.

 

[LTJMP14]

Dodging the question doesn't help your cause.

My cause is Christ. You really believe the subject matter of this dialogue matters to my eternal salvation? Be the dogmatic one, if you will. As for me, I'll simply say: God's blessings to you and yours.

 

[LTJMP14]

I rejected nothing- I corrected you in every part. You are just being obstinate now. Its all upthread and none of your denial is going to change the truth of the matter.



We already covered that in detail and correctly- in a very juvenile manner you are trying to create a red herring and use it as a smoke screen to hide behind and avoid facing the reality of the error of your positions.

Go with what you believe is true. I'll go with what God's word says. God's blessing to you and yours.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

My cause is Christ. You really believe the subject matter of this dialogue matters to my eternal salvation? Be the dogmatic one, if you will. As for me, I'll simply say: God's blessings to you and yours.

My, how red is your herring?

You avoid well from one who "claims" his beliefs are scripture.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Go with what you believe is true. I'll go with what God's word says. God's blessing to you and yours.

If that were true we wouldn't be having this discussion- but you already know that. You are just waffling

 

[Addy]

@Backlit... I really am sorry that this is CLEARLY a topic that upsets you... I have left you a note addressing this... but truly upon reading this thread.... there is NOTHING more can be said here.... YOU will be responsible for your beliefs... just like we are responsible for ours.

I believe the scripture states... SEEK me with all your heart and you will find ME. I honestly do not see God as cruel or inhumane... even though I do not understand all of God's heart... I place COMPLETE CONFIDENCE in the finished work of CHRIST on the CROSS. To me this is an issue of rejecting the BLOOD of CHRIST... and the punishment for that is HUGE.... eternal in fact... That is HOW GRIEVOUS a CRIME it is to reject the ATONEMENT of CHRIST..... if you do not believe that Christ is GOD... then there is NO sacrifice available to you for your sins.

You are looking at God through human eyes and with human understanding...

I have gotten to know you a bit over these last weeks... I am sad that you view things in this light.

Anyways... I did say I was finished here... and I am... but I wanted to address your heart.

 

[LTJMP14]

My, how red is your herring?

You avoid well from one who "claims" his beliefs are scripture.

Too much time spent on this subject. God's blessings to you and yours.