Can the Soul Die?

[Taken]

True, Adam “became” a “soul” with the “breath (spirit) of life”.....But was he "given" a soul?
The basic meaning of the word "soul" in Hebrew is a “breather”.....which is why animals are called souls too...not that they will go to heaven when they die, but that they breathe the same air that we do and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 2:19-20)

The "man" (a formed body) "became" a "living" soul;
Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

IMO, is BASIC knowledge, with a mindful mans emphasis on "Became", without understanding...that always comes later.

The formed man (we learn IS a body).
Formed by God.
Formed FROM existing dust, of an Existing Earth (which is dry land).
A FORM, that does NOTHING.
(It is neither ALIVE or DEAD).

Expressly, God breathed "HIS breath" INTO" that completely Formed body....AND?
That "created" FORM....BECAME "made" alive.

My understanding IS:
God "creates"... then "makes" His created things HAVE "ability" TO "function".

Meaning the formed body, was Formed, with head, trunk, limbs, hands, feet, mind, organs, systems, heart, blood, eyes, nose, ears, mouth, tongue....
WITHOUT the ability TO FUNCTION on it's own individual accord......
UNTIL, God BREATHED, "INTO" the Formed Body.

IMO -
God IS Life, IS the Source of LIFE.
God IS Spirit, Gods Spirit IS HIS Life.
...more precise...
...God HAS, "life", He GIVES to His creations.
...God HAS, "life", He WILL NEVER GIVE to His creations.

Life God "gives" to His creations...IS a soul.
Imparted via Gods breath, and God Blowing his breath INTO the created thing.
(That life, still belongs to God, as God declared, "all souls are mine"...Ezek 18:4)
Yet when a soul is IN a particular formed body of a man...that formed body is alive, AND both that body & soul IS identified by the SAME Name.

Life God "does NOT GIVE" to His creations...
IS "HIS" Spirit. (Isa 48:11)
To understand, Gods SPIRIT IS His "Supreme" POWER, and WHICH IS His GLORY, of POWER, greater that ANY other POWER.

Gods Power, His Glory, His Light...CAN, be "WITH" a man; "IN" a man (or not).
Gods Power, WITH a man, or IN a man;
is ALWAYS ... VIA, "reflection"

Mans Life (Blood), man can care for, nourish, maintain, or kill it.
Gods Life, (Soul), in a man, man controls, (per his choices) while it IS IN the man.
Gods Life, (Soul), in a man, CAN AT ANYTIME,
(Per Gods choosing), depart that living soul, out of a mans body, and sent it to a place He has prepared.
The SEED of God, God DOES GIVE to "willing" men (who have According to Gods "order and way"), agreed to accept Gods Offering of "His Seed")...for a mans NATURAL spirit, to become "MADE" (by Gods Power) born again.

Learning further, OF further Knowledge revealed...
A body is one thing.
A soul is another thing.
A spirit is another thing.
And the understanding thereof...
OF WHOLENESS...which IS:
An individual man Freely choosing and agreeing ( according to Gods order and way );
For a man TO: give God absolute authority TO:
Change the mans WHOLENESS;
Body, soul, spirit...."made" INTO what God Himself has DECLARED, "IS" Wholly Acceptable to FOREVER, BE KEPT "WITH" God, by, through, of...His Power, His Works.

1 Thes 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[keithr]

No, it's the fact that you LEFT OUT the part in 1 Thess.4 about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him, which is always... part of the concept of His gathering His Church (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

I find your reasoning confusing! You had suggested that I might think that Christians will be caught up to the clouds and live there forever, (you said "so you think Christ is going to gather us to Heaven in the CLOUDS to live!"), so I quoted 1Th 4:7 and compared it with Jesus' ascension to point out that just as Jesus is not still living in the clouds so neither does 1Th 4:7 mean that Christians will live in the clouds - we all just pass through on the way to our new home in heaven, the clouds are just a gathering point before moving on. So I was denying that I thought what you wrongly assumed I thought, and there was no mention of, nor need to mention, the asleep saints. But let's not waste any more time bickering about it!

Well no, there is NOTHING there written in 1 Thess.4 that says that happens prior to the great tribulation.

As I said, it's a whole new, and long subject to discuss, so we shouldn't clutter up this thread discussing it.

 

[Taken]

Hmmmm...not sure where you get that idea from, but perhaps you could provide scripture to flesh that out....?
The spirit in man, as I understand it, is what animates him. It’s what animated Adam when God stared him breathing, and what causes a newborn to take its first breath and start its independent life.
The spirit (breath) leaves the body at death, but that is only the last breath exhaled. (Psalm 146:4) Death comes quickly after breathing stops.
“His breath ("rûaḥ") goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (ASV)

"rûaḥ" according to Strongs means..... "wind, breath, mind, spirit.

1. breath
   
   
2. wind"

So when breathing stops....thought processes cease as well. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
Do souls need to think?


Always.....

Knowledge...a thing called a spirit...IN a formed man.

Zech 12:
[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and fometh the spirit of man within him.

This "thing", is NOT the MIND, formed IN the BRAIN of a man, as man has for the ability to hear a thing, hear another thing, and think and ponder what to Logically believe...
BETWEEN.....THIS and THAT.

This "thing", "spirit of man", is a DIFFERENT "thing, in a DIFFERENT place.
This "thing"..."spirit", IS IN a mans "heart".
This "thing..."spirit", IS a mans "TRUTH".

See the difference?
A mind of man; is weighing choices BETWEEN "this and that."
A spirit of man; has landed on A TRUTH, period. The Weighing BETWEEN..."this and that"...no longer exists.

Not a newsflash, a mans mind is constantly gaining new knowledge, and repeats, weighing between "this and that", believe or not. Gaining new knowledge to consider, weigh, and decide with the additional knowledge to mindfully CHANGE what he previously Believed to be accurate.
....And not to overlook...men routinely KNOW, (in their spirits thoughts, what they Believe is patently false....yet can, will and do...USE their MINDS thoughts, to Sway, Entice, Tempts, Convince others...FOR THEM, to believe, act, do...what is patently false.)...
^ THAT appears Illogical...(on its face)...Yet VIA WISDOM...
A person (with his OWN heartful Truth), will recognize, in a nutshell, the Tempting and Influencing of an other... IS a ploy, FOR "the Tempter to gain...AT THE EXPENSE of the other suffering the Consequences" by "agreeing, doing", what the Temptation "appears" as a "good choice to make".
(Devious trickery, and expressly useful and successful, on the weak, young, demented, without experience, Unwise.)

Gods Offering, IS giving man a new heart. (Called circumcision of the heart, ie cutting off a mans Natural OLD TRUTH,) and giving the man A NEW Heart, planting Gods SEED in that NEW Heart, birthing the man a NEW spirit, from Gods Seed, expressly for that new spirit, to be MADE in Gods "likeness", being taught (fed), Gods TRUTH, BY the Spirit of God (expressly called) the Spirit of Truth, that is WHOLLY acceptable for the man spirit, to gain Gods Understanding OF Gods Knowledge.

We learn, bit by bit, little by little.
OT - Lev 26:41 introduces the knowledge of an Uncircumcised Heart.
OT - Jer 4:4 introduces foreskin of a male and Heart circumcision.

It's foreshadow...introducing "uncircumcision" and "circumcision" has a role to play...but the full understanding is not yet revealed.

OT -gives more knowledge..
Ezek 11:19...18:31...36:26

NT -gives more knowledge...
cutting off the old truth, Gods seed, gaining a new spirit, (called born again), being fed Gods Truth...and the Understanding of the result of what having Gods Seed within a man, means...Chap John 14....1 John 3:9
(Other scriptures as well).

God Bless,
Taken

 

[quietthinker]

Can the Soul Die?
According the the media it's happening every day. I know I know, some find it hard to believe the media but man, do we need to be that naive?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think that should have been Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

Ecclesiastes 3 (WEB):

19) For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
20) All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.​

Yep, typo...thanks for the heads up.....corrected now.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

As C. S. Lewis correctly said: "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."

The soul is eternal and does not sleep or enter unconsciousness with the body that dies, but goes where the body it once filled desired it to go. For some, to the Lord; and others, to a place of separation and suffering. The Bible tells us that after Lazarus died, his spirit returned to him, and the young girl as well, and the boy being carried away to his burial, too. Since the souls/spirits of these physically dead returned to them, where did they go and from where did they come before returning into their once dead bodies? Moreover, Jesus tells of the rich man suffering in a place separated by a great divide. Of course this was the rich man's soul/spirit that was crying out for a touch of water: it is conscious suffering.

When someone says the soul never dies then they're not going by scripture because the scripture at Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul that is sinning dies. Numbers 31:19 shows that anyone who has killed a Soul must camp outside the camp. These are just two scriptures that show the Soul isn't immortal but instead it dies. The human body that breathes oxygen, drinks water and eats food is a Soul. The Soul of man isn't something distinct from the human body but instead the human body is a Soul. Whenever someone talks about the Soul separating from a human body they are no longer talking about the Soul in the Bible, which is the human body but instead are referring to pagan/false religion, because the pagans or false religion have always denied death but instead say death is a doorway to another plain of existence.
The words spirit and soul spoken about in the scriptures are not the same thing. As I said the soul is the human body that needs oxygen and water and food to continue living and the word spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals so the spirit in man isn't some conscious being but instead is the life force that animates earthly souls whether those souls are humans or animals. It's breathing oxygen that sustains the spirit or active force. When all the land animals and humans drowned in the flood of Noah's day their breath was cut off and they all died. All the land souls whether human or animals died.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I'm not saying that, he is. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46. I believe Jesus, don't you?

Jesus doesn't deny death, and no scripture that God inspired to be written down in his book, including all the sayings that Jesus said while on earth doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7. However you saying, " I'm not saying that, Jesus is," shows either you are completely ignorant of the scriptures or you're an outright liar. Whichever one it is you're making out Jesus to be a liar by you saying, "I'm not saying that, he is."

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Matthew, thank you for reminding me again of the two general segments of Sheol. Paradise did move out of Sheol however, to a spiritual 'safe haven' with Christ, since his resurrection...

I would say that your spirit returns to God, not your soul. If we define the soul => spirit (animation power and identity) + physical body, then your physical body that depends on oxygen of course cannot occupy the heavenly realm. Later we will have another body, suited for our own spirit in the New Jerusalem united with other and Christ...to something quite different indeed that I cannot fully understand.

The scripture we always need to keep in mind is the one of how the True God YHWH created the first man, Adam. No other scripture is going to contradict Genesis 2:7. If anyone reasons on any scripture in a way that their reasoning contradicts Genesis 2:7, then that imperfect person/persons reasoning is in error. Genesis is very clear that if the breath of life(spirit) isn't in a flesh and blood human body, then that living soul or living person doesn't exist. So for anyone to reason on any scripture that it is the spirit in the flesh and blood human body or it is the spirit out of the flesh and blood human body that is the living soul or living person their reasoning is contradicting Genesis 2:7. The breath of life(spirit) that's in human beings is the same breath of life(spirit) that is in animals.

 

[Brakelite]

The scripture we always need to keep in mind is the one of how the True God YHWH created the first man, Adam. No other scripture is going to contradict Genesis 2:7. If anyone reasons on any scripture in a way that their reasoning contradicts Genesis 2:7, then that imperfect person/persons reasoning is in error. Genesis is very clear that if the breath of life(spirit) isn't in a flesh and blood human body, then that living soul or living person doesn't exist. So for anyone to reason on any scripture that it is the spirit in the flesh and blood human body or it is the spirit out of the flesh and blood human body that is the living soul or living person their reasoning is contradicting Genesis 2:7. The breath of life(spirit) that's in human beings is the same breath of life(spirit) that is in animals.

The same reasoning may be applied to other doctrines, nearly all of which have their 'genesis' in Genesis. Eternal torment being also false being in close association with the same concept as described above... Immortality belonging only to God. Same could be said for marriage and the purpose for which man and woman were made... To make others, and anything outside of that paradigm simply doesn't work and is a distortion of God's purposes and a mockery of His word. And then there is that really gnarly issue wherein almost the entirety of Christianity is in error. But we shall leave that for other threads... Goodness knows there's enough of them.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The same reasoning may be applied to other doctrines, nearly all of which have their 'genesis' in Genesis. Eternal torment being also false being in close association with the same concept as described above... Immortality belonging only to God. Same could be said for marriage and the purpose for which man and woman were made... To make others, and anything outside of that paradigm simply doesn't work and is a distortion of God's purposes and a mockery of His word. And then there is that really gnarly issue wherein almost the entirety of Christianity is in error. But we shall leave that for other threads... Goodness knows there's enough of them.

Yes Genesis 2:7 makes it very clear that false doctrines that say human beings have souls, or that says the spirit in man is some intelligent being in man that goes back to God at death, those doctrines are not biblical doctrines because they contradict Genesis 2:7. Scriptures do not contradict each other, it's the way people reason on the scriptures and who come up with nonbiblical doctrines such as, hellfire doctrine, and doctrine of immortality of the soul, that contradict scripture.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes Genesis 2:7 makes it very clear that false doctrines that say human beings have souls, or that says the spirit in man is some intelligent being in man that goes back to God at death, those doctrines are not biblical doctrines because they contradict Genesis 2:7. Scriptures do not contradict each other, it's the way people reason on the scriptures and who come up with nonbiblical doctrines such as, hellfire doctrine, and doctrine of immortality of the soul, that contradict scripture.

Not really about the topic bro, but have you heard from Brother Rondo lately?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not really about the topic bro, but have you heard from Brother Rondo lately?

Can't say I have heard of someone named Rondo

 

[Robert Gwin]

Can't say I have heard of someone named Rondo

The brother that initiated this thread Barn. He was quite regular in posting, but seemed to stop suddenly. Really enjoying the convention, hard to wait till Sunday to view it of course, so I cheated. Really great Sunday morning session.