Can the Soul Die?
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Davy
Well-Known Member
You obviously have not studied the Isaiah 25:5-9 Scripture where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the idea of 'death swallowed up in victory' (1 Corinthians 15:54). In that Isaiah Scripture God is hinting at the 'change' at the 'twinkling of an eye' that Paul taught as being for ALL NATIONS AND PEOPLES.
So men's tradition that the resurrection is for only Christ's Church doesn't actually agree with God's written Word, and that even though Apostle Paul himself said that we "all" shall be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51). And if you say that doesn't apply to the wicked, there again you only show your following a tradition, because Jesus Himself showed in John 5:28-29 that there will be a "resurrection of damnation", meaning even the wicked dead are going to be in resurrection bodies, the same type body Christ's Church will be in at their resurrection.
God's written Word says:
1. the saved in Christ will be in resurrection bodies
2. the saved still alive when Jesus comes will be 'changed' to the resurrection body
3. there will be a resurrection for the wicked dead that are raised on that day also, per John 5:28-29 according to Lord Jesus.
So what about the wicked that are still alive on earth on that day of Christ's coming when that 'change' happens? How can the wicked dead also be raised to the "resurrection of damnation" on that day, but the wicked still alive won't be changed? Your false tradition (which indeed is a Pop doctrine among the Christian Church), suggests that the wicked still alive will either be all destroyed on that day, or will stay in flesh bodies after Jesus' return. It also suggests that Christ's Church AND the wicked dead raised to the "resurrection of damnation" will be the only ones in a resurrection body (a "spiritual body" according to Apostle Paul). NO, that's not what Scripture is pointing to...
The Scriptures as a whole is pointing to the time when Lord Jesus returns, that ALL peoples alive on earth will be changed to a body of incorruption, (i.e, the "spiritual body" which Paul taught for the resurrection). And the idea that the wicked dead aren't raised from the dead until after the Rev.20 "thousand years" is a myth based on fleshy thinking, because Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that BOTH, the resurrection of the Just and the resurrection of the unjust, happen on the day of His second coming (which starts His "thousand years" reign).
What's the difference in that future time then? The "dead" will still have dead souls, being without Christ Jesus. It's that simple. They will be in the resurrection spiritual body, a body of incorruption, just like us, BUT their souls will still be in a liable to perish condition, not putting on 'immortality'. This is why only the 1st resurrection will not be subject to the "second death", but the wicked "dead" will be, even while they are raised to the body of incorruption also.
And NO, the 1611 KJV Bible is definitely NOT a POOR TRANSLATION. That's a stupid idea, because the later modern Bible translations aren't even based on the same Bible manuscripts as the KJV! The modern versions are based on Westcott & Hort's corrupt 1880's manuscripts that THEY themselves translated! (The video Bridge To Babylon reveals this with strong evidence as to what Westcott & Hort did with deceiving the world).
Nor have you gone into the Greek of what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 verses about the resurrection, because it involves 4 different Greek words showing that TWO kinds of changes must happen to put on immortality in Christ Jesus. The wicked go through only the first change to a resurrection body, but their soul stays in a liable to perish condition throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
So what's the meaning of the Greek for the following KJV 1 Corinthians 15:53 words:
1. "corruptible"
2. "incorruption"
3 "this mortal"
4. "immortality"
Davy
Well-Known Member
The "second death" of Rev.20 we are told is the casting into the future "lake of fire". It means destruction (see Psalms 37).
The "lake of fire" is not the abode of the wicked called 'hell' (haides).
The "lake of fire" in The Old Testament Books is compared to a perpetual burning garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem, called the valley of Hinnom. That is what Lord Jesus compared it to.
Per the end of Rev.20, the abode of the wicked, hell, and the concept of death, go into that "lake of fire" and are destroyed, forever. This is why we are told in Rev.21:4 there will be no more death.
We have to allow God's written Word to shape our understanding. So the more of God's written Word you know, the better picture of God's Plan you will have in the mind.
hello Davy,
But wasn’t it just a part of the lake of fire and not forever according to a scripture?
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their
part
will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.””
Revelation 21:8 NASB1995
Does having a part in this mean destruction?
But wasn’t it just a part of the lake of fire and not forever according to a scripture?
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their
part
will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.””
Revelation 21:8 NASB1995
Does having a part in this mean destruction?
Well 'obviously' neither have you studied Isaiah 25, because it is talking of God ruling from Mount Zion, on the earth, ruling over humans. There is no mention of people being changed into spirit beings.
Paul's letter to the Corinthians was addressed to Christians only, not to everyone in the world. In chapter 15 he addresses his "brothers" in Christ. Therefore it is only Christians who will be changed into spirit beings.
1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):
Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.
Romans 8 (WEB):16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;
17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.
17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.
Only Christians, as adopted sons of God, will inherit God's kingdom, and be joint heirs with Jesus, our head. This is something new which Paul reveals - 1 Corinthians 15:51 (WEB):
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
which applies to Christians only, who are changed to receive the divine nature. It applies only to those whom God calls to become members of the body of Christ:
2 Peter 1 (WEB):
3) seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue;
4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
It's based on a misunderstanding of "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" (Revelation 20:5). It means that they didn't have eternal life until after they had lived through the 1,000 years, during which they are brought back to human perfection, and after the final testing when Satan is released to test them - only the faithful who don't side with Satan will be granted eternal life; those who fail the test will die again (second, and eternal, death). This is the "resurrection of judgement" mentioned in John 5:29 - a long period of trial ending with a judgement of worthiness for eternal life.
The poor translation I was referring to was just the translation of the Greek word krisis which the KJV renders as 'damnation' rather than 'judgement'. Strong's describes it as:
decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law)
The Online Bible Greek Lexicon says:
1) a separating, sundering, separation
1a) a trial, contest
2) selection
3) judgment
3a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
3a1) esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
3b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
5) right, justice
1a) a trial, contest
2) selection
3) judgment
3a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
3a1) esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
3b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
5) right, justice
Any part of death is death! Fire and brimstone is symbolic of utter destruction - no matter which part of the fire you end up in.
"Their part" could also be translated as "their portion", "their share", or "their lot".
Yes. Satan is symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, symbolising that he will be destroyed:
(Heb 2:14) ... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Davy
Well-Known Member
Oh, so you think Christ is going to gather us to Heaven in the CLOUDS to live! Nah, that is man's fairy tale. Maybe you also think Lord Jesus is coming to gather us prior to the "great tribulation" He warned about too? Nah, that's not written in God's Word either. Are you a follower of those ideas?
We know what the Bible tells us, that the fate of those referred to as symbolically being thrown into a large (lake sized) fire is that they will perish, i.e. they will be destroyed - which is a second, and permanent, death, and when we die our thoughts perish (Psalms 146:4).
The whole Bible is about God saving us from eternal death (ceasing to exist) so that we might instead live forever:
Romans 6:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Matthew 10:28) ... fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [fire].
Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (WEB):
then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
What Paul is describing is similar to Jesus' ascension (we follow in his footsteps):
When he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 2 1:9)
Jesus is not living in the clouds (see John 14 quote below), and neither should we expect to live in the clouds! Paul was saying we shall forever be with Jesus, not that we shall forever remain up in the air amongst clouds.
Yes, I believe that Jesus will come for his bride before the great tribulation, because that is what the Bible tells us, especially in the book of Revelation, but it is also alluded to in the Old Testament, e.g. Psalms 27:5 (WEB):
For in the day of trouble, he will keep me secretly in his pavilion. In the secret place of his tabernacle, he will hide me. He will lift me up on a rock.
John 14 (WEB):
2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.
John 14 (WEB):
2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.
ThePuffyBlob
Well-Known Member
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
what do you think isn't the answer definitely YES
what do you think isn't the answer definitely YES
Pythagorean12
Active Member
then the same for animals, which are also "living souls" who have the same breath
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Exactly. Because everything that exists is both of and from God the Creator.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You mean that's all The Bible Scripture there is about the event of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints?? God forbid, no, it isn't. The Acts 1:9-12 and Zechariah 14 Scripture gives us MORE INFORMATION of that event. We are told that Lord Jesus "shall so come in like manner" as He ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:11).
How did Lord Jesus ascend per the Acts 1 Chapter?
Where did Lord Jesus ascend to Heaven from per the Acts 1 Chapter?
do the angels have this breath of life?
but the cherubim have four faces, like 3 animals and like a man -- and they saw God later create these things and then put His breath in them
they were amazed!!
we need to be reminded that we are not for ourselves, but for others
=]
speaking of ascending, remember also:
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on — it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”
(Judges 13:17-23)
And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on — it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.”
(Judges 13:17-23)
and about ascending & descending:
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds.
(Acts 10:9-12)
(Acts 10:9-12)
all these animals descended from heaven -- meaning clearly, they were in heaven
they are resurrected just as we are -- all living souls, every creature in which is the breath of God!
