Can the Soul Die?
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What makes you think that I was attempting to list every verse in the Bible that refers to Jesus' return for the Church?! I wasn't.
The Zechariah 14 passage is not about Jesus' return for his Church. It is about later events when God fights for Israel after they have been attacked by "all nations" - the time of the great tribulation. The Church won't be around for that:
(1Th 1:10) and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 5:9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
He ascended unobserved by the world, observed only by the 11 Apostles.
The Mount of Olives (Olivet). Why the quiz? We're going off on a tangent here!
The answer is 'yes':
Ezekiel 18:4,20 (WEB): The soul who sins, he shall die.
Matthew 10:28 (WEB): Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Because you didn't stay on the topic about the "asleep" saints. You instead immediately went to quoting about the saints still alive being gathered, which is the 2nd group of saints Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Lot of Pre-trib Rapture Theory folks do what you did, showing they don't really understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter.
Oh... so you DO... hold to the FALSE Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory! No wonder you deny the Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Jesus' coming to gather His Church and start His future reign in Jerusalem with His saints.
There is only ONE... coming by Christ Jesus written of in all of God's Word. It is written in several Bible Books and passages, but they are ALL... about the same event on the day of His future return on "the day of the Lord" to gather His Church and defeat His enemies. And the time order of His coming to gather His Church is clearly given by Him in His Olivet discourse, which your Pre-trib doctors lie and tell you is for the Jews, and not us.
1. The 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter only shows 'how' Christ's Church is gathered, both from heaven ('asleep' saints) and those of us still alive on earth. That is all that Chapter reveals. It doesn't even reveal the time of when that happens, so Pre-trib theorists cannot... claim it does. The gathering description stops with the Church in the clouds with Jesus.
2. Zechariah 14 shows the day of Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord", which is when He and His fight His enemies on earth at Armageddon per Revelation 16 and Revelation 19. It confirms His ONLY return to this earth like the angels said in Acts 1, that He shall come in like manner as He ascended to Heaven, which was from the Mount of Olives. Thus per God's Word, we are given a very direct and easy to understand Message of how Lord Jesus left this world, and returns to this world, involving the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem.
3. Zechariah 14 shows that when Jesus returns, His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and He brings ALL... the saints with Him there. That is a CONTINUATION of the gathering Paul spoke of in the clouds, showing where the gathered saints destination is to be, i.e., ON EARTH, TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES WITH JESUS.
4. This is why Lord Jesus told His faithful Church they will reign with Him, ON EARTH (Revelation 5:9-10), and not up in the clouds like your false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of man teaches, which is nothing but having the Church 'hanging' in suspension in the sky!
That false doctrine is another LIE showing Judaism is behind the creation of it, since they wrongly believe that God's heavenly abode is up in the sky around the earth. No... the 'heavenly' dimension will be revealed right here on earth, to all souls after that "day of the Lord". The world to come is going to be a "spiritual body" earth age on the earth, not one of John Darby's false Dispensationalist ideas of the nation of Israel on earth in resurrected flesh, and the Church living up in the sky!
Pythagorean12
Active Member
the cherubim:
As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle. Thus were their faces. Their wings stretched upward; two wings of each one touched one another, and two covered their bodies.
(Ezekiel 1:10-11)
chiefest of angels. created before lions, before oxen, before eagles, before men.
and then Genesis 1:1.
the angels watched God create the earth and stars, and then create animals from dust, and put His breath in them, so that they became living souls.
the cherubim watched God create lions, and make them living souls.
they watched God create oxen - they had never seen such a thing! - and make them living souls.
the cherubim watched God create eagles from dust, breathe into them, and make them living souls - absolutely new!
then the cherubim saw God create man from dust and also make him a living soul
what did the cherubim think???
all of the Bible, the angels are watching, too. and they were made before any of the animals, and the animals were made before us.
the angels saw Satan their prince and federal head. they saw Satan fall. they saw all this before God ever made animals and oceans and plants. long before God made man.
and the angels watched all of Genesis 1-3. they were there. they preceded it.
what did the cherubim think when they saw God make individual creatures living souls that had the same face as one of their 4? they gloried!
we are testimony to angels. they witness us. to angels who saw Satan fall, who knew sin, before we were ever created.
some of what God does through us, He does in order to teach angels.
it ain't all about us. we're late-comers.
Actually the subject we were discussing was not about the asleep saints. You stated, "Oh, so you think Christ is going to gather us to Heaven in the CLOUDS to live! Nah, that is man's fairy tale", and that is what I replied about. Neither you or I mentioned anything about asleep or dead Christians.
No, I don't believe the "FALSE" Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory, I believe the TRUE message of the Bible! See Revelation chapters 5 and 6. The Church is resurrected and in heaven before Jesus opens the seven seals and God's wrath is poured out on the earth, when "the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:17).
The reason I don't believe Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' returning for the church is because that is not what it is about! Zechariah 2 WEB):
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3) Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
3) Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
That's nothing to do with Jesus returning for the church - it's not a description of the rapture and there is no mention of the saints being changed and taken up into heaven! Jesus returning for the church, and Jesus coming to fight for Israel and pour out the wrath of God, are two different events which do not occur at the same time.
Evidently you're wrong about that! But we're going way off the supposed topic of this thread, which is "Can the soul die?".
Yes the only Israelites in 2000 years are Born again Christians who are worthy of that Title.
To call anyone who claims to be a Jew being or claiming to be an Israelite is the work of the Devil in fact.
Jesus said Nathaniel was a True Israelite, that settles it ! and remember who else was worthy of such a Name and had it bestowed on him by an Angel, Jacob !
Clouds in this means Majesty ! He comes in his Majesty and it's Spiritual power that in lightens the Soul to Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. flesh and blood can not deliver, just as the power in Jesus Christ came through the Holy Spirit in fact that enlighten the Soul. it was then that the disciples knew who Jesus Christ truly was in fact. Saul got the message and became Paul through the Holy Spirit. you see the dedication of them Saved in Christ. Remember St Stephen ! he was full of the Holy Spirit in fact. that's why he did as he did, he was 100% devout to duty in Christ Jesus, a true Saint !
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, yeah I did mention how many on man's Pre-trib Rapture Theory like to quote the part of 1 Thessalonians 4 about being raptured, while leaving out the fact that Paul said Jesus will bring the 'asleep' saints with Him when He comes.
And Pre-tribbers also like to leave out or try to change Zechariah 14 that reveals Jesus returning to the Mount of Olives with ALL His saints when He comes to gather His Church.
But you are taught to deny that Zechariah 14 Scripture, because it certainly DOES occur on the last day of this world, which is when Jesus comes to gather His Church. Jesus said so too, in the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.
I have to say it, but you are spiritually 'drunken' on man's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory. You cannot even use common sense to understand that Apostle Peter showed all of man's works are burned off this earth on the "day of the Lord", which means impossible for the beast kingdom to be in power when that happens! And the Zechariah 14 has Jesus returning on that "day of the Lord". How come you can't put two and two together on that?
I know why you can't. It's because instead of studying God's Word asking The LORD Himself for understanding in Jesus' Name, you instead are heeding what men... say; your spiritual drunkeness like Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 5 applies to you because of your heeding the leaven doctrines of men.
No, I'm fairly sure you didn't mention anything about asleep or dead Christians. I've checked again. The first mention you make of 1 Thessalonians 4 is in your reply #446, just after you accused me of not staying 'on the topic about the "asleep" saints'. I had quoted verse 17, but I didn't mention anything about asleep/dead Christians, and neither had you up to that point. So I was right, the topic we were discussing up to that point was not about asleep Christians, and you were wrong about that.
But nevertheless, looking at 1 Thessalonians 4 (WEB):
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
So it is saying that Jesus will return for the Church suddenly and quickly, with a shout and a trumpet sound, and then the dead (those asleep in Christ) will be raised first, then those still alive wil be changed and gathered together with them and Jesus. So when those that are alive and changed meet Jesus, those that "have fallen asleep in Jesus" will be with him already. There is no mention of any tribulation in this passage, because this event takes place before the great tribulation! He goes on to say, 5:9 (WEB):
For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Christians are not appointed (destined) to go through God's wrath (the great tribulation and the decond death).
That's another topic. Let's not digress onto it in this thread. I had said that only Christians are promised a resurrection to the divine nature, to have a spirit being body, and you have dragged me away into trying to discuss whether the rapture is pre, mid or post tribulation! Start a new thread if you want to discuss that.
Can the Soul Die?
OP^
Short answer. Sure.
However understanding the difference between Physical death and Spiritual death, is necessary to arrive at a complete answer.
OP^
Short answer. Sure.
However understanding the difference between Physical death and Spiritual death, is necessary to arrive at a complete answer.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, it's the fact that you LEFT OUT the part in 1 Thess.4 about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him, which is always... part of the concept of His gathering His Church (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).
Well no, there is NOTHING there written in 1 Thess.4 that says that happens prior to the great tribulation. You've simply been wrongly taught to add that to that 1 Thess.4 Scripture. The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 versions emphatically show it happens AFTER... the tribulation.
The Pre-trib Rapture Theory of man you're on is no mystery to me. I've heard it all.
The 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse is a huge skip of the 1 through 8 verses. That's a huge problem, because Paul was pointing to the LAST DAY of this world on the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". Yeah, yeah, I know, your Pre-trib Rapture doctors lie and tell you that "day of the Lord" happens at the start of the tribulation and continues to its end. No, that "day of the Lord" happens ONLY... on the last day of this world, because 2 Peter 3:10 shows all of man's works are burned off the earth on that day.
The "wrath" Paul was pointing to is about God's Wrath upon the wicked on the 7th Vial, the battle of Armageddon being a symbol for it in Rev.16. That is the wrath we are not appointed to. It's the same wrath the wicked fear on the 6th Seal, and the 7th Trumpet.
No, Paul's idea of those who are spiritually drunken and sleep in the night is part of that 1 Thessalonians 5 Chapter you brought up. That is the condition man's Pre-trib Rapture Theory creates, it deceives its believers by presenting them a false protection of their flesh. Lord Jesus said don't fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul. He also said those who lose their life (for Him) will save it, and those who seek to save their life will lose it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Understanding what a “soul” is can help as well. Only then will we have the “complete answer”.
Souls are not spirits. We need to know the difference. And we need to know what death means......is it the opposite of life, or a continuation of it? What does the Bible say?
I woud say Death concretely is Separation from God, which can be Spiritual separation "and /or" Physical separation.
Also ... life OF the Body is it's Blood, already appointed to Physical death.
Also ... life OF the soul, is Gods Breath...
Also ... spirit of man, is a mans truth in his Heart...natural from sperm seed...or supernatural from Gods Seed.
Glory to God,
Taken
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What caused this separation from God? Was it inevitable, as in a naturally occurring thing that would end life on earth in some way (e.g. old age or sickness or accident?) Was there a natural cause of death ever mentioned to Adam and his wife?
Yes, physical death was mentioned to Adam and he informed his wife about it because she mentioned it to the devil. But what did this death of the body mean to them? Were they told of an afterlife of any sort?.....we know that they were told of a punishment, but was there an afterlife of heaven or hell in that?
True, Adam “became” a “soul” with the “breath (spirit) of life”.....But was he "given" a soul?
The basic meaning of the word "soul" in Hebrew is a “breather”.....which is why animals are called souls too...not that they will go to heaven when they die, but that they breathe the same air that we do and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Hmmmm...not sure where you get that idea from, but perhaps you could provide scripture to flesh that out....?
The spirit in man, as I understand it, is what animates him. It’s what animated Adam when God stared him breathing, and what causes a newborn to take its first breath and start its independent life.
The spirit (breath) leaves the body at death, but that is only the last breath exhaled. (Psalm 146:4) Death comes quickly after breathing stops.
“His breath ("rûaḥ") goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (ASV)
"rûaḥ" according to Strongs means..... "wind, breath, mind, spirit.
- breath
- wind"
Do souls need to think?
Always.....
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Death Separation from God...Cause?
...my understanding.
1) Big Picture- Gods design of Freewill.
2) Specifically - Mindful ability for logical thought process.
3) Specifically - Instincts ability of active and reactive nerve process.
4) Specifically - Experience result of Choices,
...a content result.
...a discontented result.
5) Ability - to Freely choose to continue with contented result.
6) Ability - to Freely choose to discontinue with discontented result.
7) Ability - to SEEK other options for a More contented result.
Inevitable, the natural body must die ?
1) Yes.
2) Because -
* a) a natural man, (body), freely choosing the Option to BE "WITH" God, must BE in Gods "likeness".
3) Ultimately, IN Gods "likeness", IS:
To have a body, like God.
To have a mind, like God.
To have a soul, like God.
To have a spirit, like God.
( Expressly, NOT GOD, but "like" God.)
* b) That is mankind having the 'tools' (design of man) TO hear, learn, decide, pick, choose, desire, to BE "like" God...or not.
* c) The MYSTERY is: "God already knows" our "choices", LONG before "we MAKE our choices".
* d) God has "already" prepared a "place" For every individual, (with or without Him), long before, WE are aware, of "what or where" that place will be.
(A perhaps suitable analogy, is males and females, expecting to marry, long before they meet their mate, yet preparing ahead of time, as well, a married couple preparing a for a child, before having a child (who is unaware long before he is born...IF he will be WITH His parents, in a place they prepared, or if he will be separated from his parents...and later choose to go seek them.)
* e) An individual Freely Choosing to BE "like" God: OR "not like" God...
Has a promise from God, According TO HIS (free) WILL: WILL, (effected) BY His Supreme Authority and Power...
"CAUSE" every individual's "FREEWILL" choosing, desire....TO be manifested. (Ie come to pass, ie be effected).
Understanding "mentioned" to Adam & Eve?
No, not to my knowledge.
God gave Adam and Eve "KNOWLEDGE"...
God gave Adam and Eve "guidance".
Have "this", Do "this"... Enjoyment result.
Do "this"... Hardship, Negative result.
It's a "process", for ALL things.
Knowledge comes FIRST.
(Trying, picking, deciding, testing, comes next)
Understanding comes AFTER.
Wisdom Comes AFTER (for some), to continue doing the same and experience discontent, or change direction and experience contentment.)
God Bless,
Taken
Yes, they were told...IF you do "this" you will die.
What did that mean to them?
IMO, the same thing it would mean to a little child.
(Because, Adam & Eve were "created" with Adult body's, yet had babe like minds, without having gained knowledge and experience a human growing from baby to adult gains.)
I would expect a little child (who has never heard, seen a dead thing) to understand "to die", to mean, "they can never again see, talk to, hear, be with, their mommy and daddy".
Unrealistic for us to KNOW, "WHAT exactly" Adam knew...
Adam was "created", "OUTSIDE" of the Garden. (We do not know how long Adam was outside of the Garden, what he saw or experienced outside of the garden, if anything. Or IF, he understood to Die, meant, banished from the garden, and sent back outside of the garden.)...
Which IS what resulted.
(God was IN the Garden...and they were separated from God, being Send outside of the Garden, where their is no account to my knowledge of Adam or Eve HEARING God again.)
Gen 2:
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
God Bless,
Taken
I think that should have been Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.
Ecclesiastes 3 (WEB):
19) For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.
20) All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
20) All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
