Can there be obedience where there is a lack of trust?

[Truth]

Everybody loves Jesus, right? A man that reached out to a woman scorned. A man that touched the lepers and healed them. A man that wept. A man that held His silence in the face of mockers and scorners. A man of righteous judgement. A man that would never ask us to do the unthinkable. The inconceivable.

Our Christian counselor set before me. Her profession being to help a broken girl sort out the tangled mess inside her head. The biggest mess being: why would I turn to a God that promotes the oppression of women, and promotes abuse and slavery as if a person becomes nothing more than a piece of cattle? Why would I turn to this God that obviously placed my gender at the lowest place out of some sort of punish? I sat baffled as our female counselor quoted in every session: "perfect love cast out fear".

"What about the God of the Old Testament?" I asked her.
Her response being, "My advice, avoid the God of the Old Testament. Don't go there. I don't. Just focus on Jesus."

Just focus on Jesus. The tender, loving man that is our savior.
The truth is: the God of the Old Testament is our savior.
"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

Hebrews 4:15
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

James 5:11
[11] Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Not pitiful in strength. But pitiful in being full-of-pity and tender mercy. This is the One true God of the Old Testament. They are One and the same.

Hebrews 1:2-3
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

There are some really hard truths in the Old Testament.

Zechariah 11:16-17 KJV
[16] For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. [17] Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Job 12:16
[16] With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

God raised the shepherd that would leave the flock and not set the prisoners free.
But He also raised the shepherd that would. 1 Peter 2:25 "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

Now, I ask you since God raised the Shepherd that would leave and not feed the flock and also the Shepherd that would...which was God that gathered His sheep...Is God good?

Is it good that God "prepared" the crucifixion?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

That means all scripture even those really hard verses. We are all faced with a decision to make... Do we believe and trust that God is always good, even in the face of the unthinkable? Abraham trusted and believed that God is good. We can reason why Abraham did it, but still, when God told Abraham to go fetch the wood...Abraham went and got the wood. Abraham knew God was and IS always "good" even in the face of the unthinkable.

Genesis 22:2-13
[2] And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. [3] And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. [4] Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. [5] And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. [6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. [7] And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? [8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. [9] And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. [10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. [11] And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. [12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. [13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Another act of obedience in the face of the unthinkable:

Genesis 21:10-11
[10] Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. [11] And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

Genesis 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice, for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Abraham did not doubt God's goodness. Do you?
Do you believe God is good always, even in the face of the unthinkable?
There is no "monster" of the Old Testament, only our lack of understanding and trust that God is always good. Consider 1 Corinthians 3:18 and how it contradicts everything man and this world says, "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."

With God, for a man to be wise he must first become a fool.
Everybody loves Jesus.
It is God they hate.
Do we love and trust and believe that God is good, IN THE FACE of the unthinkable.
Would we gather the wood and place our son on the altar...
trusting God is good even when we may not understand.
Can there be obedience where there is a lack of trust?

Simply Put, I would rather believe and trust in the God of the whole Bible, and at the End find out that He did not exist! rather than reject the God of the Bible, and in the End realize that He Did Exist!

 

[Helen]

Simply Put, I would rather believe and trust in the God of the whole Bible, and at the End find out that He did not exist! rather than reject the God of the Bible, and in the End realize that He Did Exist!

Amen..ditto...and so said all of us...

 

[101G]

What if the legs were sawed through by 99%? Trust is a learned experience. If your parents dropped you frequently as a child would you trust them to pick you up? People equate trust with faith, but in reality trust follows faith and must be learned.

I like that, "What if the legs were sawed through by 99%?".... I almost roll out of the chair. that's a good one. this is why I like this forum. it will make you think.... LOL, and laugh sometimes. ok. now, to answer that one, "ASK" and it will be given unto to... (smile). ask, because we walk NOT by SIGHT but by faith..... lol. hey, had to say something.

#2. "If your parents dropped you frequently as a child would you trust them to pick you up?" so that what happen to one's legs 99% sawed through, from all that dropping.

#3. I agree to a point. one can trust without learning when it comes to God. God is a FACT. example the king of Nineveh when Jonah told the king to repent. or the gentile centurion who said just speak the word.

but I'll give you Benefit of the doubt here.

PCY.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You might have misunderstood me.
I said I believe Paul is in agreement with Jesus.
Jesus said we are to DO to remain in the Kingdom after initial salvation...
Paul exhorts us in many verses to DO in order to be worthy of our calling, as you have said.

I merely ended by saying that if there WERE a difference between them, I'd choose to listen to Jesus. Some say Paul is of Grace and Jesus is of Works and that these are two different concepts because Jesus was of the O.T. and Paul made the theological and soterioligical understandings of the N.T.

GodsGrace, maybe you and I are not that far apart? You want others to see Paul didn't preach a different gospel. I want others to see Jesus didn't preach a different God.

I am so sorry for the "seething" post. It was a poor attempt to convince you to not throw any verses out because there may be something there. I'll admit, I'm not familiar with the ways man may have corrupted the word.

 

[Truth]

You may be right. In no way am I claiming you are not. My only goal is to encourage you even closer to God then you already are, even if I am the one that ends up being the one encouraged closer by you. Do not seethe a kid in his mother's milk seems important since it is in His word three times. By mistake? Maybe.

Deuteronomy 14:20-21
[20] But of all clean fowls ye may eat. [21] Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

"You shall not eat anything that dieth of itself" ...Jesus did that. He laid down His own life.

That you may give the meat to the stranger in your gate that he may eat, or you may sell it to the alien. Speaks of HIS flesh given to the strangers and aliens.

Seethe: "to ripen"
Hebrew: בּשׁל
Transliteration: bâshal
Pronunciation: baw-shal'
Definition: A primitive root; properly to boilup; hence to be done in cooking; figuratively to ripen: - {bake} {boil} bring {forth} is {ripe} {roast} {seethe} sod (be sodden).
KJV Usage: seethe (10x), boil (6x), sod (6x), bake (2x), ripe (2x), roast (2x).

Where do we get "milk" from the Spirit of God. Where do we get meat. Is it possible God commanded them not to do something in the holding off the "rippen" "seething" of a kid in its mother's milk because the act was reserved for a special purpose: prophetic of Jesus Christ "seethed" in "milk" the Spirit.

Still want to throw it out, that is your choice.

The Hebrew's were not to Boil a Kid In It Mothers Milk, Because it was a Pagan Fertility Ritual, still practiced by some in Lebanon, Now Orthodox Jew's say that because it is written three times, one must not eat meat and Dairy at the same time, One must not cook meat with Dairy, and that if you do you can not even prophet from it, like even feeding it to your dog, When Abraham entertained the three messengers when they came to him while sitting in the door of His Tent, He asked Sarah to make bread, and went to get a fated calf, and served the Lord curds!!!! DAIRY

 

[101G]

Paul was truly the Apostle to the Gentile, and He taught the Truth within the parameters of the Gospel. But as you say!! The words of Our Savior should Take Precedence, For there is only One Master, the rest including us are Servants!

Correct, spoke only what the Holy Ghost allowed. if he said anything on his own, but with approval he stated it. example, 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment".
but the rest was of God in the Gospel.

PCY.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No. Jesus' own brothers initially rejected Him and the same people who cried out Hosanas to Him, cried out crucify Him in front of Pilate. He remains an object of hatred by the majority of the world's population.
Trust is a learned behavior, but faith comes by hearing the word of God. Gideon is a prime example of learning trust. With God all things are possible.

You are right! I have read the same verses as you. The OP may have been a fail and the true intention of it lost. I messed that one up. The reference was more to those that say "I love Jesus" yet associate Jesus with fuzzy warm feelings and as asking nothing of us...when He asked for more. I have been greatly blessed by the OT. I wouldn't steer anyone away from it.

 

[Truth]

Yes, but would you follow what you don't trust? Do you trust the God of the Old Testament? Is so, why? Are there any verses of the Old Testament you throw out because they don't line up with our perception? If so, why do you throw them out?

Faith and Trust are Synonymous, So If Faith come's by hearing the Word than Trust also must come by the hearing, which through experience's from our Savior, brings Love, and our Savior says many time's, If You Love Me Keep My Commandment's, which would be Obedience!!

 

[Helen]

You are right! I have read the same verses as you. The OP may have been a fail and the true intention of it lost. I messed that one up. The reference was more to those that say "I love Jesus" yet associate Jesus with fuzzy warm feelings and as asking nothing of us...when He asked for more. I have been greatly blessed by the OT. I wouldn't steer anyone away from it.

No..don't say that
The OP was not 'a fail'...you write well, with much more patients and diligence than I do!!
We all have things that bother us..mine id those that can only 'see' Jesus as the gentle Jesus meek and mild...yet cannot see Him as in Revelation 1 which IS ... The revelation OF Jesus Christ. ..which are the first five words of the book of the Revelation. Some people insist in call it the book of revelations with an S, but it is not...

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen"

It doesn't sound like the warm and fuzzy picture that so many paint Him.
This is whom we will see, these is the feet we will fall down before...

It was a good worthy opening post.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Faith and Trust are Synonymous,

Not really. Gideon heard the word of God and tested Him. In the testing he learned to trust Him. This was pretty much true of Moses who looked first at himself and his inadequacies, yet he obeyed and learned that he could trust God. Obedience is driven by either fear or love, and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (I would say that the love of the Lord is wisdom's completion.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Hebrew's were not to Boil a Kid In It Mothers Milk, Because it was a Pagan Fertility Ritual, still practiced by some in Lebanon, Now Orthodox Jew's say that because it is written three times, one must not eat meat and Dairy at the same time, One must not cook meat with Dairy, and that if you do you can not even prophet from it, like even feeding it to your dog, When Abraham entertained the three messengers when they came to him while sitting in the door of His Tent, He asked Sarah to make bread, and went to get a fated calf, and served the Lord curds!!!! DAIRY

Stores in the NY metro area that have Jewish clientele usually bag dairy separate from meat. "Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel."

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Yes, but would you follow what you don't trust? Do you trust the God of the Old Testament? Is so, why? Are there any verses of the Old Testament you throw out because they don't line up with our perception? If so, why do you throw them out?

Trust?
I am very simple.
I do not have blind faith.
Jesus said to do certain things....I did them ..... they...worked!
Life is simple for me...He said give him my burdens...I did..every single one of them..
Seek the Kingdom of Heaven first...i did...he was right... all else comes.
Ask for bread...you get bread.
Say to the mountain (tough issue) and it moves...
Paul said be anxious for nothing...and all fell into place like a baker spreading frosting.

I don't get missed up with too many things of the OT except Be still and Delight in the Lord.

Many here would not believe my life living in this magical Kingdom of His.

 

[Truth]

Not really. Gideon heard the word of God and tested Him. In the testing he learned to trust Him. This was pretty much true of Moses who looked first at himself and his inadequacies, yet he obeyed and learned that he could trust God. Obedience is driven by either fear or love, and the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (I would say that the love of the Lord is wisdom's completion.)

I believe both are true, If you look up the definition of trust, it will relate to Faith. and if you look up the definition of Faith, it will relate to trust, figuratively speaking, they are synonymous.

Stores in the NY metro area that have Jewish clientele usually bag dairy separate from meat. "Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel."

Yes because you see Abraham served the Lord, pretty much a cheese burger, and that was except-able to God!

 

[pia]

Many here would not believe my life living in this magical Kingdom of His.

Yes it is a huge difference between 'mental assent' to something, and 'living' that something.....Saying one believes, or acting on those beliefs......Nice to hear

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all. well it was a red letter date in history yesterday. everyone on the forum got along real well, we all had a little fun, I know I did. and there was no knocking off of each other head. it was a good day on the forum. Thank God. now to the business at hand.

"What about the God of the Old Testament?" I asked her.
Her response being, "My advice, avoid the God of the Old Testament. Don't go there. I don't. Just focus on Jesus."

Just focus on Jesus. The tender, loving man that is our savior.
The truth is: the God of the Old Testament is our savior.
"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

This is on point, VJ, I commend you on this post. the God of the OT is Jesus the Christ. AG in post #29 confirm this, and is correct to point out that this is a Revelation of Jesus the Christ, GOD almighty in flesh. this same Jesus Christ that John saw in the New Testament is the same Revelation Daniel saw in the Old Testament. read Daniel 10:1-6, especially verses 5 & 6. it's almost word for word as to John description. what Daniel just received was a vision of the ONLY TRUE God, the Holy Spirit, JESUS, glorified in flesh. which is the beginning of the NEW CREATION in God, Christ Jesus, he who is the FIRST of all CREATION. other words, John and Daniel who both was in tribulation or as the bible calls the beginning of sorrows was at the end of or near the end of their tribulation period. in Daniel time, their persecution from the known world physically. in John's and our time from the know world also. see Matthews 24:8 and Mark 13:8. but read before and after each verse.

What strike me about both visions, and what the Lord Jesus said in both Matthews 24 and Mark 13 concerning the end times is this. "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom". notice it said Nation, not Nation(s) with the s at the end. that means a nation divided within itself. supportive scripture, Isaiah 19:2 "And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom". this is what happening to america today, a divided Nation, this is exactly what the Lord said, a NATION against itself. people are looking for WWIII, well it's in your own backyard.

Please don't take this as some prophet of doom scenario, ok. no, I'm not predicting ANYTHING. just pointing out what the Lord said, ok. Let me say this again, so that I'm clear, I'm not predicting ANYTHING. but he did leave us some comforting words, Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only". so my advice, "stay prayed up". amen.

so my point is this, you can trust the Lord Jesus, he's the same, yesterday, today, and forever more.

PCY.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What strike me about both visions, and what the Lord Jesus said in both Matthews 24 and Mark 13 concerning the end times is this. "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom". notice it said Nation, not Nation(s) with the s at the end. that means a nation divided within itself. supportive scripture, Isaiah 19:2 "And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom". this is what happening to america today, a divided Nation, this is exactly what the Lord said, a NATION against itself. people are looking for WWIII, well it's in your own backyard.

Consider it is not about America at all. What about the rest of the world, they have just as much of God's attention as America? What is God's focal point? What takes place in Genesis, as the Spirit moves? The division of light from the dark. I also found the no "s" odd but it could also mean: dark rises against light. What is evil against what is good. A separation as you said in homes, in backyards.

Exodus 32:9-10
[9] And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: [10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Genesis 12:1-3
[1] Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: [2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: [3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Nation against Nation.
Kingdom against Kingdom.
Division of light and dark. That would seem to be God's focus...Not America.

 

[amadeus]

There is no "monster" of the Old Testament, only our lack of understanding and trust that God is always good. Consider 1 Corinthians 3:18 and how it contradicts everything man and this world says, "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."

Amen!

 

[101G]

Consider it is not about America at all. What about the rest of the world, they have just as much of God's attention as America? What is God's focal point? What takes place in Genesis, as the Spirit moves? The division of light from the dark. I also found the no "s" odd but it could also mean: dark rises against light. What is evil against what is good. A separation as you said in homes, in backyards.

Hi VJ, true it's not just about America only, but the reason why I say it that way is because, just as Israel was his own, a leader in the world as a NATION, likewise so is America. so God will clean up his own house first before he clean up the other houses/nation. we as a Christian NATION, and the leader in the Christian world, as the apostle Peter said, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?", 1 Peter 4:17 (kjv). so we're first, we get judge first.

Exodus 32:9-10
[9] And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: [10] Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

yes, the same thing happen to Jeremiah the prophet. God told him not to pray for the people. this is the FIRST time in the bible where God someone not to pray for, or intercessor for someone else. Jeremiah 7:16 "Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee". because the people did not trust God, even they knew him, but did not trust, nor OBEY him. two verses before 16. Jeremiah 7:14 "Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh". where the tent was to meet God, Jeremiah 7:4 "Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these". they had perverted the Temple, thinking, like us today, we can just showed up church and paid our tithes, and think we have done our duty. no. we have just wasted our time, and God.

Genesis 12:1-3
[1] Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: [2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: [3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

yes, we must separate ourselves from the world. 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty". so people think "separate" means leave a plce or a country. no, don't touch the unclean thing. other words don't do the things the Lord command not to do. one can leave one country and find evil in another country.

hence the saying, "THIS EVIL GENERATION". the generation started with Cain, and this Generation of Evil will only end when the Lord returns. amen.

Conclusion, Can there be obedience where there is a lack of trust?, no, only if it's FAKE "news" , Oh I'm sorry, if it's FAKE "TRUST".... .

PCY.

 

[Helen]

Good and interesting thread...I'm reading it, but I don't find I have anything much to add.

 

[Taken]

Yes, but would you follow what you don't trust? Do you trust the God of the Old Testament? Is so, why? Are there any verses of the Old Testament you throw out because they don't line up with our perception? If so, why do you throw them out?

To me Trusting God is a decision we make.
Once an individual can commit himself to Trusting God; Whatever Word of Scripture he hears, he can Trust to Believe; thus setting him on a path of Learning About God, while not yet in Understanding according to God.

Trust the God of the OT?
Absolutely. He is the Same God of the NT.

Old Testament to throw out?
No.
Why? Because it is rich in History.
Old Testament to apply to me?
No.
Why? Because I am not one new to a new earth, a Hebrew or a Jew, to whom the OT was provided.
Because after 4,000 years of men populating the Earth, God sent His Word to Earth, in the likeness as a man, to Fulfill the OT, and reveal things not before known to mankind, which such things are fully sufficient for a man to become saved and born again while in his mortal life.

God Bless,
Taken