CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[Enoch111]

No one that is saved can ever fall away because of sins of the flesh. Why? Because they believe, have faith in, trust in, have confidence in the fact that Jesus has already paid for all the sins of the world on the cross.

This is correct. The epistle to the Hebrews was written TO WARN Hebrew Christians that they should not return to Moses and the Old Covenant, and anyone who did so would be trampling on the finished work of Christ and the meaning of the New Covenant. That is what "falling away" means in this context, and that meaning is supported in the epistle to the Galatians.

Judaizers who had believed on Christ were teaching that Christians must be Torah observant in order to be saved, and Paul had to refute that very strongly.

But after giving them the warnings, Paul had this to say: But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Heb 6:9).

 

[Triumph1300]

The epistle to the Hebrews was written TO WARN Hebrew Christians that they should not return to Moses and the Old Covenant, and anyone who did so would be trampling on the finished work of Christ and the meaning of the New Covenant.

True.

And if they did....the results would be?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes these are the 'go to' verses to get the believers back into a fallen state. Makes me want to ask the question, who here has not deliberately sinned after becoming a Christian?

(Heb. 10:26-27) is understood when you recognize there is no other sacrifice than Jesus Christ. Contrary to the sacrifices of the Old Testament which had to be brought continually. See (Heb. 10:18) The sin spoken of here is the going back to the Mosaic system and forsaking the assembly of Christians. The believer does come under the judgement of God here, but it is not a loss of salvation. Note it says in (10:27), "which shall destroy the adversaries." Not the believer, but that which is destroying the believer.

This is about returning to a life of willful sin - NOT merely stumbling into occasional sin as EVERY Christian does (Rom. 7:14-25, 1 John 1:8).

When you return to a life of willful sin - you return to being an "adversary" of God . . .

(2 Peter 2:20-22) is all about false teachers. They were never saved. Their nature never changed. The dog and sow were cleaned up but their nature never changed. No loss of salvation here.

The loss of salvation is a tool used by many to threaten believers with in hopes that it keeps them in line. They do not trust the Holy Spirit in giving them and keeping them in the liberty they have in Christ.
Stranger

This is absolutely false - and the whole idea of "Epignosis" completely destroys your argument here.

False teachers cannot have "Epignosis" of Christ if they were ALWAYS false teachers. This is speaking born again, converted followers of Christ who BECAME false teachers.

Everybody who is born again has an Epignosis of Christ - and ONLY those who have an Epignosis of Christ are truly born again.

 

[BreadOfLife]

An eternal one to be received again is a repeat performance. No matter how you slice it, those under the old system of goats and bulls are "receiving" sacrifices for sins "again" just as the Catholics are receiving the eternal sacrifice made "present" again in the Mass to "receive again".

WRONG.

First of all - Rev. 13:8 assures us that Christ's sacrifice is an ETERNAL sacrifice.
Heb. 7:25 says that he FOREVER lives to make intercession for us.

These verses do NOT imply a "repeat" performance. It is ONGOING.
That is precisely what the Mass presents to us - His ETERNAL sacrifice.

So basically, any Catholic sinning again is unsaved. Your argument makes the confessional booths invalid, right? See how applying scripture in the wrong way can oppose scripture plainly stated otherwise elsewhere?

WRONG again.
YOUR problem is that you don't pay attention.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

"ENTANGLEDand OVERCOME" by sin and defilement. This means that they returned to a life of willful sin - NOT that they merely stumbled into occasional sin as ALL Christians do.

The only one "opposing" Scripture here is YOU . . .

How do you apply these verses below?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

AMEN.
These are beautiful verses about security - for those who REMAIN faithful.

What YOU and other OSASers do is quote these types of verses and ignore the rest, which tell us that we must REMAIN FAITHFUL. ALL Scripture must harmonize - but YOU make the grave error of cherry-picking Scripture to suit your own needs.

How can you not see you are opposing yourself for being in the Catholic Church when obviously it is clouding your reading His words to mean?

In other words - you can't answer the question.
That's what I thought . . .

 

[Stranger]

This is about returning to a life of willful sin - NOT merely stumbling into occasional sin as EVERY Christian does (Rom. 7:14-25, 1 John 1:8).

When you return to a life of willful sin - you return to being an "adversary" of God . . .

This is absolutely false - and the whole idea of "Epignosis" completely destroys your argument here.

False teachers cannot have "Epignosis" of Christ if they were ALWAYS false teachers. This is speaking born again, converted followers of Christ who BECAME false teachers.

Everybody who is born again has an Epignosis of Christ - and ONLY those who have an Epignosis of Christ are truly born again.

The willful sin is forsaking the Christian assembly. The 'For' in (Heb. 10:26) connects back to verse (25). God will bring the believer under some judgement, but he will not lose his salvation.

Ah, yes, I remember the 'epignosis' wars. How silly. (2 Peter 2:22) is clear. The dog is still a dog. The sow is still a sow. No change of nature. Believers are never dogs or pigs. You can hollar about 'epignosis' all you want. Their nature was not changed. It is not a picture of one who lost their salvation. It's a picture of a false teacher.

'Epignosis' has nothing to do with being born-again. These false teachers deny the Lord. (2 Peter 2:1). They cannot be born-again.

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

Sorry, Stranger, you talk a lot, but you say nothing.
Good luck.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The willful sin is forsaking the Christian assembly. The 'For' in (Heb. 10:26) connects back to verse (25). God will bring the believer under some judgement, but he will not lose his salvation.

Ah, yes, I remember the 'epignosis' wars. How silly. (2 Peter 2:22) is clear. The dog is still a dog. The sow is still a sow. No change of nature. Believers are never dogs or pigs. You can hollar about 'epignosis' all you want. Their nature was not changed. It is not a picture of one who lost their salvation. It's a picture of a false teacher.

'Epignosis' has nothing to do with being born-again. These false teachers deny the Lord. (2 Peter 2:1). They cannot be born-again.

Stranger

HUH??
There isn't only ONE willful sin. Living in willful sin means that you live in rebellion against God. It is returning to your former way of life - just like Jesus's followers did in John 6:66.

As for your last comment in RED - you can repeat this inane mantra all you want but you can never make it come true.
"Epignosis" is a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of Christ. As I stated earlier - it is as intimate a knowledge as a bride and groom consummating their marriage

 

[Nancy]

An eternal one to be received again is a repeat performance. No matter how you slice it, those under the old system of goats and bulls are "receiving" sacrifices for sins "again" just as the Catholics are receiving the eternal sacrifice made "present" again in the Mass to "receive again".



So basically, any Catholic sinning again is unsaved. Your argument makes the confessional booths invalid, right? See how applying scripture in the wrong way can oppose scripture plainly stated otherwise elsewhere?



How do you apply these verses below?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.



How can you not see you are opposing yourself for being in the Catholic Church when obviously it is clouding your reading His words to mean?

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.


"If you are saved, you are saved once for all. If you resist the truth, and do not agree with God that you are a sinner then, yes, you remain in your sins"... Is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees here? They remained in unbelief because they believed that they were already "righteous" They claimed that they already knew the truth, hence, rejecting Jesus....They were never saved to begin with, so there was no salvation to lose. JMHO

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.

"If you are saved, you are saved once for all. If you resist the truth, and do not agree with God that you are a sinner then, yes, you remain in your sins"... Is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees here? They remained in unbelief because they believed that they were already "righteous" They claimed that they already knew the truth, hence, rejecting Jesus....They were never saved to begin with, so there was no salvation to lose. JMHO

There is NO Scripture that supports your text in RED - unless we remain faithful by cooperating with God's grace.

We must take ALL of Scripture in context and stop cherry-picking it . . .

 

[Stranger]

HUH??
There isn't only ONE willful sin. Living in willful sin means that you live in rebellion against God. It is returning to your former way of life - just like Jesus's followers did in John 6:66.

As for your last comment in RED - you can repeat this inane mantra all you want but you can never make it come true.
"Epignosis" is a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of Christ. As I stated earlier - it is as intimate a knowledge as a bride and groom consummating their marriage

Yes, you are the drama queen. Bold red and bold black. Yet your drama changes nothing. (John 6:66) is understood in light of (John 6:65). "...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Those who left were never born-again. Never given by the Father. See, that was simple.

No, you put my comment in RED. Not me. Please don't be dishonest. Yes I know what you said earlier. And what I said earlier is that (2 Peter 2:22) is clear. The dog is still the dog. The pig is still the pig. No change in nature. Your 'epignosis' is becoming a 'pignosis'. It is still a pig.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, you are the drama queen. Bold red and bold black. Yet your drama changes nothing. (John 6:66) is understood in light of (John 6:65). "...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Those who left were never born-again. Never given by the Father. See, that was simple.

No, you put my comment in RED. Not me. Please don't be dishonest. Yes I know what you said earlier. And what I said earlier is that (2 Peter 2:22) is clear. The dog is still the dog. The pig is still the pig. No change in nature. Your 'epignosis' is becoming a 'pignosis'. It is still a pig.

Stranger

"Epignosis" was used in this passage for a reason. The words "Oida" or "Gnosis" could have been used IF the writer was only trying to convey an intellectual knowledge.
HOWEVER - the Holy Spirit inspired him to use the word EPIGNOSIS because it means so much more.

I realize that this is difficult for you to swallow because it obliterates your entire house of cards when it comes to the phony, man-made invention of OSAS - but them's the Scriptural breaks . . .

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

WRONG.

First of all - Rev. 13:8 assures us that Christ's sacrifice is an ETERNAL sacrifice.

One that does not bear repeating by receiving that one time sacrifice for sins again.

Heb. 7:25 says that he FOREVER lives to make intercession for us.

The bread nor the Eucharist makes any intercessions for us. The Son of God does.

These verses do NOT imply a "repeat" performance. It is ONGOING.

Therefore you had place that one time sacrifice for sins that is to be eternal to be receiving again and again and again as ongoing, proving that His blood is on par with the blood of goats and bulls.

That is precisely what the Mass presents to us - His ETERNAL sacrifice.

By receiving Him again and again makes it an ongoing sacrifice as if the first time was not good enough to put that Holy Spirit in you when you had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.

WRONG again.
YOUR problem is that you don't pay attention.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

"ENTANGLEDand OVERCOME" by sin and defilement. This means that they returned to a life of willful sin - NOT that they merely stumbled into occasional sin as ALL Christians do.

The only one "opposing" Scripture here is YOU . . .

Not really. You are doing it again below. You had posted that you believe and then you retracted what you just said in that quote below, by placing faith in you, in your Catholic Church, and in your works in catholicism rather than faith in Jesus Christ alone.

AMEN

.
These are beautiful verses about security - for those who REMAIN faithful.

What YOU and other OSASers do is quote these types of verses and ignore the rest, which tell us that we must REMAIN FAITHFUL. ALL Scripture must harmonize - but YOU make the grave error of cherry-picking Scripture to suit your own needs.

In other words - you can't answer the question.
That's what I thought . . .

It is no wonder why you believe you can lose your salvation when you divide your hope for salvation between Jesus Christ and your efforts in the Catholic Church.

Running that race is for discipleship... to be received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House; if you run it to obtain salvation, then you are denying Him as your Savior that you had been saved when you had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.

Jesus Christ dwelling in you....that is forever for how you had obtained eternal life by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. He brings you Home; not you.

And for running that race, it is by looking to Jesus Christ, the author & finisher of our faith, to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be received by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor. It is not by looking to the Catholic Church. No way.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.


"If you are saved, you are saved once for all. If you resist the truth, and do not agree with God that you are a sinner then, yes, you remain in your sins"... Is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees here? They remained in unbelief because they believed that they were already "righteous" They claimed that they already knew the truth, hence, rejecting Jesus....They were never saved to begin with, so there was no salvation to lose. JMHO

if the Catholic believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, scriptures testify to the promise that they are saved, but because the works of catholicism being built on that foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ are denying Him, they are at risk of being left behind unless they leave the Catholic Church and just go to Jesus Christ in living that reconciled relationship with God.

Evangelicals like the Graham Crusade is in that same type of iniquity. They preach the gospel, but they give an altar call that is the very opposite of the gospel and so like catholicism, refuses the believers to enter into that rest by this saying "If you are not sure you are saved, come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ." Think about that. What happened to "when you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you are saved"?

So many believers look to gaining assurance of salvation by keeping that commitment to follow Christ. That is the same thing as coming short of that rest in Jesus Christ. Even Catholics has answered that altar call at the Graham's Crusades and look where that got them. A religious mindset not borne of faith in Him as their Savior that they are saved for having believed in Him. That is why when Catholics respond to the altar call, there is no difference because they had flipped from the gospel they had presented to the opposite at that altar to make a commitment to gain assurance of salvation by.

Believers need to ask Jesus to set them free from all commitments and promises and the works of catholicism to rest in Him that they are saved and to ask Jesus for help to enable them to trust Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him as the just can only follow Him by faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only way we can get to know Him and the power of His resurrection when we stop doing the best we can and lean on Him all the time for following Him since we can only live that reconciled relationship with God THROUGH Jesus Christ.

 

[Stranger]

"Epignosis" was used in this passage for a reason. The words "Oida" or "Gnosis" could have been used IF the writer was only trying to convey an intellectual knowledge.
HOWEVER - the Holy Spirit inspired him to use the word EPIGNOSIS because it means so much more.

I realize that this is difficult for you to swallow because it obliterates your entire house of cards when it comes to the phony, man-made invention of OSAS - but them's the Scriptural breaks . . .

You ignore the context. You ignore (2 Peter 2:1). You ignore the absence of a change of nature in (2 Peter 2:22). You build this loss of salvation doctrine on one word, 'epignosis'.

The use of this word doesn't teach the new birth as you claim. It doesn't teach that one that has such knowledge is a saved individual. It does teach one has a knowledge of God.

All men have the knowledge of God in them. Yet they reject God in spite of that knowledge. See (Rom. 1:1-32) Note especially (1:28) which is your go to word. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a a reprobate mind..." These are not believers but they had 'epignosis'.

And again, (Rom. 1:32), "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." These are not believers, but they had 'epignosis'.

Just like your false teachers in (2 Peter 2:1-22) had 'epignosis'. But they were false teachers, and never saved. You can't change the leopards spots. If it's a dog, it's a dog. If it's a pig, it's a pig.

No loss of salvation here.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

One that does not bear repeating by receiving that one time sacrifice for sins again.

The bread nor the Eucharist makes any intercessions for us. The Son of God does.
Therefore you had place that one time sacrifice for sins that is to be eternal to be receiving again and again and again as ongoing, proving that His blood is on par with the blood of goats and bulls.

Apparently, YOU have a real problem understanding what "Eternal" and "Forever" mean.
Every time we stumble and call out to the Lord in repentance for forgiveness and mercy - we are taken BACK to Calvary. BACK to His eternal sacrifice.

THIS is why Rev. 5:6 and Rev. 13:8 show the Lamb (Christ) in Heaven SLAIN.

By receiving Him again and again makes it an ongoing sacrifice as if the first time was not good enough to put that Holy Spirit in you when you had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.

Not at ALL.
As Heb. 7:5 assures us - He stands FOREVER to make intercession for us before the Father.

We Catholics don't receive Jesus only ONCE - but EVERY chance we get . . .

Not really. You are doing it again below. You had posted that you believe and then you retracted what you just said in that quote below, by placing faith in you, in your Catholic Church, and in your works in catholicism rather than faith in Jesus Christ alone.

It is no wonder why you believe you can lose your salvation when you divide your hope for salvation between Jesus Christ and your efforts in the Catholic Church.

Running that race is for discipleship... to be received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House; if you run it to obtain salvation, then you are denying Him as your Savior that you had been saved when you had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.

Jesus Christ dwelling in you....that is forever for how you had obtained eternal life by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. He brings you Home; not you.

And for running that race, it is by looking to Jesus Christ, the author & finisher of our faith, to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be received by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor. It is not by looking to the Catholic Church. No way.

The Bible CLEARLY calls us "CO-WORKERS" (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1)
We must cooperate with His grace - or LOSE it ALL.

Did you learn NOTHING from the Parable of the Talents?? Those who invested (cooperated) gained much. However - the one like YOU who did NOTHING lost EVERYTHING.

You don't get to sit on your fanny and do nothing and expect God to be pleased with you.
We MUST cooperate with His grace or be condemned like the goats (Matt. 25:31-46). Faith is about OBEDIENCE - not just "believing" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You ignore the context. You ignore (2 Peter 2:1). You ignore the absence of a change of nature in (2 Peter 2:22). You build this loss of salvation doctrine on one word, 'epignosis'.

The use of this word doesn't teach the new birth as you claim. It doesn't teach that one that has such knowledge is a saved individual. It does teach one has a knowledge of God.

All men have the knowledge of God in them. Yet they reject God in spite of that knowledge. See (Rom. 1:1-32) Note especially (1:28) which is your go to word. "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a a reprobate mind..." These are not believers but they had 'epignosis'.

And again, (Rom. 1:32), "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." These are not believers, but they had 'epignosis'.

Just like your false teachers in (2 Peter 2:1-22) had 'epignosis'. But they were false teachers, and never saved. You can't change the leopards spots. If it's a dog, it's a dog. If it's a pig, it's a pig.

No loss of salvation here.

Stranger

Ummmmm, talk about "ignoring" context . . .

YOU have been shown DOZENS of times on MULTIPLE threads that Epignosis is not simply an intellectual knowledge - but a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, not unlike the consummation of a marriage.
You have been shown that the consensus of PROTESTANT Scholarship agrees with this - yet you keep going back to your moronic little idea that it is simply an intellectual knowledge.

I can't say that I blame you because your ENTIRE OSAS charade is riding on this.
It's never easy to have to admit that you have been proven wrong - but that time has come for you . . .

 

[Stranger]

Ummmmm, talk about "ignoring" context . . .

YOU have been shown DOZENS of times on MULTIPLE threads that Epignosis is not simply an intellectual knowledge - but a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, not unlike the consummation of a marriage.
You have been shown that the consensus of PROTESTANT Scholarship agrees with this - yet you keep going back to your moronic little idea that it is simply an intellectual knowledge.

I can't say that I blame you because your ENTIRE OSAS charade is riding on this.
It's never easy to have to admit that you have been proven wrong - but that time has come for you . . .

As usual you ignore what I said. All you can do is shout 'epignosis'.

No, my understanding of the believers assurance of salvation does not ride on 'epignosis'. I simply have to address it because you lay such importance on it.

Hey, have some bread with that glass of whine.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

As usual you ignore what I said. All you can do is shout 'epignosis'.

No, my understanding of the believers assurance of salvation does not ride on 'epignosis'. I simply have to address it because you lay such importance on it.

Hey, have some bread with that glass of whine.
Stranger

I place so much importance on it because Scripture does.
The entire point of the passage rides on the fact that the person who has Epignosis of Christ can LOSE their secure position with God.

Your entire position is about YOU - not the truth. YOUR understanding is that Epignosis is not important for salvation - but Scripture disagrees with you . . .

 

[Dan57]

I believe "YES" any Christian can fall away.. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). This would seem to indicate that some Christians can lose faith.. And speaking from personal experience, I was a devout Christian for 5 years, fell away for 20 years, and then returned to the faith.

 

[Helen]

NO!
Fall away from the high calling...fall away from being an overcomes..but not fall away from Being a child of God.
Even the Prodigal son was still a son...even though he stank.