CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[APAK]

First of all - your entire house of cards rests on Epignosis - so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
Here is a little Protestant scholarship on this Greek term . . .

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Bottom Line: The passages I cited show a born again person - that is a person with Epignosis of Christ - can turn away and be LOST forever by his own doing.

You side stepped my queries to you, again as in the last paragraph. There was a clear question there. Do you agree with the conclusions I made drawn from your logic and meaning?

I don't think red is your color, bold underlined black is your style.

Thanks,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

You side stepped my queries to you, again as in the last paragraph. There was a clear question there. Do you agree with the conclusions I made drawn from your logic and meaning?

I don't think red is your color, bold underlined black is your style.

Thanks,

APAK

Because your questions are based on a false premise.

It's not about Catholics trying to be "good enough" or trying to DO enough. Those passages aren't about a Christian who stumbles into sin because that is something we ALL do. They are about rejecting God and returning to a life of willful sin.

 

[Stranger]

Yup - they ABSOLUTELY know God because they were born again in Christ - and NOW they reject Him.
This is called, "FREE WILL" - a Biblical concept that your ecclesial father John Calvin rejected.

Sad to see you go this far to protect your 'epignosis' argument. (Rom. 1:18-3-20) gives the picture of God's wrath revealed against unbelieving Gentiles and Jews. These are not saved. They know, but they are not saved. They are in unbelief.

Paul has just said in (Rom. 1:16-17), "....salvation is to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

So, Paul speaks firsts of Gods righteousness revealed by faith through the Gospel which results in salvation. (1:16-17). And He has more to say on that which he will pick up later in (3:21) But first he is going to show Gods wrath revealed from (1:18-320). These are Jew and Gentiles who have the knowledge of God but reject God. They are not saved. They are not born-again. But they have the knowledge of God. They however have no faith. They don't come by faith.

They have the truth, but they hold it in unrighteousness. Gods wrath is against them.

When Paul is done displaying God's wrath revealed, he take up again with Gods' righteousness revealed by faith. (3:21-22) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference."

So, your belief that (Rom. 1:18-320) is talking about those born-again, is this what you were taught, or did you just make it up to protect your precious 'epignosis' argument?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sad to see you go this far to protect your 'epignosis' argument. (Rom. 1:18-3-20) gives the picture of God's wrath revealed against unbelieving Gentiles and Jews. These are not saved. They know, but they are not saved. They are in unbelief.
Paul has just said in (Rom. 1:16-17), "....salvation is to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
So, Paul speaks firsts of Gods righteousness revealed by faith through the Gospel which results in salvation. (1:16-17). And He has more to say on that which he will pick up later in (3:21) But first he is going to show Gods wrath revealed from (1:18-320). These are Jew and Gentiles who have the knowledge of God but reject God. They are not saved. They are not born-again. But they have the knowledge of God. They however have no faith. They don't come by faith.

They have the truth, but they hold it in unrighteousness. Gods wrath is against them.
When Paul is done displaying God's wrath revealed, he take up again with Gods' righteousness revealed by faith. (3:21-22) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference."
So, your belief that (Rom. 1:18-320) is talking about those born-again, is this what you were taught, or did you just make it up to protect your precious 'epignosis' argument?

Stranger

And there you go again inserting your uneducated opinions about the word "Epignosis" - when the consensus of PROTESTANT Biblical scholarship rejects your idea that is is merely "knowledge."

Here's what YOUR fellow Protestant scholars say about the importance of the use of the word "Epignosis" and how it transcends simple "knowledge" to mean a FULL, COMPLETE and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of Christ.
As a matter of fact, as you will see below, the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament defines it as "Christian faith".

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly”(Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Bottom Line: The passages I cited show a born again person - that is a person with Epignosis of Christ - can turn away and be LOST forever by his own doing.

You have LOST this argument, but in your deep spiritual pride, you refuse to accept this Biblical truth from God.
GOOD LUCK with that . . .

 

[APAK]

Because your questions are based on a false premise.

It's not about Catholics trying to be "good enough" or trying to DO enough. Those passages aren't about a Christian who stumbles into sin because that is something we ALL do. They are about rejecting God and returning to a life of willful sin.

BOL,

As you said, willful sin s a life choice and life style. Although going further, it means much more. Scripture uses this word 'willful' to signify that this person is not a believer because they are absent of the spirit of God to constrain and teach them. They cannot sin just with their natural will, there is another within them. As believer you cannot remove the spirit once it is in you. These people sin our of their natural man or will, they have no other choice. There is no other 'voice' within them. It is their own will exclusively, operating in sin - thus it is called 'willful' sin.

It can only lead me to the conclusion that this verse is about a 'taste tester' of the spirit of God and his truth. They never actually committed and accepted God's gift. Yes, they did have full knowledge and experimental knowledge of the truth. You know we can always try or taste something without accepting it, right? THese people were of that kind. They bought itThey returned to their old life styles using their same natural will and continued in willful sin as they originally did back to the teaching of the Law.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL,

As you said, willful sin s a life choice and life style. Although going further, it means much more. Scripture uses this word 'willful' to signify that this person is not a believer because they are absent of the spirit of God to constrain and teach them. They cannot sin just with their natural will, there is another within them. As believer you cannot remove the spirit once it is in you. These people sin our of their natural man or will, they have no other choice. There is no other 'voice' within them. It is their own will exclusively, operating in sin - thus it is called 'willful' sin.

It can only lead me to the conclusion that this verse is about a 'taste tester' of the spirit of God and his truth. They never actually committed and accepted God's gift. Yes, they did have full knowledge and experimental knowledge of the truth. You know we can always try or taste something without accepting it, right? THese people were of that kind. They bought itThey returned to their old life styles using their same natural will and continued in willful sin as they originally did back to the teaching of the Law.
Bless you,

APAK

NOT possible.

First of all - Epignosis means a full and experiential (not experimental) knowledge. It is a "Perfect" knowledge. As I showed your friend Stranger - the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament goes so far to refer to it as "Christian Faith."

This does not connote a person who is simply "dabbling". The people in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 were people with an Epignosis of Christ - who were truly converted, born again people and fell away and returned to a life of rejecting God.

They didn't ALWAYS reject Him.

 

[Stranger]

And there you go again inserting your uneducated opinions about the word "Epignosis" - when the consensus of PROTESTANT Biblical scholarship rejects your idea that is is merely "knowledge."

Here's what YOUR fellow Protestant scholars say about the importance of the use of the word "Epignosis" and how it transcends simple "knowledge" to mean a FULL, COMPLETE and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge of Christ.
As a matter of fact, as you will see below, the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament defines it as "Christian faith".

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly”(Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Bottom Line: The passages I cited show a born again person - that is a person with Epignosis of Christ - can turn away and be LOST forever by his own doing.

You have LOST this argument, but in your deep spiritual pride, you refuse to accept this Biblical truth from God.
GOOD LUCK with that . . .

(Rom. 1:28,32) Please read post #63 again.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

(Rom. 1:28,32) Please read post #63 again.

Stranger

I already addressed this in post #49:

THANK YOU for proving my point.
The word used in this passage is "Epignosis":

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis),God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This passages shows how people who had a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge(Epignosis) of God fell away. They are even called "COVENANTBREAKERS", which implies that they had a COVENANT with Him.

This is exactly what I have been telling you now for several months on several threads and on HUNDREDS of posts. Born again people who have an Epignosis of God CAN fall away and be LOST.

Case CLOSED.

 

[Stranger]

I already addressed this in post #49:

THANK YOU for proving my point.
The word used in this passage is "Epignosis":

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis),God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This passages shows how people who had a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge(Epignosis) of God fell away. They are even called "COVENANTBREAKERS", which implies that they had a COVENANT with Him.

This is exactly what I have been telling you now for several months on several threads and on HUNDREDS of posts. Born again people who have an Epignosis of God CAN fall away and be LOST.

Case CLOSED.

Except the people addressed are not believers in (Rom. 1:18-3:20) . Read again post #63.

Your 'epignosis' argument doesn't stand up.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

(Rom. 1:28,32)

Stranger

Rom. 1:28,32 <---Speaking about UNbelievers.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rom. 1:28,32 <---Speaking about UNbelievers.

Except the people addressed are not believers in (Rom. 1:18-3:20) . Read again post #63.

Your 'epignosis' argument doesn't stand up.

Stranger

NOT according to YOUR KJV:
Rom. 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge (epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

According to this - they didn't RETAIN their full and experiential knowledge - or what the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament refers to as their "Christian Faith".
In other words - they abandoned it.

HOWEVER - let's assume that this passage is NOT talking about believers and you are correct. This STILL has no bearing on the ramifications of Epignosis in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27.
It would simply mean that the people in Rom. 1:28 DIDN'T have Epignosis - but the people in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 absolutely DO have it.

EITHER way - it connotes a truly converted, born again person.

 

[Stranger]

NOT according to YOUR KJV:
Rom. 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge (epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

According to this - they didn't RETAIN their full and experiential knowledge - or what the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament refers to as their "Christian Faith".
In other words - they abandoned it.

HOWEVER - let's assume that this passage is NOT talking about believers and you are correct. This STILL has no bearing on the ramifications of Epignosis in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27.
It would simply mean that the people in Rom. 1:28 DIDN'T have Epignosis - but the people in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 absolutely DO have it.

EITHER way - it connotes a truly converted, born again person.

Except the people in (Rom. 1:28,32) did have it. Scripture is clear here.

They didn't have salvation. Of course not. Which destroys your 'epignosis' argument.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Then how can you apply this warning below as one that you heed in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

You can't when you preach receiving Jesus again and again and again in hypocrisy as if not received. The practice of the Mass is denying His promise.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth........20..............and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So you are actually denying you had received Him the first time when you had believed in Him at the calling of the gospel each time you go to Mass.

So in effect, your Eucharist & wine are idols in receiving "Him" thus they are the antichrists for what antichrist means which is "instead of the Son".

That bread and wine is not the Christ. You would be hard pressed to prove that the definition of idolatry cannot be applied to that practice in Mass.

I don't know if the Lord will recover you from the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I can't see why He would have me continue discussing with you when all you are defending is the Catholic Church; and not the faith in Jesus Christ.

I was raised Catholic, right up to the 1st confirmation...I could not wait to be able to stop going to mass once I was of age to make up my own mind <---about age 12 I would say.
I still had God at the forefront of my mind, always. Well, He ripped me out of the CC and all I can say is wow and thank you Jesus for your ONCE for ALL sacrifice...I walked around my house for days and days not being able to stop saying "I see"! "I SEE now" "I SEE"!!! <--- yes, He opened my EYES and they were blind as a bat before that day, He is always good, and I ♥♥♥ Him! There is a lovely lady who is a well known and loved member on this forum who has had a very similar experience with the saying "I SEE, I SEE NOW" ♥
I wear a gold band on my left hand and it has Jesus engraved in it. (the ring also helps to ward off any come-ons at a community center I belong, lol---and let me tell you...ALL walks of life there..some of them say anything, no matter how lewd...they back right down though when reprimanded...in love. Their all poor, hard to love people sometimes but, God has taught me to and I miss them all-well most of them anyhow ) How could a single woman ask for a better provider or help meet but The Creator of the UNIVERSE!? Well, she couldn't and wouldn't! lol.
The Mass is my biggest beef with the CC- they crucify Him again, and again, and again, over and over and over--like they have to keep getting saved over and over again...SMH.
I certainly do not believe that all Catholics go to hell! No, but I would be very surprised to find out the ones who propagate erroneous doctrine for filthy lucre will NOT be there. The ones who totally remind me of wo Jesus is addressing in Matt 24... JMVVVHO lol j/k

 

[BreadOfLife]

Except the people in (Rom. 1:28,32) did have it. Scripture is clear here.
They didn't have salvation. Of course not. Which destroys your 'epignosis' argument.

Stranger

No - if they HAD it then the were just as "saved" as any other born again person.
If they LOST it - they they were LOST.

Whether YOU like it or not - we have a Free Will - and that free will lasts until we DIE.

 

[Mjh29]

No - if they HAD it then the were just as "saved" as any other born again person.
If they LOST it - they they were LOST.

Whether YOU like it or not - we have a Free Will - and that free will lasts until we DIE.

Yeah.... no.... No we don't. Your Will, My will. They are in no way free. We have Free AGENCY... but not free will.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was raised Catholic, right up to the 1st confirmation...I could not wait to be able to stop going to mass once I was of age to make up my own mind <---about age 12 I would say.
I still had God at the forefront of my mind, always. Well, He ripped me out of the CC and all I can say is wow and thank you Jesus for your ONCE for ALL sacrifice...I walked around my house for days and days not being able to stop saying "I see"! "I SEE now" "I SEE"!!! <--- yes, He opened my EYES and they were blind as a bat before that day, He is always good, and I ♥♥♥ Him! There is a lovely lady who is a well known and loved member on this forum who has had a very similar experience with the saying "I SEE, I SEE NOW" ♥
I wear a gold band on my left hand and it has Jesus engraved in it. (the ring also helps to ward off any come-ons at a community center I belong, lol---and let me tell you...ALL walks of life there..some of them say anything, no matter how lewd...they back right down though when reprimanded...in love. Their all poor, hard to love people sometimes but, God has taught me to and I miss them all-well most of them anyhow ) How could a single woman ask for a better provider or help meet but The Creator of the UNIVERSE!? Well, she couldn't and wouldn't! lol.
The Mass is my biggest beef with the CC- they crucify Him again, and again, and again, over and over and over--like they have to keep getting saved over and over again...SMH.
I certainly do not believe that all Catholics go to hell! No, but I would be very surprised to find out the ones who propagate erroneous doctrine for filthy lucre will NOT be there. The ones who totally remind me of wo Jesus is addressing in Matt 24... JMVVVHO lol j/k

I know this is going to anger you but YOU left the Catholic Church out of pure ignorance.

It's one thing to say that you simply didn't care for the Mass or found it "boring" or something other. HOWEVER, you are misrepresenting it which shows me that you DON'T know what the Mass is.

First of all - Jesus isn't "crucified" at the Mas - let alone, "over and over and over". This is either a big fat LIE on your part - OR simply that you are ignorant. Jesus's Sacrifice on Calvary is RE-presented for us. We are brought to Calvary at each mass.

His once for all Sacrifice is ETERNAL (Rev. 13:8) and He FOREVER stands before the Father to make intercession for us (Heb. 7:25).

Another clue that you were an ignorant Catholic is your reference to "1st Confirmation".
There is no "2nd" Confirmation - just the Sacrament of Confirmation . . .

 

[Stranger]

No - if they HAD it then the were just as "saved" as any other born again person.
If they LOST it - they they were LOST.

Whether YOU like it or not - we have a Free Will - and that free will lasts until we DIE.

They did have it. (Rom. 1:28,32) is clear. But they are not saved. (Rom. 1:18-3:20) is clear. Your 'epignosis' argument is DOA.

In other words, you want 'epignosis' to determine if one is saved or born-again. But it does not. Scripture proves you wrong but you simply ignore it and say if 'epignosis' is used then they must have been saved. But Scripture does use 'epignosis' concerning these who are not saved. It is not knowledge, it is faith. They had the knowledge, but they didn't have the faith.

Thus your (2 Peter 2:18-22) argument, to prove a loss of salvation for the believer, is null and void. Better cut your losses and find something else to try and get the believer lost again.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah.... no.... No we don't. Your Will, My will. They are in no way free. We have Free AGENCY... but not free will.

No - that's a man-made Calvinist invention.

What did Jesus say to Jerusalem when He arrived??
Matthew 23:37
Luke 13:34
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

God gave ALL of us a free will and THAT is how sin entered into the world.

John Calvin HAD to reject this in order for his 5 Points (T.U.L.I.P.) to work.
"Unconditional Election", my eye . . .

 

[Mjh29]

Exactly. They were not and indeed COULD NOT be willing. They do the will of "Their father, the Devil" [Jhn 8:44]. Our wills are enslaved to sin. We cannot make any choice that is not in some way tainted by our natures, as all of our thoughts are "only evil continually" [Gen. 6:5]

So no, this is not an invention of Calvinism. It is an invention of Scriptures.

 

[BreadOfLife]

They did have it. (Rom. 1:28,32) is clear. But they are not saved. (Rom. 1:18-3:20) is clear. Your 'epignosis' argument is DOA.

In other words, you want 'epignosis' to determine if one is saved or born-again. But it does not. Scripture proves you wrong but you simply ignore it and say if 'epignosis' is used then they must have been saved. But Scripture does use 'epignosis' concerning these who are not saved. It is not knowledge, it is faith. They had the knowledge, but they didn't have the faith.

Thus your (2 Peter 2:18-22) argument, to prove a loss of salvation for the believer, is null and void. Better cut your losses and find something else to try and get the believer lost again.

Stranger

Let me get this straight: From Post #60 and before - YOU claimed that these people DIDN'T have Epignosis.
NOW you are saying that they DID??

MY point has been that if YOUR Protestant KJV is correct - and the Rom. 1:28 says, "And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their knowledge (epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; - then they HAD Epignosis.

HOWEVER, since the term "retain" is NOT in the Greek, it merely says that they ". . . did not see fit to acknowledge (Epignosei) God . . ."

Either way - you LOSE.

If the verse says that they DIDN'T have Epignosis - this has absolutely NO bearing on the term "Epignosis". It simply means that they didn't have it - like the people in Rom. 11:22 and Heb. 10:26-27 did.

Look - the weight of evidence from Protestant scholarship is against you. These are Greek scholars who have given their lives to the study of the Greek manuscripts.
YOU, on the other hand, are just a little, angry anti-Catholic, posting on an obscure forum who doesn't have a linguistic leg to stand on.

I'll go with the experts . . .