CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[Stranger]

I place so much importance on it because Scripture does.
The entire point of the passage rides on the fact that the person who has Epignosis of Christ can LOSE their secure position with God.

Your entire position is about YOU - not the truth. YOUR understanding is that Epignosis is not important for salvation - but Scripture disagrees with you . . .

(Rom. 1:28,32)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I believe "YES" any Christian can fall away.. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). This would seem to indicate that some Christians can lose faith.. And speaking from personal experience, I was a devout Christian for 5 years, fell away for 20 years, and then returned to the faith.

That speaks of an apostate Christianity that leaves the true teaching about Jesus Christ.

If indeed you see yourself having lost your salvation what makes you think you got it back? There is nothing in the Bible that says once you have lost your salvation, then here are the steps to get it back.

Stranger

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

We Catholics don't receive Jesus only ONCE - but EVERY chance we get . . ..

Then how can you apply this warning below as one that you heed in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

You can't when you preach receiving Jesus again and again and again in hypocrisy as if not received. The practice of the Mass is denying His promise.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth........20..............and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So you are actually denying you had received Him the first time when you had believed in Him at the calling of the gospel each time you go to Mass.

So in effect, your Eucharist & wine are idols in receiving "Him" thus they are the antichrists for what antichrist means which is "instead of the Son".

That bread and wine is not the Christ. You would be hard pressed to prove that the definition of idolatry cannot be applied to that practice in Mass.

I don't know if the Lord will recover you from the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I can't see why He would have me continue discussing with you when all you are defending is the Catholic Church; and not the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then you don't fully understand religion

He understands it.
The N.T. teaches that loss of salvation is possible.
Faith leads to salvation.
No faith leads to no salvation..at any time and whenever it happens.

If FAITH is necessary to be saved, then when we lose faith we also lose our salvation.

The life is in Jesus. No Jesus, No life.

 

[GodsGrace]

That speaks of an apostate Christianity that leaves the true teaching about Jesus Christ.

If indeed you see yourself having lost your salvation what makes you think you got it back? There is nothing in the Bible that says once you have lost your salvation, then here are the steps to get it back.

Stranger

One that comes to God will NEVER be turned away.
Hebrews 6:4-6 has nothing to do with being turned away by God, but God being abandoned by the Jews.

In the very verses you love to post this is affirmed:
John 6:37
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

 

[Stranger]

One that comes to God will NEVER be turned away.
Hebrews 6:4-6 has nothing to do with being turned away by God, but God being abandoned by the Jews.

In the very verses you love to post this is affirmed:
John 6:37
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

I'm not sure why you address (Hebrews 6) I was responding to Dan57's post.

Yes, the one that comes to Christ, Christ will certainly not cast out. So how did Dan57 get cast out? Or how does he get back in?

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

Even the Prodigal son was still a son...even though he stank.

Yes, but he had to come back.
If he didn't come back he would have been lost.

 

[Dan57]

If indeed you see yourself having lost your salvation what makes you think you got it back? There is nothing in the Bible that says once you have lost your salvation, then here are the steps to get it back.

Anyone can lose faith and fall away, consider the Parable of the Sower; "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). So obviously, anyone can lose faith, but there's nothing in the bible that suggest they can't return, as was the point of the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Remember that Peter renounced Christ 3 times, but did not lose salvation. If straying means we can never return and regain salvation, I fear we are all in trouble. The step to salvation is John 3:16, and its not limited to a one time shot nor does it have an expiration date. jmo

 

[BreadOfLife]

(Rom. 1:28,32)
Stranger

THANK YOU for proving my point.
The word used in this passage is "Epignosis":

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This passages shows how people who had a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge (Epignosis) of God fell away. They are even called "COVENANTBREAKERS", which implies that they had a COVENANT with Him.

This is exactly what I have been telling you now for several months on several threads and on HUNDREDS of posts. Born again people who have an Epignosis of God CAN fall away and be LOST.

Case CLOSED.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then how can you apply this warning below as one that you heed in keeping the faith in Jesus Christ?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

You can't when you preach receiving Jesus again and again and again in hypocrisy as if not received. The practice of the Mass is denying His promise.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth........20..............and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So you are actually denying you had received Him the first time when you had believed in Him at the calling of the gospel each time you go to Mass.

So in effect, your Eucharist & wine are idols in receiving "Him" thus they are the antichrists for what antichrist means which is "instead of the Son".

That bread and wine is not the Christ. You would be hard pressed to prove that the definition of idolatry cannot be applied to that practice in Mass.

I don't know if the Lord will recover you from the teachings of the Catholic Church, but I can't see why He would have me continue discussing with you when all you are defending is the Catholic Church; and not the faith in Jesus Christ.

Thank you for posting those irrelevant verses. You may as well have posted the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man - because that one has nothing to do with what we were talking about, either . . .

Surprisingly enough - you ARE right about one thing:
Bread and wine are NOT the Christ.

They BECOME Him at Mass.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Thank you for posting those irrelevant verses. You may as well have posted the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man - because that one has nothing to do with what we were talking about, either . . .

Preaching to receive Jesus Christ again or the Holy Spirit again is rebuking the Mass, brother. Only irrelevant because you can explain what Paul was really warning about. So there.

Surprisingly

enough - you ARE right about one thing:
Bread and wine are NOT the Christ.

You say that and yet...below is the very opposite.

They BECOME Him at Mass.

Do you know what idolatry is? Making an inanimate object into a god to be worshiped? Why in the world would the Lord mimic evil in communion?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Preaching to receive Jesus Christ again or the Holy Spirit again is rebuking the Mass, brother. Only irrelevant because you can explain what Paul was really warning about. So there.

Receiving Jesus or the Holy Spirit isn't a one-time event. It SHOULD be a lifetime FILLED with such events.

Whenever we, as Christian stumble into occasional sin - we come back repentant and "re-fill" our tanks, so to speak, with the Holy Spirit and God's grace. If you're NOT doing this - then you're going about it ALL WRONG.

You say that and yet...below is the very opposite.
Do you know what idolatry is? Making an inanimate object into a god to be worshiped? Why in the world would the Lord mimic evil in communion?

Yup - I know what "idolatry" is - and it isn't worshiping God.

At the Last Supper - Jesus didn't say, "This is a piece of bread that only symbolizes my Body".
He said emphatically, "This IS my body."

This is the constant living belief of the 2000-year-old Christian faith.
It only "changed" for YOU guys when a few of you rejected it some 1500 years later.
MOST of your Protestant Fathers didn't. I wonder why MOST of you today DO . . .

Were THEY wrong??
Were THEY "idolators"??

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Receiving Jesus or the Holy Spirit isn't a one-time event. It SHOULD be a lifetime FILLED with such events.

Whenever we, as Christian stumble into occasional sin - we come back repentant and "re-fill" our tanks, so to speak, with the Holy Spirit and God's grace. If you're NOT doing this - then you're going about it ALL WRONG.

Do feel free to explain to me what Paul is warning about in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 then.

Yup - I know what "idolatry" is - and it isn't worshiping God.

At the Last Supper - Jesus didn't say, "This is a piece of bread that only symbolizes my Body".
He said emphatically, "This IS my body."

This is the constant living belief of the 2000-year-old Christian faith.

Since Jesus was there at teh Last Supper, He was not crucified yet for it to be what you say it is.

It only "changed" for YOU guys when a few of you rejected it some 1500 years later.
MOST of your Protestant Fathers didn't. I wonder why MOST of you today DO . . .

Were THEY wrong??
Were THEY "idolators"??

If you can't convince a fellow believer that they are not making the bread and wine for more than what it is to avoid idolatry, then you cannot convince them that you are doing what Jesus said to do communion for; in remembrance of Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do feel free to explain to me what Paul is warning about in 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 then.

Paul says NOTHING about receiving the Lord repeatedly.
He is warning against FALSE prophets who preach a different Christ.

This is apples and oranges . . .

Since Jesus was there at teh Last Supper, He was not crucified yet for it to be what you say it is.

Soooooo, Jesus was unable to perform a miracle??
Your lack of faith is ASTOUNDING . . .

If you can't convince a fellow believer that they are not making the bread and wine for more than what it is to avoid idolatry, then you cannot convince them that you are doing what Jesus said to do communion for; in remembrance of Him.

First of all - that's NOT what I asked.
I asked you if Luther and many of your other Protestant Fathers were wrong for their belief in the Eucharist. WERE they?

Secondly - I'm not sure that a person who rejects what Christ did and said could be called a "fellow believer" . . .

 

[Stranger]

Anyone can lose faith and fall away, consider the Parable of the Sower; "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). So obviously, anyone can lose faith, but there's nothing in the bible that suggest they can't return, as was the point of the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Remember that Peter renounced Christ 3 times, but did not lose salvation. If straying means we can never return and regain salvation, I fear we are all in trouble. The step to salvation is John 3:16, and its not limited to a one time shot nor does it have an expiration date. jmo

There is nothing in the Bible that says you can return.

Stranger

 

[APAK]

@BreadOfLife ..
Heb 10:26 again….

Let me drive your logic all the way home for you BOL. You have never really done this concerning this scripture. Let me act and continue your conversation as if I totally agree with your interpretation and assessment 100%, and it’s all true in what you said and meant by this scripture.

And further, let that Greek transliterated term Epignosis, for full and experimental knowledge, your crown jewel, really apply to more that the ‘taste testers’ of the spirit of God and his truth, as you believe they really are committed believers whereby God truly accepted them to faith and salvation previously. And even though many at that time were still on the fence between the Law and grace.

Now what are the conclusions, deductions or implications of your charge:

- That if a reborn committed person sins willfully that person automatically becomes un-reborn, somehow, and is a sinner and an unbeliever once again?

- Then if you become un-reborn, you then need to be recommitted (to a rubber room maybe) and hope God accepts you again and reinstalls his ‘spiritual software’ again to regeneration and kick-start your ‘living in sin’ heart to perfection once more? It can be called the jo-jo salvation process to perfection.

- You can never know if you are reborn or not, so you must prayer in earnest every day, do good works and hope for grace and God’s mercy? I think your religion perform these functions or encourages them already for one’s salvation. As one of your religion mates stated to me recently, you will know if you are saved only when you are dead.

Does this type of meaning of yours and the unescapable conclusions I’ve made sound like what the scriptures say concerning salvation. I for one do not think so BOL. If you tie all the 5 dozen or so verses concerning salvation and eternal life as a common thread, we can be sure of our salvation, today. I hope you truly find this way some day and soon.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[Stranger]

THANK YOU for proving my point.
The word used in this passage is "Epignosis":

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to RETAIN God in their KNOWLEDGE (Epignosis), God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This passages shows how people who had a FULL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge (Epignosis) of God fell away. They are even called "COVENANTBREAKERS", which implies that they had a COVENANT with Him.

This is exactly what I have been telling you now for several months on several threads and on HUNDREDS of posts. Born again people who have an Epignosis of God CAN fall away and be LOST.

Case CLOSED.

Yes, I know it is 'epignosis'. That is why I gave it. But, these are not a people who are born-again as you claim. These are a people upon which the wrath of God is against because they hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18)

They reject God. They know the truth yet reject God.

So much for your 'epignosis'.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Yes, but he had to come back.
If he didn't come back he would have been lost.

Aaah, so if he didn't come back he would no longer be a son in a pig pen then.
How does one get un-son'ed?
Maybe a bastard son...a stinky son, but still a son.
It happens in real life too...but they are still sons and daughters.

But whatever... . . we will believe what we want to believe wont we. .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, I know it is 'epignosis'. That is why I gave it. But, these are not a people who are born-again as you claim. These are a people upon which the wrath of God is against because they hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:18)

They reject God. They know the truth yet reject God.

So much for your 'epignosis'.
Stranger

Yup - they ABSOLUTELY know God because they were born again in Christ - and NOW they reject Him.
This is called, "FREE WILL" - a Biblical concept that your ecclesial father John Calvin rejected.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife ..
Heb 10:26 again….

Let me drive your logic all the way home for you BOL. You have never really done this concerning this scripture. Let me act and continue your conversation as if I totally agree with your interpretation and assessment 100%, and it’s all true in what you said and meant by this scripture.

And further, let that Greek transliterated term Epignosis, for full and experimental knowledge, your crown jewel, really apply to more that the ‘taste testers’ of the spirit of God and his truth, as you believe they really are committed believers whereby God truly accepted them to faith and salvation previously. And even though many at that time were still on the fence between the Law and grace.

Now what are the conclusions, deductions or implications of your charge:

- That if a reborn committed person sins willfully that person automatically becomes un-reborn, somehow, and is a sinner and an unbeliever once again?

- Then if you become un-reborn, you then need to be recommitted (to a rubber room maybe) and hope God accepts you again and reinstalls his ‘spiritual software’ again to regeneration and kick-start your ‘living in sin’ heart to perfection once more? It can be called the jo-jo salvation process to perfection.

- You can never know if you are reborn or not, so you must prayer in earnest every day, do good works and hope for grace and God’s mercy? I think your religion perform these functions or encourages them already for one’s salvation. As one of your religion mates stated to me recently, you will know if you are saved only when you are dead.

Does this type of meaning of yours and the unescapable conclusions I’ve made sound like what the scriptures say concerning salvation. I for one do not think so BOL. If you tie all the 5 dozen or so verses concerning salvation and eternal life as a common thread, we can be sure of our salvation, today. I hope you truly find this way some day and soon.
Bless you,
APAK

First of all - your entire house of cards rests on Epignosis - so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
Here is a little Protestant scholarship on this Greek term . . .

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Bottom Line: The passages I cited show a born again person - that is a person with Epignosis of Christ - can turn away and be LOST forever by his own doing.