CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[ScottA]

I googled epignosis and found the following information: -

Epignosis is a progressive rock band made up of multi-instrumentalist Robert Brown and vocalist Tasha Brown.​

So do demons have their own rock band then? LOL

Rolling Stones, Black Sabbath perhaps.

 

[ScottA]

The demons absolutely had an Epignosis of God - and rebelled against Him.

BOTH Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 speak of people with an Epignosis of Christ and the dangers of them falling away and LOSING their security. These passages are NOT about demons - but about PEOPLE.

Indeed, your induction of "Epignosis" offered nothing. Whether people or demons, the point is moot.

But that was not the point. The point...is that the two above passages do not speak of God going back on His promise of salvation, but rather of men going back on actually receiving it. There are no do-overs. Which, even if a person thought they could receive Christ, die, have Christ live in their stead, then have Christ going back being the dead person they once were again - well, not only would that be ridiculous and impossible - God wouldn't do it.

"Once to die"...those are the rules - God's rules.

Thus, one cannot loose their salvation, nor can they gain it, then give it up. For if one is in fact saved...they are not their own to do with what they will. They gave that up...and if they didn't, they aren't. It's as simple as that.

 

[ScottA]

But back to the original post question:

The "falling away" is not a salvation question. That is putting the cart in front of the horse. Salvation is not the question, it's the answer...that is, it is the answer to the falling away...the answer to "the fall."

So...when we read "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed", etc...the question is not whether "the day of Christ has already come", but rather...has the fall already come? And Paul's reassurance was not to say that neither had come. But rather that, indeed, they both had come (as he himself was a witness), but that both the fall and the coming of Christ comes to men "each in his own order." That is what he said.

 

[BreadOfLife]

https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html

Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(5) And she brought forth . . .—Translate, And she brought forth a man child, who is to shepherd all the nations with (it is, literally, in) a rod of iron. There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ. The combination of features is too distinct to admit of doubt, it is the one who will feed His flock like a shepherd (Isaiah 40:12), who is to have, not His own people, but all nations as His inheritance (Psalm 2:7-9), and whose rule over them is to be supreme and irresistible.

Meyer's NT Commentary
The intention of this emphasis, which De Wette improperly denies, is not that of designating the child as victor over the dragon,[3064] but[3065] points to what is added concerning the child immediately afterwards; Ὃς ΜΈΛΛΕΙ ΠΟΙΜ., Κ.Τ.Λ. These words taken from Psalm 2:9 (LXX.), which are referred also to Christ in Revelation 19:15, make it indubitable that the child born of the woman is the Messiah;

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

Protestant theologian John MacArthur states that the child is Jesus and His being "caught up to God" is His ASCENSION.

Let’s see – SOME of your sources say the child is the Church.
Others say it is Jesus AND the Church.
The Protestants I presented say it is Jesus. What a ball of confusion.

And so goes the whimsical MESS that is Protestantism . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

poimainó: to act as a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poimainó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I shepherd, tend
Definition: I shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Revelation 2:27 V-FIA-3S
GRK: καὶ ποιμανεῖ αὐτοὺς ἐν
NAS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD
KJV: And he shall rule them with
INT: and he will shepherd them with

Revelation 12:5 V-PNA
GRK: ὃς μέλλει ποιμαίνειν πάντα τὰ
NAS: [child], who is to rule all
KJV: who was to rule all nations
INT: who is about to shepherd all the

Thanks for your useless dictionary definitions - but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the prophecies of Christ that I presented.

Try again . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed, your induction of "Epignosis" offered nothing. Whether people or demons, the point is moot.

But that was not the point. The point...is that the two above passages do not speak of God going back on His promise of salvation, but rather of men going back on actually receiving it. There are no do-overs. Which, even if a person thought they could receive Christ, die, have Christ live in their stead, then have Christ going back being the dead person they once were again - well, not only would that be ridiculous and impossible - God wouldn't do it.

"Once to die"...those are the rules - God's rules.

Thus, one cannot loose their salvation, nor can they gain it, then give it up. For if one is in fact saved...they are not their own to do with what they will. They gave that up...and if they didn't, they aren't. It's as simple as that.

WRONG, Scott.
The following definitions of Epignosis are ALL from Protestant scholarship.
You'll note that the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament even goes so far as to define it as "CHRISTIAN FAITH" . . .

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

 

[Heb 13:8]

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(5) And she brought forth . . .—Translate, And she brought forth a man child, who is to shepherd all the nations with (it is, literally, in) a rod of iron. There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ. The combination of features is too distinct to admit of doubt, it is the one who will feed His flock like a shepherd (Isaiah 40:12), who is to have, not His own people, but all nations as His inheritance (Psalm 2:7-9), and whose rule over them is to be supreme and irresistible.

Meyer's NT Commentary
The intention of this emphasis, which De Wette improperly denies, is not that of designating the child as victor over the dragon,[3064] but[3065] points to what is added concerning the child immediately afterwards; Ὃς ΜΈΛΛΕΙ ΠΟΙΜ., Κ.Τ.Λ. These words taken from Psalm 2:9 (LXX.), which are referred also to Christ in Revelation 19:15, make it indubitable that the child born of the woman is the Messiah;

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

Protestant theologian John MacArthur states that the child is Jesus and His being "caught up to God" is His ASCENSION.

Let’s see – SOME of your sources say the child is the Church.
Others say it is Jesus AND the Church.
The Protestants I presented say it is Jesus. What a ball of confusion.

And so goes the whimsical MESS that is Protestantism . . .

Right, but Stellarium didn't exist until 2001, the technology needed to track Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17.

So did the commentaries from thousands of years ago understand the child is the church through their faith or something else? Did they come to knowledge that the dragon in Rev 12-17 was future and not past?

 

[Heb 13:8]

Thanks for your useless dictionary definitions - but they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the prophecies of Christ that I presented.

Try again . . .

lol that's not from a dictionary bro, it's the Greek translations.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, but Stellarium didn't exist until 2001, the technology needed to track Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17.
So did the commentaries from thousands of years ago understand the child is the church through their faith or something else? Did they come to knowledge that the dragon in Rev 12-17 was future and not past?

And THIS is the kind of garbage that REAL Christians are left to argue against.
Unbelieveable . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

lol that's not from a dictionary bro, it's the Greek translations.....

And it's completely irrelevant - whether it's from a dictionary or a Greek Lexicon - or a comic book.
The verses I presented were prophecies . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

And THIS is the kind of garbage that REAL Christians are left to argue against.
Unbelieveable . . .

Astronomy software is garbage? https://stellarium.org

 

[Heb 13:8]

And it's completely irrelevant - whether it's from a dictionary or a Greek Lexicon - or a comic book.
The verses I presented were prophecies . . .

Right, prophecies that show the church with authority over the nations, Rev 2:26. Wake up!

 

[Nancy]

****

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me this means that if I do not except that Jesus paid for my sins then there is not any other payment available.

If a person rejected Moses Law they were put to death. If a person rejects Jesus' payment they are insulting the Spirit of Grace.

But the religious always look at this scripture as saying that if a person sins they are condemned. They refuse to see that the sins of the child of God have all been paid for on the cross. So that is why I believe the only condemnation today is to not believe in Jesus' work on the cross.

Good Post H.Richard. I have heard it asked "How many sins did you commit when Jesus died on that cross once for all?" Of course, our answer would be NONE. This "incremental" forgiveness totally negates the once for all and "It is finished" truths. Sad really. The most obedient Christian will still have that parasite called sin living inside of them, as we grow, we (IMHO) sin less and less as it does not "fit" anymore, but we will NEVER be perfect human beings on this earth...there is only One who can claim that...

 

[Triumph1300]

Can you give a few examples of each that severs a relationship with God?

If BOL does that you will respond by saying:

"They were not saved in the first place"

I'v heard it many times.

 

[APAK]

If BOL does that you will respond by saying:

"They were not saved in the first place"

I'v heard it many times.

Triumph1300:

BOL already responded a few days back in #522. Honest answer and I take it that way. There was no need to use that catch-all phrase that you suggested I usually use. Although there are times it is accurate.

Great Day!

APAK

 

[Triumph1300]

BOL already responded a few days back in #522. Honest answer and I take it that way. There was no need to use that catch-all phrase that you suggested I usually use. Although there are times it is accurate.

Well, I guess I missed a few posts.

 

[Taken]

Hmmmmm, another impotent non-response.
BIG surprise . . .

Well - the challenge remains OPEN.
Explain how the following Parables are NOT about a loss of salvation for the disobedient . . .
Parable of the Talents
Parable/Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats
Parable of the Wise and foolish Builders:

No challenge.
Sheep are the Converted Believers.
Goats are the non-believers and non-Converted.

No fencepost.
Either one is a Converted Believer or he isn't.

Converted Believers are:
Saved AND born Again,
Never in danger of losing their Salvation,
ARE Christs Church,
ARE those call up to Jesus in the Clouds, pre-Trib.

The goats (non- Believers in Jesus is the Christ, non- Converted & and non believers in
God...shall have 3 1/2 years to Hear, Learn , Believe, Trust & commit....

If a man does so, his body will be physically killed and his living soul Saved and raised up to heaven.

(This is a Mid-Trib rising up of Saved souls, that some confuse with a "Rapture".)

It is NOT a Rapture.....Because a "Rapture" is
The Rising Up of A Body, or A Body & Soul...and Applies TO Christs Church, ie. Those In Christ.

A man who continues to reject God/Christ and commits to the Devil / Satan, shall be bodily killed and his living unSaved soul sent to hell to await Judgement.

Parables are Jesus Doctrine.
They reveal Knowledge that Was secret and mysterious.
They reveal Truths of WHO ARE the Sheep and the Goats and what Shall become of the Sheep and Goats.

Individual men choose where they want to Stand....
With God and His Christ and Sheep...
Or
Against God and His Christ and Sheep ....and thus suffer the consequences of being A Goat.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Astronomy software is garbage? https://stellarium.org

It's garbage when you think you need it to read about Biblical events that took place i Heaven.
Astronomy software won't help you with Rev. 12, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, prophecies that show the church with authority over the nations, Rev 2:26. Wake up!

Prophecies about Christ that YOU erroneously attribute to yourself and your fellow Protestants.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No challenge.
Sheep are the Converted Believers.
Goats are the non-believers and non-Converted.

No fencepost.
Either one is a Converted Believer or he isn't.

Converted Believers are:
Saved AND born Again,
Never in danger of losing their Salvation,
ARE Christs Church,
ARE those call up to Jesus in the Clouds, pre-Trib.

The goats (non- Believers in Jesus is the Christ, non- Converted & and non believers in
God...shall have 3 1/2 years to Hear, Learn , Believe, Trust & commit....

If a man does so, his body will be physically killed and his living soul Saved and raised up to heaven.

(This is a Mid-Trib rising up of Saved souls, that some confuse with a "Rapture".)

It is NOT a Rapture.....Because a "Rapture" is
The Rising Up of A Body, or A Body & Soul...and Applies TO Christs Church, ie. Those In Christ.

A man who continues to reject God/Christ and commits to the Devil / Satan, shall be bodily killed and his living unSaved soul sent to hell to await Judgement.

Parables are Jesus Doctrine.
They reveal Knowledge that Was secret and mysterious.
They reveal Truths of WHO ARE the Sheep and the Goats and what Shall become of the Sheep and Goats.

Individual men choose where they want to Stand....
With God and His Christ and Sheep...
Or
Against God and His Christ and Sheep ....and thus suffer the consequences of being A Goat.

WRONG.
There are PLENTY of apostate converted believers among the Goats.

You can't apostatize if you're NOT a converted, born-again follower of Christ.
Apostasy requires TRUE FAITH to be lost, Einstein. It requires a rejection of a former Epignosis of Christ.