CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[BreadOfLife]

Of course, it's called being human. Falling and repenting is meant for human beings only. Prov 24:16.

No - stumbling is part of the journey of a FAITHFUL servant.
Disobedience is rejection of God.

The Parables I presented show that you MUST be an obedient follower in order to be a faithful one.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL:
What is being obedient and being disobedient to God in your view? Can you give a few examples of each that severs a relationship with God?
Thanks,
Blessings,
APAK

NOT all sin is of the same severity nor does it have the same effect.
There is sin that causes death - or "mortal" sin (1 John 5:16-17) - and there are lesser (venial) sins.

A venial sin might include stealing a pencil from work or using foul language. Some examples of mortal sin might include murder, rape, fornication, abortion, etc.
Whereas venial sin damages our relationship with God - Mortal sin severs it.

ANY sin, however, can be repented of and the person restored to Christ. This is the example we have in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.
The only exception is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (final impenitence).

 

[Heb 13:8]

No - stumbling is part of the journey of a FAITHFUL servant.
Disobedience is rejection of God.

The Parables I presented show that you MUST be an obedient follower in order to be a faithful one.

and the faithful ones depend on His finished work of the cross to keep them, not human works.

 

[BreadOfLife]

and the faithful ones depend on His finished work of the cross to keep them, not human works.

And that's why Catholics depend only on His finished work.
However, if we refuse to cooperate with that grace - we cannot benefit from it.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And that's why Catholics depend only on His finished work.
However, if we refuse to cooperate with that grace - we cannot benefit from it.

Right, you affect your sanctification, not salvation. Yet, the power of God in a believer always wins.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

And this is a PERFECT example of why the OSAS LIE is not only naive - but spiritually arrogant.

The faithful/obedient servant IS saved.
That servant, however, can choose to walk away from God at ANY time because of his FREE WILL and be LOST forever. This is why we are admonished in Scripture to REMAIN faithful to the end.

So - tell me, my Protestant friend - WHICH is it?? Are we saved BY hope or are we saved BY faith or are we saved BY the Blood of Christ or are we saved BY doing God's will??

The Father would not bother giving that sinner to believe in the Son for the Son to keep if he can truly walk away from Him keeping him. That would make us more powerful than Jesus Christ.

So no. The Son of God will do the will of the Father and therefore those who fall away, He will get that one lost sheep regardless of the 99 in the barn, even the ones that gets left behind at the pre great trib rapture event.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I see this as addressing the Catholic Church as to eat things sacrificed unto idols in the Mass and to commit fornication by seeking the presence of the Holy Spirit to come in the worship place as the Pentecostals and Charismatics do for why there is such a thing as a Catholic Charismatic Church that speaks in tongues without interpretation because it was gained by receiving what they assume was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation when He was in them when they had first believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead.

Even though you may not believe that end result that you are already saved by that way, but that is what the scripture says.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So I believe those saints left behind are still saved while their works will be burned up from that foundation laid by Jesus Christ ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) for why they will be received in His House after the great tribulation BUT as vessels unto dishonor ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 )

So unless you repent and leave the Catholic Church, I do believe you are saved but you run the risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[APAK]

NOT all sin is of the same severity nor does it have the same effect.
There is sin that causes death - or "mortal" sin (1 John 5:16-17) - and there are lesser (venial) sins.

A venial sin might include stealing a pencil from work or using foul language. Some examples of mortal sin might include murder, rape, fornication, abortion, etc.
Whereas venial sin damages our relationship with God - Mortal sin severs it.

ANY sin, however, can be repented of and the person restored to Christ. This is the example we have in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.
The only exception is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (final impenitence).

BOL: I appreciate your response.

Ok then obedience or non-obedience to God is dependent on the severity of sin. So if we repent because of conscious sin then we are restored to God? (rhetorical) and salvation is restored. I used to think that way when I was a Catholic through school as I was taught. Since my twenties and on I believe that the spirit of God convicts and or corrected these venial and mortal sins without the intervention of a third party or church.

I allowed myself to completely trust and have faith in God directly, with his spirit speaking to me. A more personal and spontaneous approach.

Thanks again,

Blessings,

APAK

 

[ScottA]

@Doug

If you believe that a born again person cannot fall away and be lost - then please explain the following excerpt to me from the Book of Hebrews - because NOBODY here has been able to do so . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

This same "Epignosis" is written about in the following passage:
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 refer to the fact that ones' true will becomes them, in which case the condemnation stands. It is not the course of time that defines ones' will, but ones' will that defines the course of time.

 

[H. Richard]

@Doug
Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 refer to the fact that ones' true will becomes them, in which case the condemnation stands. It is not the course of time that defines ones' will, but ones' will that defines the course of time.

****

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me this means that if I do not except that Jesus paid for my sins then there is not any other payment available.

If a person rejected Moses Law they were put to death. If a person rejects Jesus' payment they are insulting the Spirit of Grace.

But the religious always look at this scripture as saying that if a person sins they are condemned. They refuse to see that the sins of the child of God have all been paid for on the cross. So that is why I believe the only condemnation today is to not believe in Jesus' work on the cross.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Right, you affect your sanctification, not salvation. Yet, the power of God in a believer always wins.

WRONG.

Being disobedient affects your salvation - just as the Parables I presented show us.
You have YET to refute the interpretations of those 3 Parables.

Can you at LEAST give it a try??

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Father would not bother giving that sinner to believe in the Son for the Son to keep if he can truly walk away from Him keeping him. That would make us more powerful than Jesus Christ.

So no. The Son of God will do the will of the Father and therefore those who fall away, He will get that one lost sheep regardless of the 99 in the barn, even the ones that gets left behind at the pre great trib rapture event.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

I see this as addressing the Catholic Church as to eat things sacrificed unto idols in the Mass and to commit fornication by seeking the presence of the Holy Spirit to come in the worship place as the Pentecostals and Charismatics do for why there is such a thing as a Catholic Charismatic Church that speaks in tongues without interpretation because it was gained by receiving what they assume was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation when He was in them when they had first believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead.

Even though you may not believe that end result that you are already saved by that way, but that is what the scripture says.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So I believe those saints left behind are still saved while their works will be burned up from that foundation laid by Jesus Christ ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) for why they will be received in His House after the great tribulation BUT as vessels unto dishonor ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 )

So unless you repent and leave the Catholic Church, I do believe you are saved but you run the risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes.

This is complete and utter nonsense.

Free will doesn't make us "more powerful" than Christ. It simply illustrates what TRUE love is.
God does NOT drag anybody kicking and screaming against their will into Heaven - NOR does He throw anybody kicking and screaming against their will into Hell. WE choose where we will spend eternity.

If God coerced us - then He wold be a rapist - NOT our Father who LOVES us.
His full and complete love allows US the choice to remain with Him to to reject Him.

It's a shame that YOU haven't experienced that kind of all-encompassing love of the Father . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL: I appreciate your response.

Ok then obedience or non-obedience to God is dependent on the severity of sin. So if we repent because of conscious sin then we are restored to God? (rhetorical) and salvation is restored. I used to think that way when I was a Catholic through school as I was taught. Since my twenties and on I believe that the spirit of God convicts and or corrected these venial and mortal sins without the intervention of a third party or church.

I allowed myself to completely trust and have faith in God directly, with his spirit speaking to me. A more personal and spontaneous approach.

Thanks again,
Blessings,

APAK

That's great that you feel you can go directly to God with your sins. The Church has ALWAYS taught this.
HOWEVER - Jesus Himself gave the power to FORGIVE or RETAIN sins to the leaders of His Church.

In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

St. Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation clearly in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

To sum up - since Venial (lesser) sins harm our relationship with God - we go directly to God for confession, repentance and forgiveness.
Since Mortal (deadly) sins sever our relationship with Him, we confess to HIM - through His appointed agents - His ministerial Priests.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@Doug
Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 refer to the fact that ones' true will becomes them, in which case the condemnation stands. It is not the course of time that defines ones' will, but ones' will that defines the course of time.

This STILL doesn't answer the problem you have with the "Epignosis" spoken of in these passages.

As I have explained about a hundred times now - and have presented MOUNTAINS of Protestant scholarship - Epignosis is speaking about a converted, born-again servant of Christ.

BOTH Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 speak of people with an Epignosis of Christ and the dangers of them falling away and LOSING their security.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

This is complete and utter nonsense.

Free will doesn't make us "more powerful" than Christ. It simply illustrates what TRUE love is.
God does NOT drag anybody kicking and screaming against their will into Heaven - NOR does He throw anybody kicking and screaming against their will into Hell. WE choose where we will spend eternity.

If God coerced us - then He wold be a rapist - NOT our Father who LOVES us.
His full and complete love allows US the choice to remain with Him to to reject Him.

It's a shame that YOU haven't experienced that kind of all-encompassing love of the Father . . .

I have confidence in the Son that someday, you will know the all encompassing love of the Father, even if you do get left behind at the pre great trib rapture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have confidence in the Son that someday, you will know the all encompassing love of the Father, even if you do get left behind at the pre great trib rapture.

Ahhhh, yes - the Pre-Trib "Rapture".
Yet another man-made invention . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

WRONG.

Being disobedient affects your salvation - just as the Parables I presented show us.
You have YET to refute the interpretations of those 3 Parables.

Can you at LEAST give it a try??

Try to use parables to disprove facts? I see that you still don't get it. Does Sesame Street really exist because it's on tv, or is it simply teaching us things through fictional characters?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Ahhhh, yes - the Pre-Trib "Rapture".
Yet another man-made invention . . .

Well, many that believe in the Pre Trib Rapture, believes that all saved believers will be raptured, but scripture testify that God will be judging His House first which will happen at that pre great trib rapture. That means God will be excommunicating unrepentant saints from the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Just remember when you get left behind that the Father does love you, brother. Jesus will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him as He will finish His work even in those left behind as His way of getting that lost sheep Home and that includes the ones the churches excommunicates also.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Try to use parables to disprove facts? I see that you still don't get it. Does Sesame Street really exist because it's on tv, or is it simply teaching us things through fictional characters?

I see that you are still unable to show that these parables do NOT disprove your false OSAS doctrine.
No need to try. Your impotent response speak VOLUMES . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, many that believe in the Pre Trib Rapture, believes that all saved believers will be raptured, but scripture testify that God will be judging His House first which will happen at that pre great trib rapture. That means God will be excommunicating unrepentant saints from the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Just remember when you get left behind that the Father does love you, brother. Jesus will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him as He will finish His work even in those left behind as His way of getting that lost sheep Home and that includes the ones the churches excommunicates also.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

And the problem with this false, man-made invention is that it is NOWHERE supported by Scripture.

In other words, my delusional friend - the Bible NEVER speaks of a "Pre-Tribulation" rapture. This was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby in the 1830's.

NONE of your Protestant Fathers taught OR believed in this fairy tale.
Were THEY wrong??

 

[Heb 13:8]

I see that you are still unable to show that these parables do NOT disprove your false OSAS doctrine.
No need to try. Your impotent response speak VOLUMES . . .

Parables all day BOL, go crazy.