CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[Heb 13:8]

And the problem with this false, man-made invention is that it is NOWHERE supported by Scripture.

In other words, my delusional friend - the Bible NEVER speaks of a "Pre-Tribulation" rapture. This was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby in the 1830's.

NONE of your Protestant Fathers taught OR believed in this fairy tale.
Were THEY wrong??

No, the pre-trib rapture was penned by Paul and John. The fake religious are in for big surprise.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Parables all day BOL, go crazy.

Hmmmmm, another impotent non-response.
BIG surprise . . .

Well - the challenge remains OPEN.
Explain how the following Parables are NOT about a loss of salvation for the disobedient . . .
Parable of the Talents
Parable/Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats
Parable of the Wise and foolish Builders:

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, the pre-trib rapture was penned by Paul and John. The fake religious are in for big surprise.

Really??
SHOW me.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

And the problem with this false, man-made invention is that it is NOWHERE supported by Scripture.

In other words, my delusional friend - the Bible NEVER speaks of a "Pre-Tribulation" rapture. This was invented by a man named John Nelson Darby in the 1830's.

NONE of your Protestant Fathers taught OR believed in this fairy tale.
Were THEY wrong??

Well, if you continue to insist that you researched the scripture by why Jesus was warning His disciples about in being ready for when the Bridegroom comes, but I don't believe you did that. I just think you listened to a bunch of naysayers giving the credit of said topic to some guy in debunking.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Hmmmmm, another impotent non-response.
BIG surprise . . .

Well - the challenge remains OPEN.
Explain how the following Parables are NOT about a loss of salvation for the disobedient . . .
Parable of the Talents
Parable/Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats
Parable of the Wise and foolish Builders:

It's not worth responding to. Until you learn what parables are used for then...

parabole: a parable, comparison
Original Word: παραβολή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parabole
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ab-ol-ay')
Short Definition: a parable, comparison
Definition: (a) a comparison, (b) a parable, often of those uttered by our Lord, (c) a proverb, an adage.
HELPS Word-studies

3850 parabolḗ (from 3844 /pará, "close beside, with" and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – a parable; a teaching aid cast alongside the truth being taught. This casts additional light by using an arresting or familiar analogy, (which is often fictitious or metaphorical, but not necessarily).

Really??
SHOW me.

The word harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. You've been shown multiple times, i've exhausted my help

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, if you continue to insist that you researched the scripture by why Jesus was warning His disciples about in being ready for when the Bridegroom comes, but I don't believe you did that. I just think you listened to a bunch of naysayers giving the credit of said topic to some guy in debunking.

No - I listened to 2000 years of Church teaching - NOT the rantings of a 19th century Englishman.

Also - there simply isn't ANY evidence for this claim in Scripture. I keep asking for it an NOBODY seems to be able to provide it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's not worth responding to. Until you learn what parables are used for then...

No that's just a cop-out because I have you backed into a corner and you can't get out of it.
Let me know when you're ready to have a grown-up discussion about Parables.

The word harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. You've been shown multiple times, i've exhausted my help

I'm not doubting that the word "Harpazo" is used. I said that the fallacy of a "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture is nothing but a man-made fantasy.

If you're going to make a claim about Scripture - the onus is on YOU to prove it . . .

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

No - I listened to 2000 years of Church teaching - NOT the rantings of a 19th century Englishman.

Also - there simply isn't ANY evidence for this claim in Scripture. I keep asking for it an NOBODY seems to be able to provide it . . .

I said listen to Jesus and His words... not the man that everybody thinks that idea came from him. Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 14:15-33 & Luke 21:33-36

Study those passages, pray about it, and get back to me and explain what Jesus is warning His believers about. Don't refer to that guy at all.

 

[Heb 13:8]

No that's just a cop-out because I have you backed into a corner and you can't get out of it.
Let me know when you're ready to have a grown-up discussion about Parables.

Backed into a corner? Nah.. Jhn 8:36,

I'm not doubting that the word "Harpazo" is used. I said that the fallacy of a "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture is nothing but a man-made fantasy. If you're going to make a claim about Scripture - the onus is on YOU to prove it . . .

well notice the child is caught up to God before Satan falls to earth, Rev 12:5, 7-9

 

[BreadOfLife]

I said listen to Jesus and His words... not the man that everybody thinks that idea came from him. Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 14:15-33 & Luke 21:33-36

Study those passages, pray about it, and get back to me and explain what Jesus is warning His believers about. Don't refer to that guy at all.

Of COURSE you don't want me to refer to John Nelson Darby - the inventor of the "Pre-Trib" Rapture.
Why would you??

NONE of the verses you presented imply ANYTHING about the Church being yanked off of the face of the earth prior to the Tribulations. Jesus doesn't come back TWICE - only ONCE.

At NO time in history have God's people been spared calamity. The Early Christian martyrs - whose faith was probably stronger than MOST Christians today - suffered the most horrific tortures and deaths. In the OT - most of the Prophets were murdered.
Even Moses had to live through the terror of the world being destroyed.

The ONE thing about suffering that Jesus NEVER stated was that it was going to be EASY for His followers. In fact - He warned how DIFFICULT it would be for us - yet admonished us to pick up our cross and persevere.
Suffering for Christ is part of being His servant (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Backed into a corner? Nah.. Jhn 8:36,

In its proper context - John 8:36 is talking about sin and how the Son sets us free.
It has NOTHING to do with your little "Pre-Trib" fairly tale . . .

well notice the child is caught up to God before Satan falls to earth, Rev 12:5, 7-9

Soooo - you are equating the child of Rev. 12:5 with YOU??
The child is Christ.

Try again . . .

 

[ScottA]

****

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

To me this means that if I do not except that Jesus paid for my sins then there is not any other payment available.

If a person rejected Moses Law they were put to death. If a person rejects Jesus' payment they are insulting the Spirit of Grace.

But the religious always look at this scripture as saying that if a person sins they are condemned. They refuse to see that the sins of the child of God have all been paid for on the cross. So that is why I believe the only condemnation today is to not believe in Jesus' work on the cross.

The point is, God has only sacrificed His Son once. But Paul addresses the truth or falsity of the heart of one who would go back, which was his way of saying that such a person was never right with God in the first place. Salvation is the act of laying down one's own life, after which it is no longer them who lives, but Christ who lives in them - meaning that Christ whom is God cannot and will not go back against Himself. Thus, a person has either laid down their life...or not...i.e., once to die.

 

[Heb 13:8]

In its proper context - John 8:36 is talking about sin and how the Son sets us free.
It has NOTHING to do with your little "Pre-Trib" fairly tale . . .

Soooo - you are equating the child of Rev. 12:5 with YOU??
The child is Christ.

Try again . . .

And are you a son that has been adopted into the family, and notice the word forever in Jhn 8:35. No, the child is in reference to the body of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

This STILL doesn't answer the problem you have with the "Epignosis" spoken of in these passages.

As I have explained about a hundred times now - and have presented MOUNTAINS of Protestant scholarship - Epignosis is speaking about a converted, born-again servant of Christ.

BOTH Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 speak of people with an Epignosis of Christ and the dangers of them falling away and LOSING their security.

This is not a matter of epignosis - even the demons have epignosis.

No...this does not address what one has knowledge of, but whether or not one has actually laid down their life, as did Christ: once to die.

 

[Jay Ross]

This is not a matter of epignosis - even the demons have epignosis.

No...this does not address what one has knowledge of, but whether or not one has actually laid down their life, as did Christ: once to die.

I googled epignosis and found the following information: -

Epignosis is a progressive rock band made up of multi-instrumentalist Robert Brown and vocalist Tasha Brown.​

So do demons have their own rock band then? LOL

 

[APAK]

That's great that you feel you can go directly to God with your sins. The Church has ALWAYS taught this.
HOWEVER - Jesus Himself gave the power to FORGIVE or RETAIN sins to the leaders of His Church.

In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

St. Paul makes NO small case for this ministry of reconciliation clearly in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

To sum up - since Venial (lesser) sins harm our relationship with God - we go directly to God for confession, repentance and forgiveness.
Since Mortal (deadly) sins sever our relationship with Him, we confess to HIM - through His appointed agents - His ministerial Priests.

BOL: I detect a slight although profound difference in meaning that makes all the difference and accounts for why your religion believes they are the only ones that can lead other to salvation. Further, I, as a mature believer is considered 'unholy' and insignificant, and also being 'outside' your 'church to be in the service of God that can save a person's soul. Bluntly put, I'm not considered an equal with the disciples or early apostles to be an instrument of God to save another. Only the 'church' is equipped to perform these sacred and spiritual matters of God.

Anyway. here's where I differ in your meaning of Romans 20:21-13. And its scriptural and is in harmony, yours is not. Yours went too far in forcing only 'your church' designated people as representatives and even saints of God. No one else counts!

In John 20:21-23, Jesus did provide a special TEMPORARY authority to the 12 disciples ONLY, from the Father, to Jesus, to the twelve, to forgive and retain sin. It was necessary to fill the spiritual vacuum for about 50 days, because Jesus would ascend to heaven before the age of grace and the day of Pentecost. The twelve would fulfill Jesus’ purpose of preaching the gospel under the law, and sins still needed to be forgiven; or not. These 12 were now transitioning from being the students to graduates, as teachers of Christ.

We must remember that no one had received the transforming spirit of God in their hearts yet, including the disciples/ apostles. No one was ‘fully’ converted, including the 12 disciples until the day of Pentecost.

Note: this temporary spiritual gift of forgiveness of sin was temporary, given to only the 12 disciples before the day of Pentecost.

Before and since the age of grace, only Jesus through the power of the Father can forgive sin or retain sin. And if we believe in grace, in Jesus’ work and accept the gift of salvation that is acceptable to God, we know that Jesus died and atoned for our sins.

Today, mature believers are considered equals with the original disciples and early apostles that can lead others to God. Of course we have other religions saying otherwise.

(Joh 20:21) Jesus again said to them: Peace to you. As the Father has sent me, even so send I you.
(Joh 20:22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them: Receive the Holy Spirit.
(Joh 20:23) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. (NEV)

(Luk 24:49) And I will send to you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high. (NEV)

(Act 2:1) And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
(Act 2:2) And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(Act 2:3) And there appeared to them tongues like fire, separating and resting upon each one of them personally.
(Act 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them to speak. (NEV)

NO MAN CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS, whether so-called 'mortal; or not, BOL. Your 'church' built that feature in as a pillow of its core belief that is not in scripture. It became part of your tradition.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[BreadOfLife]

And are you a son that has been adopted into the family, and notice the word forever in Jhn 8:35. No, the child is in reference to the body of Christ.

Not only is there not a single Catholic scholar who holds this position - there is no credible PROTESTANT theologian or Scripture scholar who holds to this heretical position.
The "Child" of Rev. 12:3 is CHRIST.

Rev. 12:5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Are YOU destined to rule ALL nations with an "Iron Rod" - or is Christ??
ALL of the following verses are talking about GOD - and NOT the Church and certainly not YOU . . .

Revelation 2:27
And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

Psalm 2:9
You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

Revelation 12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is not a matter of epignosis - even the demons have epignosis.

No...this does not address what one has knowledge of, but whether or not one has actually laid down their life, as did Christ: once to die.

The demons absolutely had an Epignosis of God - and rebelled against Him.

BOTH Hebrews 10:26-27 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 speak of people with an Epignosis of Christ and the dangers of them falling away and LOSING their security. These passages are NOT about demons - but about PEOPLE.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not only is there not a single Catholic scholar who holds this position - there is no credible PROTESTANT theologian or Scripture scholar who holds to this heretical position.
The "Child" of Rev. 12:3 is CHRIST.

Rev. 12:5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Are YOU destined to rule ALL nations with an "Iron Rod" - or is Christ??
ALL of the following verses are talking about GOD - and NOT the Church and certainly not YOU . . .

Revelation 2:27
And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html

Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not only is there not a single Catholic scholar who holds this position - there is no credible PROTESTANT theologian or Scripture scholar who holds to this heretical position.
The "Child" of Rev. 12:3 is CHRIST.

Rev. 12:5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Are YOU destined to rule ALL nations with an "Iron Rod" - or is Christ??
ALL of the following verses are talking about GOD - and NOT the Church and certainly not YOU . . .

Revelation 2:27
And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

Psalm 2:9
You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

Revelation 12:5
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

poimainó: to act as a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poimainó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I shepherd, tend
Definition: I shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Revelation 2:27 V-FIA-3S
GRK: καὶ ποιμανεῖ αὐτοὺς ἐν
NAS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD
KJV: And he shall rule them with
INT: and he will shepherd them with

Revelation 12:5 V-PNA
GRK: ὃς μέλλει ποιμαίνειν πάντα τὰ
NAS: [child], who is to rule all
KJV: who was to rule all nations
INT: who is about to shepherd all the