Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

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BreadOfLife

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I would like to know how you have come to that conclusion, because everything in Matthew 12 (as pertaining to this incident) doesn't suggest that.

First off... No woman is involved in a conversation. One woman (Mary) was seeking an audience with his brothers (or brethren). Jesus didn't talk to her ever in this account. Reading carefully, one man came to Jesus and Jesus spoke those words directly to him.

Second, Mary and his brethren never got to talk to Jesus during this incident.
Third, verse 48 says says, " but he answered and said unto him..." the fact that Matthew says "but" implies heavily something contrary had happened. Mary wanted to talk to Jesus BUT Jesus said....

Fourth... Not that I put much stock in classic commentaries.... I aporeciate them but don't count them as accurate alk the time.... I haven't found one that supports your view. I have heard others that believe like you, but never can pinpoint a source for this belief.

Fifth... I don't hide from scripture. Mark 3 tells a much more supportive version for your theory. Yet, you quoted Matt. Mark, by the way seems much more abbreviated than Matt.

In any sense, it seems to me that what happened is that Mary and Jesus's brethren didn't get to church on time and had something they thought was more important than what Jesus had to say. Jesus wasn't having any of it. God's Word is more important than earthly family.

And just what was so important that it couldn't wait for Jesus to do his Father's will?
My mistake.
There were lots of verses being thrown around but my response was referring to the following verses:
Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
 

JesusIsFaithful

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And, in your total ignorance - you keep speaking of Jesus and of God - as if Jesus wasn't God.
Jesus IS God and Mary is His Mother.

As for your moronic assertion that she has "no power" in heaven - why would YOU want to go there?? What is your hope??
ALL
who go to heaven will have an extension of the power of God (1 John 3:2).

Don't just quote the Bible.
Try studying it to find out what it actually means . . .

Jesus is God. Mary is not.

When was the last time someone honored you by honoring your mother? If that is not being practiced down here, why in the world would you think that is what Jesus wants after deferring that woman from honoring His mother to hearing the word of God and do it down here?

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus is to honor His mother, but He never told anyone else to do that when their focus should be on Him as the Bridegroom in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

How would you like it if your bride relates to you through your mother & everybody else intimately rather than to you directly?

Jesus loves you to have died for you and you are exalting every other way around Him than coming to Him? There is no second best. Honor Him only.
 

BreadOfLife

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Yelling gets you know where. As for "set apart" how woul;d you know, you are stuch to your church and its doctrines", seperated from God by your doctrines and religion, what is it He says

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Ummm, first of all - who's "yelling"??
Certainly not me . . .

Secondly, God's Church IS holy (1 Pet. 2:9).
What isn't holy is your cult over at "aggressivechristianity.net" with its little "Generals" . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Jesus is God. Mary is not.

Of course she's not.
Why would you think she was??

When was the last time someone honored you by honoring your mother? If that is not being practiced down here, why in the world would you think that is what Jesus wants after deferring that woman from honoring His mother to hearing the word of God and do it down here?

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus is to honor His mother, but He never told anyone else to do that when their focus should be on Him as the Bridegroom in living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

How would you like it if your bride relates to you through your mother & everybody else intimately rather than to you directly?

Jesus loves you to have died for you and you are exalting every other way around Him than coming to Him? There is no second best. Honor Him only.

As for my mother - I am absolutely honored when she is honored.
As for my wife - if she asked my mother topray for me, I would feel loved by BOTH of them.

YOUR problem is that you don't understand what the Body of Christ is. We all need each other . . .

1 Cor. 12:12-26
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by ONE Spirit so as to form ONE body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is HONORED, every part rejoices with it.


LEARN your Bible - don't just quote it . . .
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Of course she's not.
Why would you think she was??


Because Catholicism is treating her as if she is a god in being able to do what God can do; hear prayers and answer them.


As for my mother - I am absolutely honored when she is honored.
As for my wife - if she asked my mother to pray for me, I would feel loved by BOTH of them.

That is not the point, and hardly the same in what you are doing towards Mary. Your wife is not asking Mary to pray for you; she is "praying" to Mary in asking Mary to pray for you. Prayers are given to deity. And that is why non-Catholics and sinners in the world sees Mary as a god that is worshipped. You cannot deny that there are Catholics out there that claim Mary answers prayers.

Let's see your mother do that.

YOUR problem is that you don't understand what the Body of Christ is. We all need each other . . .

There is nothing in the verses below that talks about our fellow departed believers being able to hear & answer prayers for us and yet you would use that to justify Mary fulfilling that office that only Jesus Christ has been designated to do in according to the Father's will. Jesus is God and He does not need any help from His mother to do that because she cannot do it. Period.

1 Cor. 12:12-26
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by ONE Spirit so as to form ONE body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is HONORED, every part rejoices with it.


LEARN your Bible - don't just quote it . . .

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.........13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Nowhere did Jesus ever promised that in any future that Mary would do the same thing. The Father is glorified only in the Son for answering prayers because ONLY the Son hears and answers prayers whenever the Father says "Yes" to any intercession presented to Him by only the Son Whom alone is at that throne of grace.

So there is no addressing Mary in prayer nor honoring her in wrship when she is not God to hear those rosary prayers, let alone answer them The Father is not glorified in Mary for answered prayers. The Father is only glorified in His Son for answered prayers and the Father is only honored in christian worship when believers ONLY honor the Son.

You better believe that is what Mary is doing in Heaven; honoring and praising the Son; her Saviour. She got no time for anything else that only God can do.
 

Abiding Grace

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No, scriptures do no teach it. Calvin squeezed it from scriptures.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I don't share it, but that is the nature of apologetics.

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

I hear this a lot, but I consider it more Catholic tradition trying to change sola scriptura.


1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Let's clear this up first. Paul did not write 1 or 2 Peter. Peter did. His audience were the elect as Peter said.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 1:1-2English Standard Version (ESV)

Greeting
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Grace is a gift, which Paul did teach in Ephesians 2:8-9.

The Bible doesn't teach two kinds of predestination.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

You are of course free to have your own opinion, but your interpretation here is not supported by any facts.

Context matters:

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Huh? This verse is comparing the depraved temporal body of dust, with the spiritual body. But the words "predestined to glory" are not found. Perhaps you are mixing ideas.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. (how did they get their names in the book in the first place?) This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

I have already dealt with this verse. But I will, as a courtesy to another believer, I will do so again.

First the context, John is writing about the church remnant - the Sardi's. They had remained faithful to the Lord. Those dressed in White were the victors. The Book of Life, contains the name of every person who is eternally elect. Jesus Christ will never erase these names.

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

No, grace is a gift. The Bible is crystal clear on this. I have already provided scripture which demonstrates this.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn't want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won't know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don't even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

This is simply your opinion.

The scriptures teach that God is the author and finisher of our faith.

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).

One last thing, your idea regarding predestination and foreknowledge is wrong. Maybe study up on it.

God speed.
 

Abiding Grace

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And, in your total ignorance - you keep speaking of Jesus and of God - as if Jesus wasn't God.

"Dishonest"
"Moronic"

If I may make a comment. I've never found that name-calling is a correct debate method. It does not honor the scriptures. In fact, it violates them.

1 Corinthians 3:3King James Version (KJV)

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Galatians 5:16-21King James Version (KJV)

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 4:29King James Version (KJV)

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

James 1:26New International Version (NIV)

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? I'm always open to correction if I am wrong.
 

epostle1

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You are of course entitled to your opinion. I don't share it, but that is the nature of apologetics.
I hear this a lot, but I consider it more Catholic tradition trying to change sola scriptura.
Let's clear this up first. Paul did not write 1 or 2 Peter. Peter did. His audience were the elect as Peter said.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 1:1-2English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Grace is a gift, which Paul did teach in Ephesians 2:8-9.
The Bible doesn't teach two kinds of predestination.
You are of course free to have your own opinion, but your interpretation here is not supported by any facts.
Context matters:
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Huh? This verse is comparing the depraved temporal body of dust, with the spiritual body. But the words "predestined to glory" are not found. Perhaps you are mixing ideas.
I have already dealt with this verse. But I will, as a courtesy to another believer, I will do so again.
First the context, John is writing about the church remnant - the Sardi's. They had remained faithful to the Lord. Those dressed in White were the victors. The Book of Life, contains the name of every person who is eternally elect. Jesus Christ will never erase these names.
No, grace is a gift. The Bible is crystal clear on this. I have already provided scripture which demonstrates this.
This is simply your opinion.
The scriptures teach that God is the author and finisher of our faith.
And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).
One last thing, your idea regarding predestination and foreknowledge is wrong. Maybe study up on it.

God speed.
If a person is saved, they no longer have the free will to reject God's grace, which is your opinion.
 

mjrhealth

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Secondly, God's Church IS holy (1 Pet. 2:9).
His maybe yours not...

What isn't holy is your cult over at "aggressivechristianity.net" with its little "Generals" . . .
YEs BOL thsi is what happens when one doesnt have anything useful to say, what was it the Pharisses wanted to do with Jesus

Joh_7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

and why was that,

Mat_15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

Whn you find the truth you will stop being angry and you wont have to spend anymore time on your favourite website. Seem their anger management course is not helping you.
 

mjrhealth

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Preaching Christ crucified as Paul says is not keeping Him on the cross.
But you are keeping Him on teh Cross, its there for all teh world to see. Why are you afraid to take Him Off.

Do you not know what makes Christianity, that real Christianity differnt to pagansm and all those othere religions???

We serve a living God. But what makes your church differnt??? Nothing, your church is filled with Idols, you pray to every one as if Jesus cant hear, you keep all te hpagan traditions ringing bells etc this bit

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Exactly what you do.

Your church

actual-hierarchy.png

His church

His Church.PNG

Where is Christ in your Hierarchy doesnt even exist. Replaced by teh pope. There is one Head of te hChurch, Christ Jesus and one mediatir, teh same.

Why do you insist on running away from Him
 

mjrhealth

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For the 100th time, Mark 7:13 says "YOUR traditions", the ones they made up, not the traditions Jesus kept all His life and not the traditions Paul tells us to keep.
Jesus was a Jew, He had to fulfil teh law as a Jew, yet He kept upsetting teh Jews, because He did things differently. JEsus came to change things, but the religious dont want to change, cost them there power and position, Still the same today it will never change.
 

epostle1

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Because Catholicism is treating her as if she is a god in being able to do what God can do; hear prayers and answer them.

That is not the point, and hardly the same in what you are doing towards Mary. Your wife is not asking Mary to pray for you; she is "praying" to Mary in asking Mary to pray for you. Prayers are given to deity. And that is why non-Catholics and sinners in the world sees Mary as a god that is worshipped. You cannot deny that there are Catholics out there that claim Mary answers prayers.
Let's see your mother do that.
There is nothing in the verses below that talks about our fellow departed believers being able to hear & answer prayers for us and yet you would use that to justify Mary fulfilling that office that only Jesus Christ has been designated to do in according to the Father's will. Jesus is God and He does not need any help from His mother to do that because she cannot do it. Period.

1 Cor. 12:12-26
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by ONE Spirit so as to form ONE body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is HONORED, every part rejoices with it.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.........13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Nowhere did Jesus ever promised that in any future that Mary would do the same thing. The Father is glorified only in the Son for answering prayers because ONLY the Son hears and answers prayers whenever the Father says "Yes" to any intercession presented to Him by only the Son Whom alone is at that throne of grace.
So there is no addressing Mary in prayer nor honoring her in wrship when she is not God to hear those rosary prayers, let alone answer them The Father is not glorified in Mary for answered prayers. The Father is only glorified in His Son for answered prayers and the Father is only honored in christian worship when believers ONLY honor the Son.
You better believe that is what Mary is doing in Heaven; honoring and praising the Son; her Saviour. She got no time for anything else that only God can do.
Mary hears our prayers, she has no power to answer them, only God can answer them. Since she is in heaven with God she is in a good position to deliver our prayers to God on our behalf, so you are completely misguided on that point. James 5:15 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. The Bible clearly shows gradients of righteousness. In your system, everybody is equally righteous. That's not the Kingdom of God, it's the kingdom of Marx and Lenin.

As for the BIBLICAL Doctrine of the Communion of Saints, it's another topic that you haven't a clue what the Bible says about it. "Mary worship" is an insult by ignorant anti-Catholic bigots who twist and distort anything Catholic because it is their religion to do so. Check a dictionary. Honor does not mean "worship".

922786_10200624764135519_1810919059_n.jpg
 
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epostle1

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But you are keeping Him on teh Cross, its there for all teh world to see. Why are you afraid to take Him Off.

Do you not know what makes Christianity, that real Christianity differnt to pagansm and all those othere religions???

We serve a living God. But what makes your church differnt??? Nothing, your church is filled with Idols, you pray to every one as if Jesus cant hear, you keep all te hpagan traditions ringing bells etc this bit

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Exactly what you do.

Your church

View attachment 862

His church

View attachment 863

Where is Christ in your Hierarchy doesnt even exist. Replaced by teh pope. There is one Head of te hChurch, Christ Jesus and one mediatir, teh same.

Why do you insist on running away from Him
That's not a very good depiction of the Church. This is more telling:

mother-teresa-at-her-home-for-the-destitute-and-dying-in-calcutta-AH61FE.jpg


Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

This is the Church in action that you despise.​
 

mjrhealth

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This is the Church in action that you despise.
no its the hypocrisy the anti christ doctrines, teh degradation of Jesus, teh seperation of man from God by your doctrines and religion, teh fact that you put Mary , elevated her above Jesus, repaced Jesus with teh pope, made the bible equal to God, replaced His doctrines with yours, stoles His authority, usurped His position, made a mockery of His name made Jesus no better than any man or women, taken away all that He had that made Him special and gave it to others, basically demoted God to no better than an idol in a pagan religion.

How can any one be a part of that.

PS. Works save no one, its faith alone.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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Mary hears our prayers, she has no power to answer them, only God can answer them. Since she is in heaven with God she is in a good position to deliver our prayers to God on our behalf, so you are completely misguided on that point.

You have ignored the evidence of the obvious and this is from a Catholic source that had placed this video. Anyone can read that she answers prayers. You give an inch to Mary by even having her hear prayers, then it will become a mile that she answers them too. And it has become that.

Anyone can verify that Catholics promotes prayers to Mary and to patron saints with a guarantee that they will receive an answer directly from them.


Now if you want to continue denying that you are the one that is wrong, so be it, but I have already shown this video to you as well as the cathecism that testify to Mary being a Mediatrix, denying God's words that there is ONLY ONE Mediator. So knock it off.

James 5:15 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. The Bible clearly shows gradients of righteousness. In your system, everybody is equally righteous. That's not the Kingdom of God, it's the kingdom of Marx and Lenin.


Matthew 11:11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Jesus does give gradience of righteousness in relations to the living down here in regards to those In the kingdom of heaven, BUT nowhere has Jesus ever compared Mary to others in the kingdom of heaven, because she is a sinner that needs God has her Saviour as much as any one else did.


Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:.......

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Mary was under the law as Joseph was when they had to go to the Temple for her having given birth to Jesus.

Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

So all that rant about her being conceive without sin is falsehood. A lie. A con job to lure believers away from Jesus to go to Mary instead, thus making her an antichrist by doing so because that is how antichrist is used in the scripture meaning "instead of Christ" as in "instead of the Son"..
As for the BIBLICAL Doctrine of the Communion of Saints, it's another topic that you haven't a clue what the Bible says about it. "Mary worship" is an insult by ignorant anti-Catholic bigots who twist and distort anything Catholic because it is their religion to do so. Check a dictionary. Honor does not mean "worship".

When you testify that it is a part of christian worship, then it is not merely just honor, so you may have bought the double talk, but I shall not.

Actions speaks louder than words. And prayers are offered to deities. Any body in the world can acknowledge that, and the appearance of praying to Mary, and EXPECTING her to answer prayers as that video PROVES it, is you ignoring even the practice of worshiping Mary in your own house.

If the Pope having that much of a problem convincing the world of this as you depict him, then stop honoring Mary. She will not mind it and she would have had preferred that you stop honoring her if she was down here. Since it would have been so down here, the same is true up there.

Honor Jesus by honoring Jesus. To honor Him by any other way is an act of iniquity in christian worship. Pray to Jesus. Not to Mary. Or else the Father will chasten those that do not only honor the Son the way He wants you all to only honor in christian worship. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Play it safe, brother. There is no warning of punishment for not honoring Mary, and God told you the only way to honor Him by in worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
 

BreadOfLife

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Because Catholicism is treating her as if she is a god in being able to do what God can do; hear prayers and answer them.

And that is nothing but an anti-Catholic lie.
Shame on you for spreading that kind of filth.
That is not the point, and hardly the same in what you are doing towards Mary. Your wife is not asking Mary to pray for you; she is "praying" to Mary in asking Mary to pray for you. Prayers are given to deity. And that is why non-Catholics and sinners in the world sees Mary as a god that is worshipped. You cannot deny that there are Catholics out there that claim Mary answers prayers.

Let's see your mother do that.
Do you ever think before you post - or are you just satisfied to wallow in ignorance??
Prayer is only for "Deity"?? Allow me to educate you . . .

Definition of the word “PRAY”:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
transitive verb
1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving


Notice that the primary definition of "Pray" simply means to ASK - and that's what we do when we pray to Mary and the saints in Heaven.
We ASK them to pray for us. For your information - everybody on this forum is praying to each other by asking one another to explain their position.

Does Mary answer prayers (requests).
Do YOU?? Does your mother?? Does your waiter at your favorite restaurant??
ABSOLUTELY.

Don't be satisfied to live in ignorance.
Educate yourself about what you are debating before embarrassing yourself any further . . .
There is nothing in the verses below that talks about our fellow departed believers being able to hear & answer prayers for us and yet you would use that to justify Mary fulfilling that office that only Jesus Christ has been designated to do in according to the Father's will. Jesus is God and He does not need any help from His mother to do that because she cannot do it. Period.

So, YOU don't pray for anybody because Jesus doesn't need help??
We are COMMANDED to pray for each other i Scripture (James 5:16).

Your idea that those in Heaven have been kicked out of the Body of Christ is the height of Protestant arrogance.
Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God - and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.

Because Catholicism is treating her as if she is a god in being able to do what God can do; hear prayers and answer them.

And that is nothing but an anti-Catholic lie.
Shame on you for spreading that kind of filth.
That is not the point, and hardly the same in what you are doing towards Mary. Your wife is not asking Mary to pray for you; she is "praying" to Mary in asking Mary to pray for you. Prayers are given to deity. And that is why non-Catholics and sinners in the world sees Mary as a god that is worshipped. You cannot deny that there are Catholics out there that claim Mary answers prayers.

Let's see your mother do that.
Do you ever think before you post - or are you just satisfied to wallow in ignorance??
Prayer is only for "Deity"?? Allow me to educate you . . .

Definition of the word “PRAY”:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
transitive verb

1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving


Notice that the primary definition of "Pray" simply means to ASK - and that's what we do when we pray to Mary and the saints in Heaven.
We ASK them to pray for us. For your information - everybody on this forum is praying to each other by asking one another to explain their position.

Does Mary answer prayers (requests).
Do YOU?? Does your mother?? Does your waiter at your favorite restaurant??
ABSOLUTELY.

Don't be satisfied to live in ignorance.
Educate yourself about what you are debating before embarrassing yourself any further . . .
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.........13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Nowhere did Jesus ever promised that in any future that Mary would do the same thing. The Father is glorified only in the Son for answering prayers because ONLY the Son hears and answers prayers whenever the Father says "Yes" to any intercession presented to Him by only the Son Whom alone is at that throne of grace.

So there is no addressing Mary in prayer nor honoring her in wrship when she is not God to hear those rosary prayers, let alone answer them The Father is not glorified in Mary for answered prayers. The Father is only glorified in His Son for answered prayers and the Father is only honored in christian worship when believers ONLY honor the Son.

You better believe that is what Mary is doing in Heaven; honoring and praising the Son; her Saviour. She got no time for anything else that only God can do.
Again - educate yourself about the things you are debating.
Crack open a dictionary and get into a good, solid Bible study.

This is embarrassing . . .
 

JesusIsFaithful

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And that is nothing but an anti-Catholic lie.
Shame on you for spreading that kind of filth.

Praying is asking a deity to respond.

Do you ever think before you post - or are you just satisfied to wallow in ignorance??
Prayer is only for "Deity"?? Allow me to educate you . . .

I'll leave your deucation out of the quote box so every one can plainly read how you are misapplying what you are trying to educate us in.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
transitive verb
1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that the primary definition of "Pray" simply means to ASK - and that's what we do when we pray to Mary and the saints in Heaven.
We ASK them to pray for us. For your information - everybody on this forum is praying to each other by asking one another to explain their position.[/QUOTE]

When you ask someone down here to "pray" for you to God, that is not you praying to them. That is you asking them. You are ignoring the second definition in each definition of the intransitive verb when it comes to how praying applies to deity. I have underlined it for you.

People use the term pray towards people when they beg, but that is not spiritually "praying" to a deity for a response. That first definition in each of your two examples for the intransitive verb is not the same as the second definition and surely not applied in the same manner.

Does Mary answer prayers (requests).
Do YOU?? Does your mother?? Does your waiter at your favorite restaurant??
ABSOLUTELY.

You keep referring to people down here and yet Mary is no longer down here. Prayers offered in the spiritual realm has always been given to a deity. Do you pray to your grandmother in heaven and expect her to answer your prayers for chocolate cookies, because your mother said no? Do you pray to your favorite waiter in heaven to answer your prayer down here because the waiter serving you at the moment is nowhere to be found?

Not the same thing. now is it?

Don't be satisfied to live in ignorance.
Educate yourself about what you are debating before embarrassing yourself any further . . .

The problem is that you refuse to see the difference between asking someone to pray for you down here or to pray to someone down here to spare your life so that person will not kill you down here as opposed to praying to a deity in the spiritual realm.

If you admit Mary is not God, then you speaking to the departed is the same practice of a medium. Jesus has risen and ascended; Mary has not. Jesus alone is at the throne of grace to be praying to for help; Mary is not and neither is she beside Him, because that is not her place.

Isaiah 45:6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Isaiah 30:1Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

The Lord needed no one before He became incarnated; and He does not need Mary even now or else He would have ascended with her. Nuff said.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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To kepha31 & BreadOfLife

Is Mary a blonde? Watch the whole video as it will encroach on that subject.


You can never know if a counterfiet comes inbetween you and Mary, which is why all invitations points you to go to the Son of God for anything. Heeding His invitations prevents the counterfeits, because in His words, God said how and by Whom He will respond by; His Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
 

epostle1

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To kepha31 & BreadOfLife
Is Mary a blonde? Watch the whole video as it will encroach on that subject.
You can never know if a counterfiet comes inbetween you and Mary, which is why all invitations points you to go to the Son of God for anything. Heeding His invitations prevents the counterfeits, because in His words, God said how and by Whom He will respond by; His Son.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me..
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
You have ignored the evidence of the obvious and this is from a Catholic source that had placed this video. Anyone can read that she answers prayers. You give an inch to Mary by even having her hear prayers, then it will become a mile that she answers them too. And it has become that.
Anyone can verify that Catholics promotes prayers to Mary and to patron saints with a guarantee that they will receive an answer directly from them.
Saints hear prayers and take them to God. Only God can answer them if He chooses. That is how a saint "answers prayers". We don't take that in the hyper-literalist sense that you do. It's shorthand for a long explanation but your sola scriptura mindset forces you to see things in one way. This is the second time you have been corrected on your preconceived notion. This is why I won't be engaging in much discussion with you because you are too proud to be corrected, and repeat the same falsehoods. Given the hostile tone of your posts, I plan on ignoring more of them.
Now if you want to continue denying that you are the one that is wrong, so be it, but I have already shown this video to you as well as the cathecism that testify to Mary being a Mediatrix, denying God's words that there is ONLY ONE Mediator. So knock it off.
You are a subordinate mediator every time you pray for someone (unless you are in some wacky cult that forbids this), so you knock it off. Your dichotomous thinking is not biblical.

So is your absurd Mary-bashing. That's why can't learn anything about her. You are like a 5 year old trying to do calculus or trigonometyry, and advanced Mariology is way over your head. You jump in the middle without starting at the beginning. Anyone has to work up slowly to calculus and trigonometry. Combine that with blind prejudice and you have little hope of understanding what the Bible says about Mary. Here is a good starting point that your prejudice won't allow you to see even if you did read it.
Catholic Marian Doctrines: A Brief Biblical Primer


all the details would fill a library.
 
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epostle1

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Dialogue: “Why pray to a saint rather than to God?”

Protestant: Why would I want to pray to any saint rather than pray directly to the Father in Jesus Name? That for me is the biggest sticking point. The Gospels point to Jesus showing us the Father directly.

Of course any of us can do that. The Bible emphasizes relationship to God, as sons and daughters to a Father. There is no question about that. But this notion is not the sole domain of Protestants (as they too often seem to think). It is also a “Catholic thing” and strongly part of our spiritual and contemplative tradition .

That said, there is also the practice of praying for each other. Protestants do that. So do we. But how do we go about it? Even in the Protestant worldview, there is this notion of “getting a holy man [or the pastor, etc.] to pray for you.” Hence, a person would, e.g., ask Billy Graham to pray for them, because it is thought that somehow his prayer might have more effect. This intuition is actually based on explicit biblical testimony: James 5:14-18

Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray: “the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination. In fact, this is a text we bring up in relation to the sacrament of anointing (also known as “extreme unction” or “last rites”: when a person is dying). So we ask them to pray due to the greater power they have in terms of a possible miracle occurring, or supernatural grace being imparted through them. They have more than we do ourselves; therefore, we ask them to pray.
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