Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

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JesusIsFaithful

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Saints hear prayers and take them to God. Only God can answer them if He chooses. That is how a saint "answers prayers". We don't take that in the hyper-literalist sense that you do. It's shorthand for a long explanation but your sola scriptura mindset forces you to see things in one way. This is the second time you have been corrected on your preconceived notion. This is why I won't be engaging in much discussion with you because you are too proud to be corrected, and repeat the same falsehoods. Given the hostile tone of your posts, I plan on ignoring more of them.
You are a subordinate mediator every time you pray for someone (unless you are in some wacky cult that forbids this), so you knock it off. Your dichotomous thinking is not biblical.

So is your absurd Mary-bashing. That's why can't learn anything about her. You are like a 5 year old trying to do calculus or trigonometyry, and advanced Mariology is way over your head. You jump in the middle without starting at the beginning. Anyone has to work up slowly to calculus and trigonometry. Combine that with blind prejudice and you have little hope of understanding what the Bible says about Mary. Here is a good starting point that your prejudice won't allow you to see even if you did read it.
Catholic Marian Doctrines: A Brief Biblical Primer


all the details would fill a library.

Only Jesus, the Son of God, gives our intercessions ( Hebrews 7:25 ) and the Spirit's intercessions ( Romans 8:26-27 KJV only ) by knowing the mind of the Spirit in giving them to God the Father. . That is what is meant by His word in 1 Timothy 2:5 that there is ONLY ONE Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; that resurrected and ascended One Whom is at that throne of grace for us; nobody else is there; not even the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Do you really have a problem with reading His words above? That is why Mary nor any patron saint are nowhere near that solitary office. There is no side office to Jesus when there is only one Mediator. That is it.

Just keep rationalizing the finality of His words in denying the only Mediator in the heavenly realm & comeuppance from the Father will come. Repent.

But I suspect you will continue to ignore the evidence that other Catholics are worshiping Mary and praying to her, expecting an answer from her to give her thanks for answered prayers. All your smoke and mirrors in denial cannot cover it up. Accuse all you want, but you are only judging yourself. Truly, you know not what you are doing.
 

epostle1

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You have fallen for too many lies for me to address in one post.
 

epostle1

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The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview

Protestants are inclined to think that scriptural evidences for the Communion of Saints are entirely lacking, but such is not the case.

1) The "Apocrypha" Perhaps the clearest proofs of this doctrine exist in the books known to Protestants as the "Apocrypha" (called "Deuterocanonical" by Catholics), which Protestants removed from the Bible (the first time this had happened in the history of Christianity). In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 Jeremiah the prophet prays for the Jews centuries after his death (compare Jer 15:1), along with the deceased high priest Onias. Likewise, Tobit 12:1-22 (especially 12,15) presents Raphael the angel as one of the "seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints." Tobit 12:15 is apparently referred to in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4, which speak of the "prayers of the saints" being offered to God, and in Rev 1:4, which mentions the "seven Spirits." There is plenty of proof, however, in Protestant Bibles, too:

2) Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace {be} unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." {cf. Rev 3:1; 4:5; 5:6}

The seven angels participate in the giving of "grace" and "peace" by God, a principle anathema to Protestants. Some Protestant commentators, aware of a certain difficulty here for their position, seek to redefine the "seven Spirits" as the Holy Spirit, but a check with the cross-references above (inc. Tobit) make this implausible. Other commentators accept these spirits as the seven archangels of Jewish angelology, as indeed they appear to be.

3) Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer {it} with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (4) And the smoke of the incense, {which came} with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

The saints (the 24 elders are usually regarded as dead Christians) and angels lay the prayers of the Christians on earth at the feet of God; that is, they are praying for them and acting as intercessory intermediaries. Thus, the propriety of invoking them logically follows from the plain fact of their intercession. This is identical to the Catholic teaching. Protestant commentaries scramble to come up with some alternate version of what is taking place here, straining at gnats, rationalizing, and splitting hairs. It is amusing to find that often these Protestant works will vehemently maintain that the Catholic view is definitely not taught in a particular Bible verse, while rarely offering a plausible or coherent alternate explanation!

Protestantism accepts the superior knowledge of angels and their ability to understand and influence our thoughts (see 1 Cor 4:9), yet illogically deny that we could ever ask them for their aid, since they construct a false dichotomy whereby invocation of any being beside God is somehow always and necessarily idolatrous. Here, in these passages, dead saints are also exercising the same function as the angels. Yet, if we can't ask either type of being for their intercession, it seems that we could not pray for each other either, since the "invocation" of a saint or angel simply means asking them for their prayers to God, not as beings who are capable of answering the prayers in and of themselves. The Protestant argument, then, proves too much and must be discarded.

4) Revelation 6:9-10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" {cf. Zech 1:12}

These dead Christian martyrs are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers," pleas for God's judgment of the wicked and vindication of the righteous (e.g., see Ps 35;69;79;109;139; Jer 11:18 ff.; 15:15 ff.; 18:19 ff.; Jesus in Mt 26:53). Thus, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth, and, by logical extension, can be asked for prayers. They are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1), and are more alive, unfathomably more righteous (Jas 5:16), and obviously closer to God than we are.

They need not be omniscient to hear our prayers, but merely out of time. It makes no less sense to ask for their prayers than to request those of any person on earth. In fact, the prayer above was answered by God who hastens the end of the age (8:1-5). Therefore, if the prayers of the Christians in heaven is so important in this instance, one can only imagine their immense weightiness in the overall scheme of things.

5) Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

The notion that every person has their own guardian angel, who has direct access to God, is strongly implied. If Jesus said He could have asked for the assistance of an angel (Mt 26:53) - and He certainly would not have been worshiping them in so doing - then we, who need their help infinitely more than He, can do the same without necessarily engaging in idolatry (anything can become an idol if we let it). Nor will it do for Protestants to equate the Intercession of the Saints with the communication with evil spirits by means of a medium or other occultic techniques. This is nonsense. The Communion of the Saints is nothing more than the recognition that saints after death (and angels) are more alive than us, aware of happenings on earth, desirous of aiding us, and able to be asked for help and to assist us with their prayer and intercession.
 
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epostle1

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6) Dead Saints Appear on Earth to Interact With Men

Not only does God not want a prohibition of contact between saints in heaven and on earth, but He goes so far as to allow, on several occasions as recorded in the Bible, dead saints to return to earth for this very purpose! These are instances accepted by Protestants, but their implications are only fully developed within Catholicism. We find, for example, Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration to talk to Jesus, while Peter, James, and John were present (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31).

Likewise, the two "witnesses" of Rev 11:3-13 are saints who had come back to life, thought by many commentators to be, again, Moses and Elijah, and by others, Enoch and Elijah. Thirdly, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him) appears in 1 Sam 28:7-20, as the great majority of commentators hold (the "Apocryphal" book Ecclesiasticus makes this clear - 46:13,20). "Many bodies of the saints" came out of their graves after Jesus' Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). Lastly, Jeremiah returns to earth (2 Maccabees 15:13-16).

All of these occurrences involve long-dead figures (as op-posed to other resurrections such as Lazarus and Jairus' daughter), and demolish the notion of Protestantism that there is an unbridgeable gulf between heaven and earth - a sort of spiritual "Berlin wall." There is no such bridge, according to the Bible, because there is only one Church and Mystical Body of Christ, and death cannot affect the communion between its members of whatever estate. It's interesting to note that Moses and Samuel, who together appear in two and perhaps three of the five examples above, are renowned among Jews and Christians for their powerful intercession (Ex 32:11-12; 1 Sam 7:9; Ps 99:6; Jer 15:1 - implied after-death prayer).

In all cases, much communication takes place with people on earth.
  • Samuel talks to Saul and Saul replies
  • Peter, James, and John may have heard Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus (it's unclear);
  • the two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years (obviously including conversation),
  • the resurrected saints of Mt 27 "appeared unto many," presumably talking with them as did Jesus in His post-Resurrection appearances; and
  • Jeremiah spoke to Judas Maccabeus.

In light of these scriptural facts,
how could anyone contend that God forbids such interaction, allowing only that between man and God, and men with men on earth? God could easily have disallowed any of these occurrences if they were indeed "contrary to the unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ."(Jesus is the sole mediator between God and the prayers of the saints, there is no violation here) In conclusion, we find, then, that all the elements of the Catholic doctrines of the Communion of Saints are undoubtedly found in the Bible, and not just in the Deuterocanonical books, for all to see.

7) The Veneration of Saints Devotions to angels and saints no more interfere and corrupt the incommunicable Glory of the Eternal God and Creator than does the love we have towards friends and relatives. A tender and healthy attachment to the saints will give vent to feelings in the language of hyperbole, just as human lovers wax eloquent in their romantic praises of each other, never intending to literally worship the object of love and affection.

If we honor the memory of political heroes (e.g., Jefferson, Lincoln) with statues, and war heroes with monuments (e.g., the Vietnam Memorial), why can we not honor the great Christian saints and the towering righteous men and women of the Old Testament? We address judges as "Your Honor" and are commanded to "honor thy mother and father" in the Ten Commandments. The saints are still alive and able to influence and assist us.

Thus, the Veneration of Saints is more than merely mental inspiration (although it includes that aspect as well). God somehow takes up into Himself the whole creation and `lives in it,' `moves' in it, and in it `is' (cf. Acts 17:28). The veneration given to angels and saints is essentially different from the worship offered to God. To God alone belongs the adoration of the whole man. But God's glory is also reflected in His children. They are dewdrops in which the sun's radiance is mirrored. They are venerated because God is present in them.

A sound biblical basis for Veneration of Saints can be found in the Pauline passages where the Apostle exhorts his followers to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 2 Thess 3:7-9) as he, in turn, imitates Jesus Christ (1 Cor 11:1; 1 Thess 1:6). Also, we are told to honor and imitate the "heroes of the faith" in Heb 6:12 and ch. 11, and to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering (Jas 5:10-11). It has been said that the painter is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows that such praise reflects back upon himself (see 2 Cor 3:18).

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/communion-of-saints/the-communion-of-saints-by-dave-armstrong/
 

Abiding Grace

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If a person is saved, they no longer have the free will to reject God's grace, which is your opinion.

You misunderstand. It's not what I believe in, it's what the Bible says. And that is why I believe it. I hardly need the help of mere men.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God.

Yes, the Bible says that salvation is of Christ, not anything I can do.

Grace, Faith and repentance are gifts.

 

BreadOfLife

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Where is Christ in your Hierarchy doesnt even exist. Replaced by teh pope. There is one Head of te hChurch, Christ Jesus and one mediatir, teh same.

Why do you insist on running away from Him
This is HILARIOUS coming from a guy who belongs to the freakish cult of aggressivechristianity.net, which was founded in 1980.

The Bible actually speaks of Bishops, priests, deacons, etc.
WHERE does the Bible speak of "Generals" leading the Church like James and Deborah Green over at this bizarre cult you belong to??
 

BreadOfLife

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You misunderstand. It's not what I believe in, it's what the Bible says. And that is why I believe it. I hardly need the help of mere men.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God.

Yes, the Bible says that salvation is of Christ, not anything I can do.
Grace, Faith and repentance are gifts.

And a gift requires our COOPERATION to accept it - unless you're a Calvinist, who believes that God spiritually rapes us and there is nothing we can do about it . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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His maybe yours not...

Whn you find the truth you will stop being angry and you wont have to spend anymore time on your favourite website. Seem their anger management course is not helping you.
There is only ONE Church.

Unfortunately - there are almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant offshoots of that ONE Church who ALL teach different doctrines while ALL claim to have the "Truth."

Your bizarre little man made cult over at "aggressivechristianity.net" is a textbook case of this.

As for being "angry" - I'm not. I just tell the truth.
When people like you LIE about what the Catholic Church teaches - there is NO better example of anger . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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"Dishonest"
"Moronic"

If I may make a comment. I've never found that name-calling is a correct debate method. It does not honor the scriptures. In fact, it violates them.

1 Corinthians 3:3King James Version (KJV)
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Galatians 5:16-21King James Version (KJV)
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 4:29King James Version (KJV)
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
James 1:26New International Version (NIV)
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless
Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? I'm always open to correction if I am wrong.
I don't think you're "misunderstanding" anything.
I think you're just being dishonest.

First of all - telling somebody that what they present in a debate is dishonest or moronic is not "name-calling".
It would be name-calling If I referred to the PERSON as a "moronn" or a "Liar". I haven't done that.

I have simply judged what they brought to the table - and that is the Biblical way to judge (Matt. 7:15-20).
 

epostle1

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1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

A surface reading of I Timothy 2:5 would seem to eliminate the idea of Christians “mediating” graces to one another: “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” Protestants will argue, “If Jesus is our one mediator, then Christ alone mediates grace. In saying anyone else can, Catholics are usurping and thereby denying Christ’s singular role as mediator. That’s blasphemy!”

THE CATHOLIC RESPONSE:

Much to the surprise of many Protestants, the Catholic Church actually acknowledges Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. In his classic, The Catholic Catechism, Fr. John Hardon explains:

… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.

This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.​

Protestants generally agree with us on this point. However, Fr. Hardon goes on to say:

Nevertheless, lesser and subordinate mediators are not excluded. The question is what purpose they serve and in what sense do they mediate. They can help the cause of mediation in the only way that human beings (or creatures) can contribute to the work of salvation, namely, by their willing response to grace; either better disposing themselves or others for divine grace, or interceding with God to give his grace, or freely cooperating with grace when conferred.​

The “lesser and subordinate mediators” is where the trouble starts. And yet, the context of I Timothy 2:5 demonstrates Fr. Hardon’s point. In the first two verses, St. Paul commands “supplications, prayers and intercessions to be made for all men...” Intercession is a synonym for mediation. Hebrews 7:24-25 refers to Jesus acting as our one mediator at the right hand of the Father and refers to him as intercessor:
But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently, he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Christ is our one mediator/intercessor, yet, St. Paul commands all Christians to be intercessors/mediators. Then notice the first word in verse five: “For there is one God and one mediator…” And then in verse seven he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle.” What is an apostle if not a mediator? The very definition of apostle, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, is “a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders.” That’s an essential part of what a mediator is. In short, St. Paul says we are all called to be mediators because Christ is the one mediator and for this reason he was called to be a mediator of God’s love and grace to the world!
Is this a contradiction? Not at all! The fact that Jesus is our one mediator does not preclude him from communicating this power by way of participation.
read more here
 
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Abiding Grace

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And a gift requires our COOPERATION to accept it - unless you're a Calvinist, who believes that God spiritually rapes us and there is nothing we can do about it . . .

I'm still waiting for anyone to show any verse in the Bible that says people have free will unto salvation.

Since, as Augustine believed, and the Bible teaches, we are chosen before the foundation of the world, there really isn't any question of what an elect person will or will not accept.

For me, anyone who implies or directly says that God is a rapist, there is no longer any discussion of the scriptures. I'm going with the Apostle Paul.

James 1:26New International Version (NIV)

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

Unlike a good many protestants, I believe that some Catholics are saved. I leave that with you.
 

Abiding Grace

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I don't think you're "misunderstanding" anything.
I think you're just being dishonest.

First of all - telling somebody that what they present in a debate is dishonest or moronic is not "name-calling".
It would be name-calling If I referred to the PERSON as a "moronn" or a "Liar". I haven't done that.

I have simply judged what they brought to the table - and that is the Biblical way to judge (Matt. 7:15-20).

Here is a lesson in communication. When you respond to a person, you are, in fact name-calling.

Another message from the Apostle Paul:

Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
 

mjrhealth

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There is only ONE Church.
Actually that is not true, there are lots of churches, man made ones, run by mnen controlled by men with mens doctirnes, yours is but one of them, There is only one "true" church if you must cal it that, it belongs to Him with Him as teh head and all His children who follow Him alone. Have no need of men for Christ is enough for them.
Now if you dont lioek it take it up with Him

Teh next few words you write will show your heart

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

As I said when you find teh truth you will stop being so angry. Why do you despise it so???
 

BreadOfLife

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Praying is asking a deity to respond.

I'll leave your deucation out of the quote box so every one can plainly read how you are misapplying what you are trying to educate us in.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
transitive verb
1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Notice that the primary definition of "Pray" simply means to ASK - and that's what we do when we pray to Mary and the saints in Heaven.
We ASK them to pray for us. For your information - everybody on this forum is praying to each other by asking one another to explain their position.

When you ask someone down here to "pray" for you to God, that is not you praying to them. That is you asking them. You are ignoring the second definition in each definition of the intransitive verb when it comes to how praying applies to deity. I have underlined it for you.

People use the term pray towards people when they beg, but that is not spiritually "praying" to a deity for a response. That first definition in each of your two examples for the intransitive verb is not the same as the second definition and surely not applied in the same manner.

You keep referring to people down here and yet Mary is no longer down here. Prayers offered in the spiritual realm has always been given to a deity. Do you pray to your grandmother in heaven and expect her to answer your prayers for chocolate cookies, because your mother said no? Do you pray to your favorite waiter in heaven to answer your prayer down here because the waiter serving you at the moment is nowhere to be found?

Not the same thing. now is it?

The problem is that you refuse to see the difference between asking someone to pray for you down here or to pray to someone down here to spare your life so that person will not kill you down here as opposed to praying to a deity in the spiritual realm.

If you admit Mary is not God, then you speaking to the departed is the same practice of a medium. Jesus has risen and ascended; Mary has not. Jesus alone is at the throne of grace to be praying to for help; Mary is not and neither is she beside Him, because that is not her place.

Isaiah 45:6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Isaiah 30:1Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

The Lord needed no one before He became incarnated; and He does not need Mary even now or else He would have ascended with her. Nuff said.[/QUOTE]
Careful - your ignorance is showing again.

First of all - to "Pray", as I have amply illustrated simply means to ASK, to ENTREAT, to SUPPLICATE to make a REQUEST or PLEA. It has nothing to do with a deity except in the case of adoration.
You can try to twist that as much as you want - but you are simply being dishonest.

Asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us is NO different than asking a person here on earth to do the same thing. The ONLY difference is that those in Heaven have been made perfect in Christ and those here on earth are flawed, sinful human beings.

Secondly - your insistence that praying to a saint in Heaven for prayers is a violation against the Levitical prohibition against seeking mediums for the purpose of necromancy is about as ridiculous as anything you've claimed so far. Necromancy is the seeking oracles from the dead. In other words - to glean information from them. Asking a person in Heaven to pray for us is NOT necromancy.

The anti-Catholic position against having fellow members of the Body of Christ to pray for them is asinine - and Scripturally-bankrupt.
Only a hypocrite would call this necromancy as they themselves pray for others.

Finally - your comparison to asking a saint in Heaven to pray for me with asking my dead grandmother for cookies is so preposterous and immature that it doesn't deserve a response. Ummmm, grow up . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Here is a lesson in communication. When you respond to a person, you are, in fact name-calling.

Another message from the Apostle Paul:
Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
Translation: "I have no idea how to respond to the truth you have presented - so I'll attack your method of presentation instead."

Good for you . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Actually that is not true, there are lots of churches, man made ones, run by mnen controlled by men with mens doctirnes, yours is but one of them, There is only one "true" church if you must cal it that, it belongs to Him with Him as teh head and all His children who follow Him alone. Have no need of men for Christ is enough for them.
Now if you dont lioek it take it up with Him

Teh next few words you write will show your heart

Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

As I said when you find teh truth you will stop being so angry. Why do you despise it so???
So, in your opinion, the ONE true Church established by Jesus was AggressiveChristianity.net, founded in 1980 by James and Deborah Green??
That is a looney claim . . .

The ONLY Church that can trace itself back to the Apostles in an UNBROKEN line of succession is the Catholic Church.
Not ONE, single Protestant sect can make this claim . . .
 

Abiding Grace

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Translation: "I have no idea how to respond to the truth you have presented - so I'll attack your method of presentation instead."

Good for you . . .

The Apostle Paul instructed Christians and how to interact with each other. Because it is holy scripture, I follow it and suggest you do the same.

Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
 

BreadOfLife

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The Apostle Paul instructed Christians and how to interact with each other. Because it is holy scripture, I follow it and suggest you do the same.

Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
None of what we've been discussing is a "foolish" controversy.
It's only "foolish" when you have no answer . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I'm still waiting for anyone to show any verse in the Bible that says people have free will unto salvation.

Since, as Augustine believed, and the Bible teaches, we are chosen before the foundation of the world, there really isn't any question of what an elect person will or will not accept.

For me, anyone who implies or directly says that God is a rapist, there is no longer any discussion of the scriptures. I'm going with the Apostle Paul.

James 1:26New International Version (NIV)
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.


Unlike a good many protestants, I believe that some Catholics are saved. I leave that with you.

Ummmmm, first of all – I never said or implied that God was a “rapist.”
I simply stated that YOUR view of Him makes Him a rapist. This discussion is being constantly marred by your complete inability to be truthful. Stop being dishonest and start practicing what you preach.

Augustine’s views on predestination may have started out resembling the classic Calvinist position. He was opposed by other Church Fathers at the time. Later, it was during his dialogues and debates with Pelagius that his views matured.

The Calvinist doctrine of Double Predestination is a man made invention that came out of the head of John Calvin in the 1`6th century. The idea that God actually creates some for salvation and the rest for eternal damnation is completely UN-Biblical.

We are told in 1 Tim. 2:4 that God wills the salvation of ALL people and that they ALL come to a knowledge of the truth.

In Matt. 23:37, Jesus tells apostate Jerusalem:
“How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but YOU were not willing!”

John 3:16 says in NO uncertain terms:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Mark 8:34 explicitly says:
“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.”

These verses show that salvation is only possible OUR cooperation with God’s grace - obliterating the false doctrine of Double Predestination.
As for who is saved and who is not - that is not for me to decide. Only GOD knows that . . .
 

Marymog

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The Apostle Paul instructed Christians and how to interact with each other. Because it is holy scripture, I follow it and suggest you do the same.

Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

I agree. We should avoid a factious man after a first and second warning. This passage mirrors Matthew 18:17 which goes on to say we should let The Church decide.

I know which Church Breadoflife chooses. Which Church do you choose?