Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
Can you be saved if you don't believe in the diety of Christ?
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John 8.24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
- Aug 10, 2012
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Good question, one I've asked before so as to ascertain the importance of the doctrine of the trinity and angered a few for even asking.
Can one believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, but not believe he is God in the flesh? Interpreting the word messiah figuratively instead of literally, "God is with us."
I can see clear examples of Jesus hinting that he is God. And I've seen his disciples declare with faith who he is, and were blessed and not rebuked.
Jesus let people learn the truth of his divinity as an expression of their faith. Which is pleasing to him. Did the thief beside Jesus on the cross know he is God? He believed what he heard about Jesus' ministry and stook his life on it, cause he had nothing left to lose.
Can one believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, but not believe he is God in the flesh? Interpreting the word messiah figuratively instead of literally, "God is with us."
I can see clear examples of Jesus hinting that he is God. And I've seen his disciples declare with faith who he is, and were blessed and not rebuked.
Jesus let people learn the truth of his divinity as an expression of their faith. Which is pleasing to him. Did the thief beside Jesus on the cross know he is God? He believed what he heard about Jesus' ministry and stook his life on it, cause he had nothing left to lose.
No. If Jesus is not God, He cannot be your Lord and Savior either. Only God as Man could die for the sins of the whole world, and rise again on the third day.
Hello friend of,
The trinity doesn’t matter.
What matters is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the savior of the world. Who paid for your sin, who was buried, and was resurrected again by God on the third day. The deity of Christ, is that Jesus is Son of God born from above. He was the Word of God before humbling himself, and came down to a lower estate, being born of flesh. To become the living sacrifice for all of mankind. In the end by the revelation you come upon the notion of Jesus being the Lord God Almighty.
I believe the faith is subjective: and there are People out there who may not have a grasp on these things however they believe in God, and believing in Gospel of Christ, it is the power of God unto Salvation.
What do you believe would happen if someone died today not believing the trinity or understanding the deity of Christ yet they lived by faith, of his death, burial, and resurrection?
From my understanding God deals different measures of Faith.
“For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith, for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office, so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another.”
Romans 12:3-5 YLT98
God is the judge at the end of our life. Therefore continue to share Christ if you are lead to with others.
In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher
The trinity doesn’t matter.
What matters is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the savior of the world. Who paid for your sin, who was buried, and was resurrected again by God on the third day. The deity of Christ, is that Jesus is Son of God born from above. He was the Word of God before humbling himself, and came down to a lower estate, being born of flesh. To become the living sacrifice for all of mankind. In the end by the revelation you come upon the notion of Jesus being the Lord God Almighty.
I believe the faith is subjective: and there are People out there who may not have a grasp on these things however they believe in God, and believing in Gospel of Christ, it is the power of God unto Salvation.
What do you believe would happen if someone died today not believing the trinity or understanding the deity of Christ yet they lived by faith, of his death, burial, and resurrection?
From my understanding God deals different measures of Faith.
“For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith, for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office, so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another.”
Romans 12:3-5 YLT98
God is the judge at the end of our life. Therefore continue to share Christ if you are lead to with others.
In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher
The King James translators did everyone a great disservice in not translating this properly. The way it should read (based on the Greek text) is: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins."
This harks back to Exodus 3:13-15 where Jesus said that His name was "I AM THAT I AM" or "I AM" and this was his name for all generations. In that context He is called "God", "the LORD", and "the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob". Yet He appeared to Moses as "the Angel of the LORD" and demanded that Moses remove his shoes from his feet because he was standing on holy ground. The Angel of the LORD was the pre-incarnate Christ.
I work with someone who is a JW. I want to talk to her about it but she shot me down. She thinks the trinity is false. How do I approach her? Should I try to engage her? I'd like to read her Hebrews 1 anyway.
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You could have casual conversations from the KJV, noting the differences between it and the NWT. There is definitely some funny business going on there. But consider she may just be religious and not really care about spiritual things.
Jehovahs witness must be taught that Jesus is God.
1Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the Lord:
For there is none beside thee:
Neither is there any rock like our God.
God is referred to figuratively in the OT as Rock.
Is Jesus a man or God?
1Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
And that Rock was Christ.
Rock is God in the Old testament.
That Rock(God) is revealed in the new testament as Jesus!
Therefore the answer is Yes! The Bible affirms Jesus as God.
When Jesus taught His commission to be proclaimed to the whole world by His disciples.
Jesus said to teach them what?
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught that all should be baptized by Gods authority.
That God Jesus refers to is the God-head.
The next verse, Jesus commands them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever He has commanded.
Therefore, since Jesus taught the God-head to be proclaimed to all those who hear the gospel of Christ.
It must be inferred that God requires folks who are to be taught the gospel know who God is!
Who is God?
He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
For those who need to be saved, they need to know according to Jesus who God is.
Just as we would not allow someone to believe God is the Muslim god Allah.
We must also not allow folks who desire to be saved believe God is Jesus(oneness doctrine)
Or Jesus is not God but the Father is. The lost must know who God is.
1Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the Lord:
For there is none beside thee:
Neither is there any rock like our God.
God is referred to figuratively in the OT as Rock.
Is Jesus a man or God?
1Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
And that Rock was Christ.
Rock is God in the Old testament.
That Rock(God) is revealed in the new testament as Jesus!
Therefore the answer is Yes! The Bible affirms Jesus as God.
When Jesus taught His commission to be proclaimed to the whole world by His disciples.
Jesus said to teach them what?
Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught that all should be baptized by Gods authority.
That God Jesus refers to is the God-head.
The next verse, Jesus commands them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever He has commanded.
Therefore, since Jesus taught the God-head to be proclaimed to all those who hear the gospel of Christ.
It must be inferred that God requires folks who are to be taught the gospel know who God is!
Who is God?
He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
For those who need to be saved, they need to know according to Jesus who God is.
Just as we would not allow someone to believe God is the Muslim god Allah.
We must also not allow folks who desire to be saved believe God is Jesus(oneness doctrine)
Or Jesus is not God but the Father is. The lost must know who God is.
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Had the Jews in the temple understood Jesus to mean he is God they would have tried to stone him, like they attempted in John 8:58 when he also declared himself the I Am. Perhaps the first time they didn't understand what he was saying because it needed the context of him being before Abraham for them to understand.
So indeed you are right.
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Well what does scripture say about how to be saved? Does it mention explicitly that there exists a trinity doctrine and then required for salvation? Does it mention explicitly the deity of Christ and then required for salvation? Answer these honestly under some study and in the guidance of the Spirit and you have your answer. Now the reverse could also be true! i.e. those believing in a trinity or in the deity of Christ might not be saved at all. You never know until you really know..
Nobody is saved by arguing theology, so that's not the approach to take. And JW such arguments rehearsed at them every meeting. You'll get no where that way.
A far better approach: show, don't tell. Show her how you love God, and how His light shines through you. How you live in love & freedom, not afraid of death or destruction or anything. And she'll see that and it'll make an impact. Let your door be open, with a friendly face she knows she can trust & is filled God's genuine love. And then she'll come when she's ready.
And in the mean time, never write somebody off an "unsaved goner". God's power is amazing, trust & hope in Him.
or these?
Only God can be all knowing and therefore the just judge!
Final judgement by Jesus Christ the eternal God!
John 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing!
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Only God has this power!
the divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are “Christian doctrines” revealed by Christ to the church of the apostles; to deny them is to deny Christ and salvation!
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Trinity / Divinity
1 Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
“Nobody is saved arguing theology” that’s a good one!
Lol!
have a good weekend everybody!
P.s (pray soon) arguing is fun!
The national pastime!
Paul Christensen
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The short answer is, No!
The way a word is spelled makes all the difference to the meaning. The deity of Christ is one thing, being on a food diet in the name of Christ is quite another!
I read a quote that said
" stop arguing with the saved; start preaching to the lost "
I think it's good advice tbh
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
As a JW, feel free to ask me anything you like. I’m sure that she was willing to discuss, but not to agree that Jesus is God because it simply does not even mention a trinity in the Bible.
If you would like to discuss Hebrews 1…I am happy to do that.
I know that the trinity has become the very foundation of Christendom’s teaching, but if Jesus never once said that he was God or even his equal, where did such a notion come from? Jesus was Jewish and he taught from Jewish scripture…..there is no trinity even hinted at in those scriptures. No Jew would have accepted that their Messiah was God incarnate…..they wanted to stone him for claiming that he was God’s son.
It is curious that no Abrahamic faith accepts a trinity except Christendom, and only officially accepted it hundreds of years after Jesus died……and yet paganism is full of trinities of gods. Google pagan trinities and see….
When the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus in order to have an excuse to put him to death…..
John 10:31-36…
“Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
If people stumble over the word “god” (theos) in the Christian Bible then here is a classic example of what that word really means…..God himself called the human judges in Israel “gods” because they had his divine authority. The “divinity” of Christ is not proclaiming that he is the Almighty, but that he has divine authority that was *given* to him by his Father.
Matthew 28:18-20….
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
Jesus’ disciples were told by whose authority he spoke and whose words he spoke…..and they were in no doubt as to who was their God, and who was their Lord and teacher Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6….
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”
It is very clear and simple…no tap dancing required……Christendom has it all wrong and the charge is
Blasphemy!….they have put two other “gods” in the Father’s place…something no Jew could ever have done. It was a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
At the judgment Jesus calls the ones he has rejected, “workers of lawlessness”…(Matthew 7:21-23) ….this is the law they break. It carried the death penalty.
I am open for any new discussion on this….
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
There's a real problem with that, though. Scripture contradicts it.
In the first place, not one single recorded instance of Jesus' disciples baptizing someone, did they use the trinity method. They were all, every one of them, performed in the Name of Jesus Christ. Did they ignore Jesus' command? Did they misunderstand Him? Impossible.
The other issue is who exactly Jesus describes the Holy Spirit to be. And He makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is He AND the Father, both. That not only contradicts the Trinity, but it contradicts the idea that Jesus is not God and that there is more than one God. It fully supports oneness doctrine. As do many Old Testament quotes from God Himself. Here's the passage.
"... he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself (Jesus) to him. ... If a man love Me (Jesus), ... My Father will love him, and we (Jesus AND the Father) will come unto him, and make our abode with him (live in Him as the Holy Spirit)."
John 14:21
John 14:23
These are contradictions straight from scripture; zero opinion or bias whatsoever.
If the lost must know who God is, they must have all the scripture available on the subject to come to that conclusion. Not just those that appear to support the most popular doctrines in modern Christendom.
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