atpollard
Well-Known Member
Perhaps if you are ignorant, but probably not if you deny the truth.Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
God has the final decision on who makes the cut.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Perhaps if you are ignorant, but probably not if you deny the truth.Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
There's a real problem with that, though. Scripture contradicts it.
In the first place, not one single recorded instance of Jesus' disciples baptizing someone, did they use the trinity method. They were all, every one of them, performed in the Name of Jesus Christ. Did they ignore Jesus' command? Did they misunderstand Him? Impossible.
The other issue is who exactly Jesus describes the Holy Spirit to be. And He makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is He AND the Father, both. That not only contradicts the Trinity, but it contradicts the idea that Jesus is not God and that there is more than one God. It fully supports oneness doctrine. As do many Old Testament quotes from God Himself. Here's the passage.
"... he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself (Jesus) to him. ... If a man love Me (Jesus), ... My Father will love him, and we (Jesus AND the Father) will come unto him, and make our abode with him (live in Him as the Holy Spirit)."
John 14:21
John 14:23
These are contradictions straight from scripture; zero opinion or bias whatsoever.
If the lost must know who God is, they must have all the scripture available on the subject to come to that conclusion. Not just those that appear to support the most popular doctrines in modern Christendom.
As a JW, feel free to ask me anything you like. I’m sure that she was willing to discuss, but not to agree that Jesus is God because it simply does not even mention a trinity in the Bible.
If you would like to discuss Hebrews 1…I am happy to do that.
I know that the trinity has become the very foundation of Christendom’s teaching, but if Jesus never once said that he was God or even his equal, where did such a notion come from? Jesus was Jewish and he taught from Jewish scripture…..there is no trinity even hinted at in those scriptures. No Jew would have accepted that their Messiah was God incarnate…..they wanted to stone him for claiming that he was God’s son.
It is curious that no Abrahamic faith accepts a trinity except Christendom, and only officially accepted it hundreds of years after Jesus died……and yet paganism is full of trinities of gods. Google pagan trinities and see….
When the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus in order to have an excuse to put him to death…..
John 10:31-36…
“Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
If people stumble over the word “god” (theos) in the Christian Bible then here is a classic example of what that word really means…..God himself called the human judges in Israel “gods” because they had his divine authority. The “divinity” of Christ is not proclaiming that he is the Almighty, but that he has divine authority that was *given* to him by his Father.
Matthew 28:18-20….
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
Jesus’ disciples were told by whose authority he spoke and whose words he spoke…..and they were in no doubt as to who was their God, and who was their Lord and teacher Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6….
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”
It is very clear and simple…no tap dancing required……Christendom has it all wrong and the charge is
Blasphemy!….they have put two other “gods” in the Father’s place…something no Jew could ever have done. It was a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
At the judgment Jesus calls the ones he has rejected, “workers of lawlessness”…(Matthew 7:21-23) ….this is the law they break. It carried the death penalty.
I am open for any new discussion on this….
33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”
Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
Who told you that? Have you ever really done any serious investigation into your allegation? Please show us where the NWT is in error....and I will show you why you are wrong.You are using the Jehovah witness Bible, which is a perversion of the true Bible.
There is no definite article (ho) with "theos" indicating "a god" not "ho theos" meaning "THE God". YHWH (Yahweh)John 10:33 says God. Your Bible wrongly says a god.
Don't look now but trinitarians have three gods. Squeezing them into one "head" doesn't cancel out the polytheism. There is "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit".....1+1+1=3.No way possible your Jehovah witness Bible is correct on this verse.
The Jews were monotheists!
They did not believe in multiple gods!
Who told you that? It is apparent that you are taking your information from uninformed and biased sources.Therefore, they would never have said to Jesus, "you make yourself a god".
They really said to Jesus that they stone Him for claiming to be God!
False interpretation from Jehovahs witness Bible:
Who said? I have no idea why there is an assumption that because Jesus was a son of God that he must be God.True interpretation of John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, saying,
For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.
In John 10:37 Jesus speaks of His Father. We know Jesus had no earthly Dad.
Jesus' Father is God. Therefore Jesus must also be God.
Does it? What does "only begotten" mean? The Greek word is "monogenes" and it simply means an "only child"...it is not a special word used to describe Jesus. According to Revelation 3:14, Jesus called himself "the beginning of God's creation".It is said Joseph Mary's husband did not have sexual relations with Mary until she bore her first Son Jesus.
Matthew 1:24-25
Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
We know Jesus had no physical father.
No one except Jesus is Gods only begotten Son.
This makes Jesus God.
Great question!Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?
ALL persons cling to their beliefs sternly, no matter their creed.Good luck on sharing with you Jw friend.
I miss talking to my old Jw friend.
They are very stern on how they do things, and possibly hard to change their mind, same thing with Mormons.
I am not so much concerned with people who are lost, as I am those who have already found Christ, and desire to learn more about him. To me Jesus wasn't a created being, He was the Word of God in the beginning, and came down from heaven leaving the bosom of the Father. Jesus was the expressed image of the invisible God (God's heart/mind/will/emotion).
It seems all these differences God has allowed for some reason, but the truth is still founded and rest upon the Bible as a whole. I believe that most versions of the Bible are as good as they can be.
Though I do not believe Jesus was - a God - or a created being. Though He was born into flesh. He existed in the beginning with God, and was the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit was hovering above the waters of the yet to be formed earth.
Just my thoughts,
God bless,
Matthew Gallagher.
Who told you that? Have you ever really done any serious investigation into your allegation? Please show us where the NWT is in error....and I will show you why you are wrong.
There is no definite article (ho) with "theos" indicating "a god" not "ho theos" meaning "THE God". YHWH (Yahweh)
Here it is from the Greek Interlinear......John 10:33
"The ho Jews Ioudaios answered apokrinomai him autos, “It is not ou for peri a noble kalos work ergon that we intend to stone lithazō you sy but alla for peri blasphemy blasphēmia; · kai it is because hoti you sy, a mere man anthrōpos, are making poieō yourself seautou God theos.”
This is "theos" without the definite article. If the Jews had been accusing Jesus of claiming to be "THE God", they lied.
Contrast John 10:33 with John 1:1....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
The use of the definite article (the, ho) is confirmation that it is talking about Yahweh (Jehovah) as in the first mention of "theos" but the definite article (ho) is missing from the second "theos". "The Word" was not 'THE God', so he was "a god". Nowhere in any scripture did Jesus ever claim to be "God". Please provide a scripture where Jesus ever said he was Almighty God....?
Acts 12:22...It was said of King Herod that the crowd expressed that his was the voice of "a god".....
"But de the ho crowd dēmos began to shout epiphōneō, “It is the voice phōnē of a god theos, and kai not ou of a man anthrōpos!”
There is no definite article, so it is rendered "a god".
"Theos" is a word that means...."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities" so it is not a word used exclusively for Jehovah. It means any divine personage or one who was divinely authorized. Calling Jesus "theos" in no way makes him a deity equal to his God and Father. He definitely had divine authority however. (Matthew 28:18)
Don't look now but trinitarians have three gods. Squeezing them into one "head" doesn't cancel out the polytheism. There is "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit".....1+1+1=3.
Who told you that? It is apparent that you are taking your information from uninformed and biased sources.
Jesus said that he was God's son, not that he was God. (Read the account John 10:31-36)
So if the Jews were claiming he was God, they were lying because they were trying to pin a charge on him that incurred the death penalty. They wanted him dead.
Who said? I have no idea why there is an assumption that because Jesus was a son of God that he must be God.
Was Jesus the only "son of God"....not according to Genesis 6:2, 4.....Angels are also called "sons of God"...even Adam is called a "son of God". (Luke 3:38)
Does it? What does "only begotten" mean? The Greek word is "monogenes" and it simply means an "only child"...it is not a special word used to describe Jesus. According to Revelation 3:14, Jesus called himself "the beginning of God's creation".
And Colossians 1:15-17 calls Jesus...."the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (NASB)
What does "firstborn" mean?.....it means what it says...the firstborn of man or animals.
"Only begotten" means that this "firstborn" son was the first and only direct creation of his Father. The son was then used as the agency "through" whom the rest of creation came.
Perhaps some Bible study and unbiased research might help you with the facts rather than relying on what others have told you.....?
Who told you that? Have you ever really done any serious investigation into your allegation? Please show us where the NWT is in error....and I will show you why you are wrong
look now but trinitarians have three gods. Squeezing them into one "head" doesn't cancel out the polytheism. There is "God the Father", "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit".....1+1+1=3.
Hence why I share truth with you. No Christian, of any denomination, needs false information about what others believe.I am not Jehovah witness or Mormon.
A Christian who desires truth, thank you.
There’s actually two people by the name “Jane” here.Thank for you comment. I believe the Holy Bible is sufficient to learn from, Jane. You take care now.
I worship with the True Church that is Sola Scriptura. Denomination means absolutely nothing if your doctrine is not in line with what the Bible teaches in its entirety. That means not making doctrine out of a single verse or passage in scripture with nothing elsewhere to support it.Which church do you worship with?
Are they charismatic, penetcostal?
The Bible is clear that God is speaking before all the angels of heaven when He makes that statement. You have been brainwashed, or otherwise chosen, to believe that because God uses a plural statement, it absolutely proves that God is 3 people. That is very, very naive.The God-head is ancient teaching not modern. Genesis 1:26 Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion..... God refers to Himself as Us, Our image.
Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us,....
There is only one Name in heaven and earth by which we must be saved. ONE Name.Peter did not preach one must say "in the name of Jesus I baptize you" in Acts 2:38.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Peter taught that the baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ.
You are blind to the Truth. The entire interaction between Philip and the eunuch was about Jesus Christ.Philip never said Jesus' name by mouth when he baptized the eunuch.
There is no commandment in the new testament that teaches we must say Jesus' name before one is baptized.
No, you're a stubborn refuser of Truth. Your pride is on display and it is despicable before God.No one tells me what to believe, that I blindly follow.
I have a rule I live by.
Everything that is told to me pertaining to scriptures, is not proven until it can be confirmed with scripture.
The Bible itself is the best interpreter of itself.
I worship with the True Church that is Sola Scriptura. Denomination means absolutely nothing if your doctrine is not in line with what the Bible teaches in its entirety. That means not making doctrine out of a single verse or passage in scripture with nothing elsewhere to support it.
The Bible is clear that God is speaking before all the angels of heaven when He makes that statement. You have been brainwashed, or otherwise chosen, to believe that because God uses a plural statement, it absolutely proves that God is 3 people. That is very, very naive.
The Bible supports no doctrine whatsoever of 3 Persons as God Almighty - neither does any human logic. They cannot be 3 persons and be one god. The trinity definition, itself, claims that they are 3 different people, but one god. That is preposterous by any spiritual or physical logic; and it is supported by zero scripture.
There is only one Name in heaven and earth by which we must be saved. ONE Name.
Acts 4:10-12
You are blind to the Truth. The entire interaction between Philip and the eunuch was about Jesus Christ.
"Then Philip opened his mouth, ... and preached unto him Jesus."
Acts 8:35
"And Philip said, if thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 8:37
All the Bible tells us next is that "he baptized him". It doesn't give us exactly what Philip spoke. That is FAR from any measure of proof that he didn't baptize in Jesus' Name. And every other example in scripture of baptism uses the Name of Jesus Christ.
You must do a whole lot of ignoring scripture to arrive at the conclusion, and belief, that you have embraced. You are a follower of men, and have been taught by such - certainly NOT by God or His Word.
No, you're a stubborn refuser of Truth. Your pride is on display and it is despicable before God.
You've been presented with scripture and you're deaf-earing it. You are prideful and can't hear plain wisdom. Your avatar pic proves that.
You exalt yourself, not God. Only YOU can be right. And if what you believe is shown to be contrary to scripture, you deny it because it threatens your pride.
Humble yourself before God and you will be shown the Truth of His Word. Until then, He will not even hear your prayers.
I did this with my first response. As I said, you deaf-eared it.Its generally true that when a person debating another cannot give good sound evidence of their position they attack their opponents character as you have done with me.
You can tell plenty about somebody by what they write. Just as the Bible shows us about God.You Sir, do not know me from Adam.