Can you be saved if you don't believe in the diety of Christ?

[Lambano]

Another way of stating it is: Whom are you trusting as Saviour?

And my point was, is there going to be a pass/fail quiz about what we believe ABOUT Jesus? Or is it all about trusting Jesus to save us?

 

[MatthewG]

A head full of information on its own even if it is correct is useless.
The devils know more facts than any of us but the relationship they have with Jesus is antagonistic.....a lot of good that'll do them!

The only thing that matters is knowing Jesus. That'll be the litmus test. To one crowd who boasted in their association with Jesus, Jesus says, 'I never knew you'....and in spite of their objections he qualifies them as evil doers......interesting huh?

A head full of right theology with no heart is the highway of self deception.

Quietthinker,

Is this why it is essential to live and walk by the spirit?

 

[Lambano]

A head full of right theology with no heart is the highway of self deception.

This one deserves to be highlighted.

 

[farouk]

And my point was, is there going to be a pass/fail quiz about what we believe ABOUT Jesus? Or is it all about trusting Jesus to save us?

On Who He is, so much depends...

Matthew 22.42: "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?"

 

[Titus]

No, again, you have misread my reply. The Jews wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus to give them an excuse to execute him. Since Jesus had never once claimed to be God, (he himself had only ever said “I am the Son of God”) how could the Jews have accused him of something no one had ever heard him say?

If they wanted to kill him because he claimed to be “God’s son”, they would have had a legal right to put him to death if he had claimed to be ‘God incarnate’, because he would have broken the First Commandment

Jesus was not guilty because He is God. The Jews had no right to kill Jesus for telling the truth.

The JW Bible (NWT) was written to teach the watch tower's false doctrine that Jesus never claimed to be God.

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

Aunty Jane teaches these jews accused Jesus of being a god, not God(Jehovah).
The N.W.T. perverts John 10:33 to fit their belief that Jesus never claimed to be God.

Jesus claimed to be Jehovah, this is why,

Go back in time from John 10:33 to John 8:58 and it will be revealed that Jesus said I AM. Same way God addresses Himself in Exodus 3:14
-And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM, Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus claimed to be eternal in John 8:58.

Jehovahs Witnesses have tried to avoid the force of John 8:58. The NWT was created to pervert John 8:58,
JW declared that eimi, Greek verb form for I AM was in the greek imperfect indefinite tense and thus mistranslated it "I have been".
There is no such tense in the Greek language!

JW's have since corrected their error of Greek grammar, but not their translation.

eimi is present tense, which in greek language indicates continuous action.
Gods self-assigned name is translated in Greek as ego eimi ho.
Meaning I am the one who is.
Jesus used this Greek word in John 8:58!

Jesus told the Jews He is Jehovah!
This is the reason the Jews attempted to stone Jesus!
This proves the NWT is a perversion of Gods holy word.

Aunty Jane admits JW believe in multiple gods.
This proves JW are polytheist's not those who believe in the God-head.

There are no other gods. The scriptures teach this truth.

Isaiah 43:10
You are my witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed. Nor shall there be after Me.

Aunty Jane's JW translation of,

The angels were called "'ĕlōhîm" compared to humans in Psalm 8:5-6 which means...

1. "rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods" (Strongs)

Psalm 8:5-6 in other translations reads....
"Yet You have made him a little lower than [a]God, ['ĕlōhîm]
And You crown him with glory and majesty!"

1. Footnote: [a]Psalm 8:5 LXX angels

Proves that she is not a Greek scholar. She knows not what she says.
She does not understand Greek language.
If the angels are gods as Aunty Jane claims, then the Bible contradicts itself.

I am not a Greek scholar and neither is Aunty Jane.
The JW use Greek just as the catholic church burned Bibles.
In an attempt to keep folks from knowing what sayeth the scriptures.

 

[friend of]

"I AM" is not the meaning of God's name given in Exodus 3:13-15.
This is how the Jewish Tanakh renders that passage

Yes it is actually. GOD called Himself "I AM"
Jesus called Himself "I AM"

Before Abraham was, Jesus is God.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

GOD called Himself "I AM"
Jesus called Himself "I AM"

Jesus did not say his name was “I am”, he was simply making a contrast between Abraham and his eminence over him in John 8:58

 

[Titus]

Jesus did not say his name was “I am”, he was simply making a contrast between Abraham and his eminence over him in John 8:58

Jesus said He was before Abraham. If Jesus is just a man how can he exist before Abraham?
Why does Jesus claim to be eternal?

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

John 17:5
And now O Father, glorify thou Me with thine own self with glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

Jesus teaches He is eternal.

 

[EloyCraft]

They had seen Jesus pray to his Father. Does one part of God pray to his equal self?

Jesus, limited by His human body lacked the omniscience of the Father. If this weren't so He would be doing His own will.
On earth we do this or that because its good. If we could be good we wouldn't do this or that because its good. It would be good because we did it.

 

[Titus]

Jesus, limited by His human body lacked the omniscience of the Father. If this weren't so He would be doing His own will.
On earth we do this or that because its good. If we could be good we wouldn't do this or that because its good. It would be good because we did it.

Hello, never seen you on the forum!

How is it possible for Jesus to be man only when He never sinned?
The scriptures make it clear that no man can leave this earth without sin.

1John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1Peter 2:22
Who(Jesus) did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.

The Bible teaches it is impossible for man to never commit sin.
Jesus accomplished what no mere man could.

 

[EloyCraft]

Hello, never seen you on the forum!

How is it possible for Jesus to be man only when He never sinned?
The scriptures make it clear that no man can leave this earth without sin.

1John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1Peter 2:22
Who(Jesus) did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.

The Bible teaches it is impossible for man to never commit sin.
Jesus accomplished what no mere man could.

Are you saying it was impossible for Adam to avoid committing a sin? Nice to meet you by the way.

 

[Titus]

Are you saying it was impossible for Adam to avoid committing a sin? Nice to meet you by the way.

Good question!

I'm not a calvinist. Does that answer your question?
What do you think?

 

[Titus]

They had seen Jesus pray to his Father. Does one part of God pray to his equal self?

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
Yes He does pray to His Father.

John 12:49
For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
God reasons within Himself.
Who is His self?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Jesus prays.
Therefore Jesus does not act independently from His Father. They(Father,Son, Holy Spirit) work in perfect unison.

The fact that Jesus prays to His Father disproves oneness doctrine. It proves unity.

 

[Johann]

I apologize for the length of this, but there is a lot to address, so I'll break it up....


I couldn’t agree more. I myself am a stickler for scripture but I also am a stickler for original word study. The way original language speakers understood words according to their religion is more important than how later corrupted churches interpreted them. It requires more than a cursory reading of "words". To read without understanding is futile.


That is not true either. We can use any translation we like. I use a range of translations here because I understand that people like yourself have been persuaded to believe that the NWT is not accurate. I will debate that with you any time if you would like to give me examples other than John 10:33, which I have already detailed, and which you have completely misunderstood.


Finding translation errors was the reason.
Let me give you one glaring example....
The KJV is a translation that many revere as authentic, but in today’s world is a dinosaur with its archaic English and odd phrasing, but the KJV was translated by trinitarians and its bias is obvious when you study it.

John 1:1 (a trinitarian’s favorite) is translated the same in most English Bibles because all believed in the indoctrinated trinity, and so the errors were not obvious. The absence of the definite article didn’t seem to matter, but in Greek, it was vital to identify the true God from the “theos” who was his son and which identified others as authorized by him, but who are not Jehovah.
If the Jews had retained the divine name (as their scripture had instructed) instead of eliminating it from their speech, we would not be having this conversation.

John 1:1 would have read....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine.”

Verse 14 would have been understood to mean the opposite of how it is read today....
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.”.....it has a completely different meaning.

“The Word” was not “ho theos” so not “THE God” but “theos” a divine one who was “with the God” “in the beginning”.....he was "an only begotten son". In order to be "begotten" one needs a 'begetter' who existed before him. Never do a father and son come into existence at the same time. It is God and his son who identify their relationship to humans. If it is not the same as we understand, then why identify themselves that way?

And since Jehovah had no “beginning” this too is important, because the Word did.
“These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God” (Revelation 3:14) Since the Revelation was given in a chain.....from God to Jesus to the angel, and then to John, (Revelation 1:1) this is God and his son both saying that Jesus is the “beginning of God’s creation”.

What else do we see when we read on? Verse 18 says in the KJV....
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” I guess you would not see a problem....most people don’t. But there is no “Son” in that verse. If you look it up in other translations out will find similar wording inferring that the Son is God, but it says more correctly....”
"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)

Now look at the way it was translated in the revised NASB 2020....
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB 2020)
Which is more correct when compared with the Greek text? They had it right the first time....”monogenes theos” (only begotten god) was in the original text. There is no "God the only Son".

The opening words to John 1:18 declare that "No one has seen God at any time"......how many people saw Jesus Christ?

So please don’t tell me that going back to original word meanings to dispel an ancient myth adopted by a corrupted church hundreds of years after Jesus ‘ death, is not the correct thing to do. We make no apology for that.

I challenge you to produce any discrepancy found in the NWT that is not accurate according to the original Greek texts. There was no trinity when the scriptures were written, but mistranslation can alter the meaning of scripture and we end up believing the lies as truth. We exposed the lies and corrected them. You can believe it.....or not.

I am really glad that you said that what you have posted is your "opinion" only, for what you have posted is a heteros euangellion, your gospel is diametrically opposed to God's gospel

 

[Titus]

Jehovahs witness must be taught that Jesus is God.

1Samuel 2:2
There is none holy as the Lord:
For there is none beside thee:
Neither is there any rock like our God.

God is referred to figuratively in the OT as Rock.

Is Jesus a man or God?

1Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
And that Rock was Christ.

Rock is God in the Old testament.
That Rock(God) is revealed in the new testament as Jesus!

Therefore the answer is Yes! The Bible affirms Jesus as God.

When Jesus taught His commission to be proclaimed to the whole world by His disciples.
Jesus said to teach them what?

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus taught that all should be baptized by Gods authority.
That God Jesus refers to is the God-head.

The next verse, Jesus commands them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever He has commanded.
Therefore, since Jesus taught the God-head to be proclaimed to all those who hear the gospel of Christ.
It must be inferred that God requires folks who are to be taught the gospel know who God is!
Who is God?
He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
For those who need to be saved, they need to know according to Jesus who God is.
Just as we would not allow someone to believe God is the Muslim god Allah.
We must also not allow folks who desire to be saved believe God is Jesus(oneness doctrine)
Or Jesus is not God but the Father is. The lost must know who God is.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am really glad that you said that what you have posted is your "opinion" only, for what you have posted is a heteros euangellion, your gospel is diametrically opposed to God's gospel

I beg to differ, as I believe that Christendom’s defection was so early in “Church” history that no one questions the false teachings that infiltrated their doctrines and have been accepted as gospel truth for centuries. What was true of Judaism became true of “Christianity”. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Through careful study and research, I have seen that it is Christendom’s doctrines that are diametrically opposed to God’s gospel. But it’s not up to me to convince anyone of that...only God by his spirit, can open eyes and hearts to the truth. I am confident about that....what about you?

 

[EloyCraft]

Good question!

I'm not a calvinist. Does that answer your question?
What do you think?

Yes. I think.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jehovahs witness must be taught that Jesus is God.

LOL....been there, done that. I was raised with Christendom’s teachings and found them to be spiritually empty and their trinity, incomprehensible. I also found that many who claim to be Christians are merely label wearers who can ignore all of Christ’s teachings if it suits them.....and yet still claim to be “Christians”. Jesus spoke about them and how it will turn out for them at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)

I am happy to allow our appointed judge to do his job. It’s my job to just tell the truth and as Jesus and his disciples experienced, the mainstream were not going to be happy about hearing it. Jesus told us what to expect in John 15:18-21.

Jesus never once said he was God. Please show us where he said it directly without squeezing it into ambiguous verses by inference.

 

[Johann]

I apologize for the length of this, but there is a lot to address, so I'll break it up....


I couldn’t agree more. I myself am a stickler for scripture but I also am a stickler for original word study. The way original language speakers understood words according to their religion is more important than how later corrupted churches interpreted them. It requires more than a cursory reading of "words". To read without understanding is futile.


That is not true either. We can use any translation we like. I use a range of translations here because I understand that people like yourself have been persuaded to believe that the NWT is not accurate. I will debate that with you any time if you would like to give me examples other than John 10:33, which I have already detailed, and which you have completely misunderstood.


Finding translation errors was the reason.
Let me give you one glaring example....
The KJV is a translation that many revere as authentic, but in today’s world is a dinosaur with its archaic English and odd phrasing, but the KJV was translated by trinitarians and its bias is obvious when you study it.

John 1:1 (a trinitarian’s favorite) is translated the same in most English Bibles because all believed in the indoctrinated trinity, and so the errors were not obvious. The absence of the definite article didn’t seem to matter, but in Greek, it was vital to identify the true God from the “theos” who was his son and which identified others as authorized by him, but who are not Jehovah.
If the Jews had retained the divine name (as their scripture had instructed) instead of eliminating it from their speech, we would not be having this conversation.

John 1:1 would have read....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah, and the Word was divine.”

Verse 14 would have been understood to mean the opposite of how it is read today....
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.”.....it has a completely different meaning.

“The Word” was not “ho theos” so not “THE God” but “theos” a divine one who was “with the God” “in the beginning”.....he was "an only begotten son". In order to be "begotten" one needs a 'begetter' who existed before him. Never do a father and son come into existence at the same time. It is God and his son who identify their relationship to humans. If it is not the same as we understand, then why identify themselves that way?

And since Jehovah had no “beginning” this too is important, because the Word did.
“These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God” (Revelation 3:14) Since the Revelation was given in a chain.....from God to Jesus to the angel, and then to John, (Revelation 1:1) this is God and his son both saying that Jesus is the “beginning of God’s creation”.

What else do we see when we read on? Verse 18 says in the KJV....
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” I guess you would not see a problem....most people don’t. But there is no “Son” in that verse. If you look it up in other translations out will find similar wording inferring that the Son is God, but it says more correctly....”
"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)

Now look at the way it was translated in the revised NASB 2020....
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB 2020)
Which is more correct when compared with the Greek text? They had it right the first time....”monogenes theos” (only begotten god) was in the original text. There is no "God the only Son".

The opening words to John 1:18 declare that "No one has seen God at any time"......how many people saw Jesus Christ?

So please don’t tell me that going back to original word meanings to dispel an ancient myth adopted by a corrupted church hundreds of years after Jesus ‘ death, is not the correct thing to do. We make no apology for that.

I challenge you to produce any discrepancy found in the NWT that is not accurate according to the original Greek texts. There was no trinity when the scriptures were written, but mistranslation can alter the meaning of scripture and we end up believing the lies as truth. We exposed the lies and corrected them. You can believe it.....or not.

I beg to differ, as I believe that Christendom’s defection was so early in “Church” history that no one questions the false teachings that infiltrated their doctrines and have been accepted as gospel truth for centuries. What was true of Judaism became true of “Christianity”. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Through careful study and research, I have seen that it is Christendom’s doctrines that are diametrically opposed to God’s gospel. But it’s not up to me to convince anyone of that...only God by his spirit, can open eyes and hearts to the truth. I am confident about that....what about you?

How did you go about through "careful study and research?"
What secondary resources did you examine Jane?

 

[Titus]

LOL....been there, done that. I was raised with Christendom’s teachings and found them to be spiritually empty and their trinity, incomprehensible. I also found that many who claim to be Christians are merely label wearers who can ignore all of Christ’s teachings if it suits them.....and yet still claim to be “Christians”. Jesus spoke about them and how it will turn out for them at the judgment. (Matthew 7:21-23)

I am happy to allow our appointed judge to do his job. It’s my job to just tell the truth and as Jesus and his disciples experienced, the mainstream were not going to be happy about hearing it. Jesus told us what to expect in John 15:18-21.

Jesus never once said he was God. Please show us where he said it directly without squeezing it into ambiguous verses by inference.

You have been told over and over,
John 8:58.

Revelation 1:8
I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,....
who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.