Can you be saved if you don't believe in the diety of Christ?

[Aunty Jane]

Why do Jehovahs witness not believe the word of God?

We do.....and that is why we saw the need to produce our own translation based on the original language texts and the true meaning of original language words. The "weeds" of Jesus parable were getting away with blasphemy! In this "time of the end" the truth needed to be told.

They created their own Bible because they do not believe what Gods word teaches, that His word will never perish, preserved forever.

We did no such thing. All we did was wipe the slate clean of all of Christendom’s added doctrines and started from scratch using Westcott and Hort’s Greek text....a work of devoted and careful study by these two scholars over 28 years.

Here are the Bibles I used to answer John 10:33 as God not as Jehovahs witness say, a god:

Yes, I use those translations regularly myself if you check my posts here on various topics. I also use the Hebrew Tanakh for a clearer understanding of the Hebrew text and Strongs Concordance for the meaning of original language words.....and I always find that the NWT is the most accurate.

Second reason you should be skeptical about the Jehovahs Witness Bible.
Why do all these translations say God in John 10:33?
Not one of them teach a god as your Jehovah Witness Bible does!

You have completely misunderstood what I wrote. Please read my reply on this again. “Theos” is not used only for Jehovah...it is used by God himself to identify human judges as Jesus said.....you are losing sight of the forest by focusing on a single branch of one tree. The Jews had no trinity and their scripture did not contain it....Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture......I believe that you underestimate the Jew's desire to do away with a painful thorn in their side....(Matthew 27:25) They were unscrupulous liars.

You must believe that all these Bibles are error and only your translation is truth.
What year did the Jehovah Witness first publish their Bible?
Answer: The old testament was published in five volumes its first publication was in, 1953 to 1960.
The completed N.W.T. was released in 1961!
Wow, that's strange God did not keep His word preserved until the Witnesses in 1960's released their "updated" version. The watch tower continues to revise their NWT Bible. Many revisions have already been made.

All Bibles are revised...even the KJV. That is often a good thing if it corrects former mistranslations, but as demonstrated above, it can also be forced to support a doctrine that did not exist in the beginning, in order to appease the indoctrinated masses.

Before the NWT the JW used the King James Version.

I myself used the KJV in my Bible study. When I undertook a serious study of the Bible, I preferred the Bible that I have owned now for over 60 years. But even though it has sentimental value (given to me as a child from my grandmother) I am not blind to its glaring errors, which only became evident when my study went deeper than a superficial reading.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your argument is that the Jews referred to Jesus as a god. Not Jehovah.
Then prove the Jews were polytheist's?
You give me book, chapter and verse teaching Jews believed in more than one God and you will have a good argument. Until then your argument is absurd!

No, again, you have misread my reply. The Jews wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus to give them an excuse to execute him. Since Jesus had never once claimed to be God, (he himself had only ever said “I am the Son of God”) how could the Jews have accused him of something no one had ever heard him say?

If they wanted to kill him because he claimed to be “God’s son”, they would have had a legal right to put him to death if he had claimed to be ‘God incarnate’, because he would have broken the First Commandment. Jesus had to be put to death as an innocent man....if he had claimed to be God, they would have had evidence to convict him legally of breaking God’s law, which he never did. Their Messiah had to be 100% mortal human.

Since an immortal God cannot die, Jesus could not have been God.

Who cares if modern day Christendom believes in the trinity.

We should if it is a fabrication of a corrupted church. That is what Jesus and his apostles foretold....that Christianity would become apostate...history shows that it did.
If we are found at the judgment worshipping the wrong god, then Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:21-23 are to be taken seriously.

The subjects being discussed are jews.

You give me evidence the Jews believed in multiple gods, and then you will have a convincing argument.

I never said that. I have given you evidence that calling someone “theos” is not necessarily calling them “Jehovah”. The Jews of Jesus’ day were Greek speakers as it was the common language of the day. They had stopped using God’s name, but Jesus came to restore it. (Matthew 6:9; John 11:6, 11, 26)

Those Jews in John 10:33 were accusing Jesus of claiming to be the God! Not a god.
Why would they? They are not polytheist's! Prove they are. I will be waiting for your answer.

Since the definite article is not used, we believe that they were not accusing him of claiming to be God, but rather some kind of deity who was able to perform miracles. Whatever they said it was designed to make Jesus out to be a criminal deserving of death....that is the point.

Also JW's believe the Angel's are gods, correct?
This proves the Jehovah Witnesses are the real polytheist's not Trinitarian's.

The angels were called "'ĕlōhîm" compared to humans in Psalm 8:5-6 which means...

1. "rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods" (Strongs)

Psalm 8:5-6 in other translations reads....
"Yet You have made him a little lower than [a]God, ['ĕlōhîm]
And You crown him with glory and majesty!"

1. Footnote: [a]Psalm 8:5 LXX angels

Look up Psalm 8:5 in all the English translations and see how they are rendered.....

Before you jump to conclusions it pays to have all the facts.....you hardly have any.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are we going to have to take a theology test at the Pearly Gates?

Since there are no 'pearly gates', we had better be serving the interests of the one true God and his appointed King, otherwise there will be no second chances. This is where we get 'tested' to make our choices as to which God we will serve....one is false and one is true, but the pretender is a master of deception.....what if everything you have been taught to believe by the counterfeit "Christianity" sown by the devil, is all lies, dressed up to look like the real thing? How can we tell? Easy...the true "wheat" are living their Christianity....it isn't a label, its a lifestyle.

The "weeds" are divided and bickering about their beliefs whilst still all claiming to be Christ's followers....one big happy family. ...not! (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Talk is cheap.....what kind of people (fruits) are produce by those 'trees'? We have to obey the Christ in all things.....so each doctrine or belief has to have its roots firmly in God's word.

Can Christendom say that all their beliefs are sourced from the Bible? I have a long list of the ways they excuse themselves from obeying their supposed King. And an equally long list of the many doctrines that came to be adopted in the later centuries after Christ's death.

We have to be 'the real thing' or we will not pass muster. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Lambano]

Since there are no 'pearly gates'...

Sure there are!

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. (Revelations 21:21)

 

[friend of]

The opening words to John 1:18 declare that "No one has seen God at any time"......how many people saw Jesus Christ?

This was before Christ's incarnation though.
John 14:9

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sure there are!

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. (Revelations 21:21)

I was referring to the notion of people at the pearly gates waiting for St Peter to let them in....

Where did this idea originate? Not from the Bible....there are twelve gates and each is named after one of the twelve apostles.

 

[MatthewG]

I was referring to the notion of people at the pearly gates waiting for St Peter to let them in....

Where did this idea originate? Not from the Bible....there are twelve gates and each is named after one of the twelve apostles.

Aunty Jane,

It’s because we don’t know what heaven will be like. You only have the scripture really to see and use if anything. All I know is that no eye has seen nor ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love him. I personally believe heaven will be a spiritual place and not like earth. Though I could be wrong, I rather live in heaven with God for is far better to be with the Lord in my opinion. I also see people who are faithless outside the kingdom of heaven. We may get to go help to bring them to Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This was before Christ's incarnation though.
John 14:9

Let's take it in context.....and see that John 1:14 is not about Christ before the incarnation....."the Word who became flesh" was not "ho theos" (Jehovah).

John 1:6-18....the witness of John the Baptist....
"There came a man who was sent as a representative of God; his name was John. 7 This man came as a witness, in order to bear witness about the light, so that people of all sorts might believe through him. 8 He was not that light, but he was meant to bear witness about that light.

9 The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own home, but his own people did not accept him. 12 However, to all who did receive him, he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name. 13 And they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.


14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he cried out: “This was the one of whom I said, ‘The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, for he existed before me.’”) 16 For we all received from his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

Jesus' words to Phillip in John 14:9 were an exasperated declaration to his Apostle who should have known who the Father was by that time.
The words that follow V 9 state...
"Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me; otherwise, believe because of the works themselves. 12 Most truly I say to you, whoever exercises faith in me will also do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father."

We also have Paul's words to show us what he meant...
Colossians 1:15-17...
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist".

If Jesus is the "image" of his "invisible God", then how is that even possible except that he had demonstrated his Father's qualities and personality in himself and in his words and actions.

No member of the first century Christian congregation would ever have believed that Jesus was God....especially not the Jewish members. It would have been blasphemous.

 

[friend of]

No member of the first century Christian congregation would ever have believed that Jesus was God....especially not the Jewish members. It would have been blasphemous

And yet that's exactly what Jesus said in John 8:58.

Also John 20:28 has Thomas calling Jesus "My Lord and my God". Jesus surely would have rebuked Thomas for saying that if it weren't true.

 

[friend of]

17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist"

That sounds like a perfect description of God.

 

[friend of]

especially not the Jewish members. It would have been blasphemous

I don't understand how that's a rebuttal. By and large the Jews rejected Him as the messiah altogether.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane,

It’s because we don’t know what heaven will be like. You only have the scripture really to see and use if anything. All I know is that no eye has seen nor ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love him. I personally believe heaven will be a spiritual place and not like earth. Though I could be wrong, I rather live in heaven with God for is far better to be with the Lord in my opinion. I also see people who are faithless outside the kingdom of heaven. We may get to go help to bring them to Christ.

Most people believe that they will go to heaven when they die....but the Bible does not say this. It is dependent on the doctrine of the immortal soul which finds its origins in pagan Greek ideas. There is no Bible teaching of an immortal soul that goes to heaven...in fact it is impossible for any soul to enter heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:50) The original meaning of the word "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called souls....and they are said to return to the dust...they do not go anywhere. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

What did God tell Adam? (Genesis 3:19)
Adam was said to "become" a soul when God started him breathing (Genesis 2:7)....when breathing stops, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

So the whole 'going to heaven' thing is not what God promised the majority of humans.....God put us here on the earth because it was designed to be our permanent home. If the first humans had not sinned, Christ would never have needed to come to redeem them, and no one would ever have gone to heaven. But the rebellion made the need for God's Kingdom to re-establish God's rule over the human race.

Satan and his rebels took away from the human family what God had prepared for them....everlasting life in paradise on earth....Jesus came to give us back what they stole from us. God would choose some from among mankind to assist Jesus in the administration of his Kingship, but by and large, the majority of those who will be "saved" will live forever on the earth, foreshadowed by Revelation 21:2-4....

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

God's purpose for the human race has never changed.....he designed them for life in paradise on this beautifully prepared earth forever, and that is what he will bring back. (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[Aunty Jane]

That sounds like a perfect description of God.

It is a perfect description of the one who came as God's representative. Do you know what his title "Logos" means?
He was known as "the Word" because he was God's spokesman, and had been from the beginning...the one who spoke for God.

In his appearances in the past he was probably the angel who spoke at the burning bush to Moses. (Acts 7:35)
He was probably the voice with the Shekinah light in the Temple.
He was also probably the angel who visited Abraham with two others to make known Jehovah's will in connection with Abraham's seed. We don't really know, but on each occasion he spoke for God.

Hebrews 7:26 says...
"For it is fitting for us to have such a high priest who is loyal, innocent, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and exalted above the heavens".
If Jesus is a "high priest" then he is in the service of God.....therefore he cannot BE God.
Acts 4:27...
"For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed".
If Jesus is God's holy servant, how does God serve himself...or anoint himself?

I don't understand how that's a rebuttal. By and large the Jews rejected Him as the messiah altogether.

The Jews were very much alienated from God by the time that Jesus came to be baptized. He constantly castigated the Pharisees, but appealed to "the lost sheep" (or those despised by the religious leaders.) But Jesus taught the "lost sheep" the truth about his Father and they knew that he was not claiming to be God because to them it would have been blasphemy for a human to claim to be God.

The rejection of Jesus as Messiah came from the Pharisees, not the people. It had been so all through their history, that when the leadership was good they prospered, but when the leadership was bad they were an abomination. Jesus condemned the Pharisees of his day to "gehenna", but the Jews who followed God's son were taught the truth leading to their salvation, whereas those who succumbed to the majority view promoted by the religious leaders, were condemned out of their own mouths...
when Pilate tried to free Jesus as an innocent man...."At that all the people said in answer: “Let his blood come upon us and upon our children.” (Matthew 27:25) so, they cursed themselves and their children with his blood.

That is why the Jewish people today have no connection to God....they have never acknowledged that Jesus was their Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39) And after almost 2000 years they still refuse to acknowledge him.

 

[EloyCraft]

Heaven must reveal the Incarnation. An earthly source can't be believed.
That is why it was revealed to Joseph in a dream.

 

[farouk]

Are we going to have to take a theology test at the Pearly Gates?

Another way of stating it is: Whom are you trusting as Saviour?

 

[Aunty Jane]

And yet that's exactly what Jesus said in John 8:58.

If I hear John 8:58 one more time I am going to scream!

"I AM" is not the meaning of God's name given in Exodus 3:13-15.
This is how the Jewish Tanakh renders that passage....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

The "LORD God is "יְהֹוָ֞ה" (YHWH) which was to be his name forever.
Rather than being a declaration of his existence, which, as Abraham's descendants, the Jews already knew even before their time spent in Egypt, God's name took on another significance...it was a declaration of his intentions concerning his nation and why he had chosen them. He would "BE" or "BECOME" whatever he needed to be in order to fulfill his purpose to bring his Messiah into the world.

John 8:58 is Jesus answering a question about his age, stating that he existed before Abraham was even born. Jesus said "I am" many times without it ever being interpreted as admitting that he was Almighty God. Its not even good grammar....nor does it make sense.
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (NASB) Notice that there are no capitals to indicate that "I am" means anything other than what Jesus was responding to...."Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”....and Jesus answered..."before Abraham was born, I have been". He was saying that he existed before Abraham...nothing more.

Also John 20:28 has Thomas calling Jesus "My Lord and my God". Jesus surely would have rebuked Thomas for saying that if it weren't true.

I wonder if you have you been listening at all? Calling Jesus his "Lord" (master) and his "theos" (one who was god-like or had divine authority) was not calling him 'Jehovah' because they knew full well that Jesus was not God. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

They had seen Jesus pray to his Father. Does one part of God pray to his equal self?
You guys cling to these ambiguous verses with absolutely no understanding of the context or how the persons saying the words understood what they said. *sigh*

 

[MatthewG]

Aunty Jane, I love you. I believe God had gave the soul(the spirit of man (soul mind/will/emotion) (Ecclesiastes 12:7). What God gave it returns back to him. I do not believe that “non-immortal soul” (doctrine. Everyone will be going to the heavenly realm. Two destinations: outside the kingdom, or inside the kingdom. (Revelation 22).

I don’t believe what Jehovah witness believe. Do love you though thank for the response.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane, I love you. I believe God had gave the soul. What God gave it returns back to him. I do not believe that “non-immortal soul” doctrine. Everyone will be going to the heavenly realm. Two destinations: outside the kingdom, or inside the kingdom. (Revelation 22).

I don’t believe what Jehovah witness believe. Do love you though thank for the response.

I once believed in the immortal soul until I studied what the Jews believed, (and hence what Jesus taught) and what the early Christians believed about death and heaven....but Bible study sorted all that out for me when I realized the there is no immortal part of humans that departs from the body at death. Nowhere in the Bible is the "soul" described as a disembodied spirit. In fact the words "immortal soul" do not appear in the Bible at all.

The Bible teaches resurrection.....that is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it. Jesus will awaken the dead just like he did Lazarus....(John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14) Don't close your mind Matthew....the heart will close along with it.

 

[MatthewG]

Aunty Jane,

Many would say I’m closed minded for the most part of being very stern on my foundation of Christ and trusting him in what he has said. He himself has stated those who did good, will be resurrected and those who did practiced evil will also be resurrected.

You say you once believed that you believed in immortal soul, then you changed your mind. It was the same thing when I use to believe Jesus was going to return soon… haha I remember talking to my Jw friend about it. Now I believe he done came.

Whatever you wanna believe is up to you, however to suggest the end of life is simply here and that is it and there is not anything more doesn’t make sense.

The great thing for us to do is continue to have love for God and have love for others by praying for them, and helping if needed.

We will have just to just dismiss this conversation if nothing avails from it.

In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[quietthinker]

Can you be saved if you don't believe in the trinity or the diety of Christ?

A head full of information on its own even if it is correct is useless.
The devils know more facts than any of us but the relationship they have with Jesus is antagonistic.....a lot of good that'll do them!

The only thing that matters is knowing Jesus. That'll be the litmus test. To one crowd who boasted in their association with Jesus, Jesus says, 'I never knew you'....and in spite of their objections he qualifies them as evil doers......interesting huh?

A head full of right theology with no heart is the highway of self deception.