Can you have God as your Father, without the Church as your mother?

[Selene]

You are correct that Christ and His Church is one as liken to marriage. You are also correct that Christ and the New Jerusalem are one as liken to marriage. The Church and the Heavenly Jerusalem are the same. Christ does not have two brides. He only has one bride. And St. Paul calls the "Heavenly Jerusalem" a mother because as a Church, we are liken as a mother who bring others to God to be His children and disciples.

Matthew 12:48-49 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Even Christ calls those who follow Him not only His brothers and sisters, but even His mother. Those who follow Him are His Church.

The temple normally resides in the city of God but the new Jerusalem will have no temple because God the Father and God the Son will be it's temple. There will no-longer be a need for a temple because the children of God will already be residing in the holy city forever...

Revelation 21
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are savedshall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Shalom!!!

The temple is our bodies....the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in us. The temple is not a stone building.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

 

[Angelina]

Selene,
The Church and the heavenly Jerusalem are not the same...The Church is the temple of God which becomes defunct once the redeemed ones enter the holy city. ^_^

Revelation 21
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done!I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 22
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Selene]

Selene,
The Church and the heavenly Jerusalem are not the same...The Church is the temple of God which becomes defunct once the redeemed ones enter the holy city. ^_^

Where in the Bible did it say that the Church becomes defunct?? How can Christians become defunct in God's kingdom when we're supposed to have eternal life in Heaven?? The Church and the Heavenly Jerusalem are the same. Christ did not marry two brides. He only has one bride.

 

[Angelina]

Where in the Bible did it say that the Church becomes defunct?? How can Christians become defunct in God's kingdom

I love the way you tend to side track the main issues selene

Revelation 21
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Revelation 22
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Blessings!!!

 

[Selene]

I love the way you tend to side track the main issues selene

Revelation 21
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Revelation 22
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Blessings!!!

I think you need to read the beginning chapter of Revelations 22.

Revelations 22:1-3 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (The old earth and heaven is gone, and God created a new earth and heaven. So, where were the Christians - His Church? Did they die along with the old earth and heaven? No. They did not pass away with the old earth and old Heaven because God promised us eternal life. So where were they? The Church is the Body of Christ. They had always been with Him.).

Then I, John, [fn] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (The New Jerusalem is the Church. It is the Christians in their glorified bodies. The Bible says that the New Jerusalem came out from God. God was living in us. After the creation of the new earth and heaven, God brought us forth from Himself because we were His Body. The Christians (Church) did not die because we are His Body, who is one with Him. The New Jerusalem came down out of Heaven from God because we are one with God. We are the Body of Christ...His Church. God made His dwelling place in our bodies so we could be one with Him.)

And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God. (God now made his home with men - the New Jerusalem. He made His home with us in the new heavens and new earth.)

 

[Angelina]

Revelations 22:1-3 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (The old earth and heaven is gone, and God created a new earth and heaven. So, where were the Christians - His Church? Did they die along with the old earth and heaven? No. They did not pass away with the old earth and old Heaven because God promised us eternal life. So where were they? The Church is the Body of Christ. They had always been with Him.).

As I have already explained selene, the children of God at this point in time, now have the right to enter the city of God and those who had already been purchased from the earth are already in the city of God, the new Jerusalem ergo - the Bride of Christ.

Revelation 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Then I, John,
[fn] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (The New Jerusalem is the Church. It is the Christians in their glorified bodies. The Bible says that the New Jerusalem came out from God. God was living in us. After the creation of the new earth and heaven, God brought us forth from Himself because we were His Body. The Christians (Church) did not die because we are His Body, who is one with Him. The New Jerusalem came down out of Heaven from God because we are one with God. We are the Body of Christ...His Church. God made His dwelling place in our bodies so we could be one with Him.)

No...the city of God is not the Church. The Church is a body of believers. These believers are now able to enter into the city because they have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb. We are citizens of that city along with all Jewish believers...citizens and children of the promise.

And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them [and be] their God.
(God now made his home with men - the New Jerusalem. He made His home with us in the new heavens and new earth.)

You asked where the people of God are - "So, where were the Christians" here they are Revelation 21:3...if the church was the city of God then God would not need to make his home with men or call them his people because they would already be his people [the Church] John clearly differentiates God's tabernacle from his people ... Think carefully on this selene...

Those already in the city when it comes down have left their earthly bodies. There are also those who are still on earth when the New Jerusalem comes down. Those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life are able to come and go freely.
-------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 6
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

We are at present...individual temples of the living God but only temporarily because we are in our flesh bodies. We are a type if you will... Our mortal is awaiting immortality 1 Corinthians 15:52-54. Since flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven. We are also collectively building ourselves up together to be a holy Temple of the Lord as one body of believers right now.

Ephesians 2
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This is our present state...as a corporate body of believers...this is not our future state.

Shalom!!!

 

[Niki]

Are you certain you read my post? St. Paul was speaking to the Galatian converts in Galatia. He wasn't comparing cities on earth and cities in Heaven. The New Jerusalem is us....the Church. The mystical body of Christ includes all Christians on earth and in Heaven. The Body of Christ does not include ONLY those Christians on earth. When a Christian dies, they don't stop being part of the body of Christ.

Hi Selene

I am not responding to your post in particular. I am responding to the notion of Jerusalem being anything other than what scripture identifies it as.

I agree with Angelina, if that helps you to understand my take on things in this thread.

Thanks

 

[Selene]

Angelina and Niki, the New Jerusalem is the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ, which is why St. Paul used husbands and wives as an analogy to describe Christ and His Church. Catholics are not the only ones who believe this. There are many Protestants who also believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Below are weblinks of Protestant commentaries showing that the New Jerusalem is the Church. I provided the weblinks, and the blue are all quotes from the weblinks. The first one is a commentary taken from the King James Bible.


1. Revelation 19:7
Most believe that this person in question, "His wife," is the church, the Bride of Christ. Notice, however, what the verse says: "[She] has made herself ready." God does not lead us in wrong directions, so whhat this description suggests is true. The woman - the Bride, the church - has had to do things. She had to perform certain actions to get herself into position to be ready to marry Christ. It was not merely a matter of repenting, getting baptized, and receivingGod's Spirit. She had to do something to be prepared to be in the Kingdom and marry her Savior.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/bible.show/sVerseID/31025/eVerseID/31027


2.. New Jerusalem - See the notes on Galatians 4:24-27 (note). This doubtless means the Christian Church in a state of great prosperity and purity; but some think eternal blessedness is intended.

http://clarke.biblecommenter.com/revelation/21.htm


3. II. In this new world the apostle saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, not locally, but as to its original: this new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, beautified with all perfection of wisdom and holiness, meet for the full fruition of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory.

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/Matthew_Henry/revelation/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/Matthew_Henry/revelation/chapter_21.html


4. Is the New Jerusalem the Church or Israel?

A kind correspondent has sent us a paper which seeks to prove that the holy city, new Jerusalem, is Israel; and the writer of the paper endeavours to substantiate his position by a sevenfold argument. But it is a most remarkable thing that all the passages which point to another conclusion are omitted. We propose, therefore, in a general way, to call attention to these, in the hope that our correspondent, as well as any others who may have been unsettled, may be re-established in the conviction that the subject of the glorious vision of Revelation 21 is, after all, the church, though the church (we speak of the vision commencing with verse 10) in relation to the earth during the millennium.

http://www.stempublishing.com/magazines/cf/1897/Is-the-New-Jerusalem-the-Church-or-Israel.html


5. And I John saw the holy city,.... The same with the beloved city in Revelation 20:9 the church of God: sometimes the church militant is called a city, of which the saints are now fellow citizens, governed by wholesome laws, and enjoying many privileges; but here the general assembly and church of the firstborn, or all the elect of God, are intended, the whole body and society of them, being as a city, compact together; called holy, not only because set apart to holiness by God the Father, and their sins expiated by the blood of Christ, or because he is made sanctification to them, or because internally sanctified by the Spirit of God, which now is but in part; but because they will be perfectly holy in themselves, without the being of sin in them, or any spot of it on them: and John, for the more strong ascertaining the truth of this vision, expresses his name, who saw it, to whom God sent his angel, and signified to him by these Apocalyptic visions what should be hereafter; though the name is left out in the Alexandrian copy, and in the Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions:

http://gill.biblecommenter.com/revelation/21.htm

6. Verse 2. - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem. "John" must be omitted, according to all the best manuscripts. "The holy city" is the Church of God (see on Revelation 11:2), now glorified and prepared for perfect communion with her Redeemer (cf. the promise inRevelation 3:12, which is now fulfilled; cf. also Galatians 4:26; Hebrews 11:10, 16). Contrast this figure of the holy city with that of Babylon (see on Revelation 18.). Coming down from God out of heaven. Connect "out of heaven" with "coming down." The same words occur in Revelation 3:12 (which see). Prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Here is the contrast to the "harlot" (see on Revelation 17:1). Though many of those forming the bride are rewarded according to their works (see Revelation 20:13), yet their own works are insufficient to fit them for their future life; they are prepared by God. This appearance is anticipated in Revelation 19:7 (which see).

http://pulpit.biblecommenter.com/revelation/21.htm

 

[Angelina]

Angelina, the New Jerusalem is the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ, which is why St. Paul used husbands and wives as an analogy to describe Christ and His Church.

The analogy was used so that we can understand the relationship between a husband and wife and Christ and the Church - The mystery being that they are one...joined together as one - like the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.

Catholics are not the only ones who believe this. There are many Protestants who also believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Below are weblinks of Protestant commentaries showing that the New Jerusalem is the Church. I provided the weblinks, and the blue are all quotes from the weblinks. The first one is a commentary taken from the King James Bible. So, even the commentary in the King James Bible believes that the Bride of Christ spoken about in Revelations is the Church.

selene it is not the truth but you must believe what you will...until the Lord reveals otherwise One day we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free...

Shalom!!!

 

[Selene]

The analogy was used so that we can understand the relationship between a husband and wife and Christ and the Church - The mystery being that they are one...joined together as one - like the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.



Catholics are not the only ones who believe this. There are many Protestants who also believe that the New Jerusalem is the Church. Below are weblinks of Protestant commentaries showing that the New Jerusalem is the Church. I provided the weblinks, and the blue are all quotes from the weblinks. The first one is a commentary taken from the King James Bible. So, even the commentary in the King James Bible believes that the Bride of Christ spoken about in Revelations is the Church.

selene it is not the truth but you must believe what you will until the Lord reveals otherwise One day we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free...

Shalom!!!

Shalom, Sister Angelina. Yes, the truth will be revealed to all one day.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Thank you Selene and Angelina for maintaing the bond of peace. It's quite refreshing and encouraging to me. The process of maturation at work.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

That was unkind. :unsure:

Do I have to be a catholic ?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Um....I looked it up oline because, and don't take this personally (although that might be hard), but some of the responses are as clear as mud. And aspen, you have beaten a path
around the bush so much I am dizzy...LOL!...I think you appear to be uncomfortable with what some appear to be saying? Whack me if I am wrong


So, is the above what is being said (I am not the I of the quote) and the author states further:

Paul tells us that he is using a figure of speech that is called an allegory. An allegory is a story that may use real or imagined things to represent something else for the purpose of illustrating and teaching a lesson.
To use the expression "mother of us all" to teach the "mother church" as some do, one must totally ignore the allegorical use of this by Paul. Moreover, in this allegory, Paul contrasts the Jerusalem on earth which, at the time of this writing, was in bondage to the Roman Empire in contrast with the Jewish idea of the heavenly Jerusalem, "Jerusalem which is above,"the city for which Abraham and other people of faith were looking. Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

You can be so focused on the details as to miss the bigger picture. "Mother of us all" speaks of a centralization of authority and no matter how its interpreted, this particular governing principle can't be ignored. Moreover, you quote from Hebrews, but miss this very important link in the next chapter:

" But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven."

There it is, the heavenly Jerusalem which is also the church of the firstborn. They are the same.

 

[Niki]

You can be so focused on the details as to miss the bigger picture. "Mother of us all" speaks of a centralization of authority and no matter how its interpreted, this particular governing principle can't be ignored. Moreover, you quote from Hebrews, but miss this very important link in the next chapter:

" But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven."

There it is, the heavenly Jerusalem which is also the church of the firstborn. They are the same.

Or, you can be so focused on the teaching of a certain church, that you do not ever understand that the teaching is not in scripture.

I quoted from an online article...and it stands...Paul was using an allegorical explanation to make a point. We are allowed to actually read the Bible ourselves
and experience forgiveness directly through communion in prayer with God for the remission of our sins. We don't confess to a man who is just as sinful as we are.


Respectfully, repeating something over and over and over does not make it true. Scripture is true...not man made extra biblical doctrines

I understand that believing all of things that are not in the Bible are necessary if one wants to follow the Catholic religion, but it is not necessary for salvation

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Or, you can be so focused on the teaching of a certain church, that you do not ever understand that the teaching is not in scripture.

I quoted from an online article...and it stands...Paul was using an allegorical explanation to make a point. We are allowed to actually read the Bible ourselves
and experience forgiveness directly through communion in prayer with God for the remission of our sins. We don't confess to a man who is just as sinful as we are.


Respectfully, repeating something over and over and over does not make it true. Scripture is true...not man made extra biblical doctrines

I understand that believing all of things that are not in the Bible are necessary if one wants to follow the Catholic religion, but it is not necessary for salvation

I just gave you scripture. An omission of any riposte indicates there is none forthcoming.

 

[Niki]

LOL! So you are my judge now? wondering who died and gave you that job.......just refer to my prior posts if you have difficulty understanding

I have noticed that certain individuals seem to think that they have the authority to excommunicate others from what they believe is the truth

Don't you know? Have you not heard? Only GOD Himself can keep me out of heaven. He states that no one can remove me from Him...

nothing! not demons, not big swelling words and certainly not the pope who is anything BUT infallible.

By the way? YOU never 'gave' me scripture. The Holy Spirt directed the words of scripture through those chosen by God and that means
all 66 books and not just the parts that you would like to personally serve up in order to prove an incorrect doctrine that is not in the Bible

 

[day]

Or, you can be so focused on the teaching of a certain church, that you do not ever understand that the teaching is not in scripture.

I quoted from an online article...and it stands...Paul was using an allegorical explanation to make a point. We are allowed to actually read the Bible ourselves
and experience forgiveness directly through communion in prayer with God for the remission of our sins. We don't confess to a man who is just as sinful as we are.


Respectfully, repeating something over and over and over does not make it true. Scripture is true...not man made extra biblical doctrines

I understand that believing all of things that are not in the Bible are necessary if one wants to follow the Catholic religion, but it is not necessary for salvation

I agree.

The problem with the idea of the church as mother is that a child is seperate from the mother, not a part of the mother. Yet the Apostles taught that we were stones forming the temple, members of the body of Christ, joined as one flesh with Christ. This is a union much closer than what the Catholic Church teaches.

God did not intend for ancient Israel to have a human government with a king, but he would rule them directly with "watchers" (prophets) to warn the people when they were straying. Instead the people insisted on being like those around them and demanded a king. God told Samual that the people had not rejected him (a watcher) but God's rulership.

Jesus intended the same for the Church. He told them to call no one "Father" or "Rabbi", examples of human authority. Instead he would govern them directly by the Holy Spirit with "watchers" (bishops) to warn them when they strayed form the faith handed down by the Apostles (true doctrine). Over time however, the watchers left their posts to become rulers and a human hierarchy developed which seperated the people from direct rulership by the Holy Spirit. Without watchers the Catholic Church has wandered into all kinds of errors, including believing its structure to be holy, divine and infallable, separate from the sinful members. A holy mother, guiding sinful children.

 

[Selene]

I agree.

The problem with the idea of the church as mother is that a child is seperate from the mother, not a part of the mother. Yet the Apostles taught that we were stones forming the temple, members of the body of Christ, joined as one flesh with Christ. This is a union much closer than what the Catholic Church teaches.

This is incorrect. A child was once a part of the mother when the child was in the womb of the mother. Furthermore, Catholics also teach that Christians are the Body of Christ. It is also in scripture that St. Paul called the Heavenly Jerusalem "mother." A mother gives birth to children. The Church does bear fruits. One of the fruits we bear is producing more Christians through evangelization. So, in that sense, the Church is a mother.

Jesus intended the same for the Church. He told them to call no one "Father" or "Rabbi", examples of human authority. Instead he would govern them directly by the Holy Spirit with "watchers" (bishops) to warn them when they strayed form the faith handed down by the Apostles (true doctrine). Over time however, the watchers left their posts to become rulers and a human hierarchy developed which seperated the people from direct rulership by the Holy Spirit. Without watchers the Catholic Church has wandered into all kinds of errors, including believing its structure to be holy, divine and infallable, separate from the sinful members. A holy mother, guiding sinful children.

Jesus also said call no one teachers or masters and I don't think you are aware that Jesus Himself called Nicodemus "teacher" and "master." I don't think you are also aware that the Apostles called men "father" including Jesus Himself. Here is what Jesus actually said.

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Okay, so.......according to the above biblical verse, Christ is saying don't call any man on earth "master," "teacher," and "father." The word for "master" and "teacher" are actually the same. Now below is Jesus calling Nicodemus "master" or "teacher."

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?


Now here is Jesus calling a man on earth "father."

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

When Christ was telling the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus also said "Father Abraham" in that parable. So, was Jesus being a hypocrite for telling His disciples not to call any man teacher or master and father, but turn around and used those words Himself?? No. Jesus was not being a hypocrite. You see........Jesus never meant what he said in Matthew 23:8-10 literally. Now, let's take a look at the Apostles. Do they know that Jesus did not mean to take this literally like when He told them that it's better to cut off your arm and cast it into Hell rather than for your whole body to be cast in Hell?? Did the Apostles who were there knew that Jesus words were not meant to be taken literally? Of course they did because they were there. And here is Stephen (a disciple of Christ) addressing the high priests and Pharisees in his speech:

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,.

Here is the Apostle Paul calling Abraham "father."

Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

In fact, the Apostle Paul also called himself a teacher and a father.

1 Corinthians 4:15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

If YOU actually take Matthew 23:8-10 literally, you should not be calling anyone "Mr" or "Doctor" because those translates to "master" and "teacher." You should also not call your dad....."father." And please don't tell me that Jesus was referring to only "priests" because your English translation says "Call NO MAN "father"......so if you take His words literally.....that would also include your "dad".

 

[day]

Jesus also said call no one teachers or masters and I don't think you are aware that Jesus Himself called Nicodemus "teacher" and "master." I don't think you are also aware that the Apostles called men "father" including Jesus Himself. Here is what Jesus actually said.

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

If YOU actually take Matthew 23:8-10 literally, you should not be calling anyone "Mr" or "Doctor" because those translates to "master" and "teacher." You should also not call your dad....."father." And please don't tell me that Jesus was referring to only "priests" because your English translation says "Call NO MAN "father"......so if you take His words literally.....that would also include your "dad".

You misrepresent what Jesus is saying. Look again at the highlighted text. Jesus is saying do not give to men the spiritual authoriity/role that belongs to God alone. He was not discussing biological and social roles which your follow up comment shows that you understand. The Catholic Church has deliberately done what he said not to do.

 

[Selene]

You misrepresent what Jesus is saying. Look again at the highlighted text. Jesus is saying do not give to men the spiritual authoriity/role that belongs to God alone. He was not discussing biological and social roles which your follow up comment shows that you understand. The Catholic Church has deliberately done what he said not to do.

This is what scripture says:

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

It says "Call no man your father upon the earth". It does not mention anything about biological or social roles. It simply says that no man on earth should be called "father."

Why didn't you address the scriptures I pointed out to you.

Don't you have anything to say about the Apostle Paul calling himself a "father" and "teacher?" Jesus said "Do not call yourself "teacher." And here we have in the Bible the Apostle Paul calling himself "teacher."

Do you have anything to say about Stephen addressing the high priest and Pharisees as brothers and "father?" When Stephen addressed the high priest "father", it has nothing to do with biological roles.

Do you have anything to say about why Jesus called Nicodemus "teacher" or why Jesus called Abraham....Father Abraham? Abraham was a man on earth, and Jesus called him "Father Abraham." Nicodemus was a Pharisee, and Jesus called him "teacher" (or "master" as in some Bible). When Jesus called Nicodemus (who was a Pharisee) "teacher", it had nothing to do with biological roles because Jesus was not biologically related to Nicodemus.

In light of these scriptures that I pointed out to you, don't you think that perhaps what Jesus said in Matthew 23:8-10 is not meant to be taken literally? After all, His Apostles didn't take it literally, so why should we? Perhaps, if we read further into scripture and not just stop at verse 10, it would tell us what Jesus really meant.