Can you repent without works?

[Daniel L.]

There is absolutely nothing in the context of the passage or in the Hebrew that suggests it is appropriate that repayment should be made to anyone other than the robbed party.

What it does say is: if you "give again" what you have robbed you live, if you don't "give again" what you have robbed, you die. So, to the robbed party or not, it is clear you have to give it away to your neighbour.

 

[Bob Estey]

We are told in scripture that we are to do works meet for repentance. But what does that mean? Are works required for repentance? I have often heard people say that repentance is stopping sin, but I'm starting to think that repentance is more than just stopping sin. It involves works.

In the NA, AA and other anonymous programs we find that they are designed to turn people to a higher power and direct them to works that appear to make successful their efforts. And I believe these programs to be designed by God, inspired by God.

And now I read that we are to provide "works meet for repentance". And I think those works are the same works Jesus taught throughout the bible. Including baptism and the Holy Sacrament.

Ref:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 26:20 “But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.”

I think its context, "repent" means to stop sinning. Works certainly will follow, but I don't think they are a requirement.

 

[BarneyFife]

What it does say is: if you "give again" what you have robbed you live, if you don't "give again" what you have robbed, you die. So, to the robbed party or not, it is clear you have to give it away to your neighbour.

Are you quite sure that it's clear? Is to "give it away" the same as to "give again?" Is it possible to "give again" to someone from whom one has never received--such as the not robbed party? Could these distinctions be important for purposes of clarity?

 

[Daniel L.]

give again

If you see all humans as your neighbor, then you can "give again" to any human, and it would include the robbed party.

 

[BarneyFife]

If you see all humans as your neighbor, then you can "give again" to any human, and it would include the robbed party.

Sounds a bit mystical to me. With a loose hermeneutical method such as you propose one can come to any fanciful conclusion they like. You could "give again" to the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and be within the will of God. Of course, that could be right up the alley of some who call themselves "Christians."

 

[Daniel L.]

Imperial

Luke 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

 

[BarneyFife]

Luke 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

I just noticed you're from Portugal. I suspect we've got a severe language/culture challenge going on here. My apologies. When you quoted Luke 20:25 in response to the word "Imperial" in the context of an American white supremacist group (KKK) I new there must be a systemic barrier to communication in play. I've been using a mobile device for the last few days, so I couldn't see the part of the user info that indicates nationality. Again, I apologize.

 

[Truther]

Sin. Repentance literally means to turn. It's not new years eve resolutions to stop smoking or drinking, etc. It's turning from a life of sin to submission to Jesus Christ.

Making Jesus Lord of your life, committing your soul to His care, is repentance. His work of sanctification in us is showing us our sin, and our part is confessing that what He shows us is sin and then striving against it, but when we do sin despite our attempts not to, the blood of Christ cleanses us of that sin every day. This isn't my idea, but what scripture teaches.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:6-6-8
Verse 7 speaks about fellowship with Christ as walking with Him in the light, but you need to understand what John meant by "light". Scripture says that God's light issues from His word.

Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path. Psalm 119:105

Your testimonies are wonderful;
Therefore my soul keeps them.
The entrance of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple. Psalm 119:129-130

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. John 8:31

If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. John 15:7

Examine me, O Lord, and prove me;
Try my mind and my heart.
3 For Your lovingkindness is before my eyes,
And I have walked in Your truth.
4 I have not sat with idolatrous mortals,
Nor will I go in with hypocrites. Psalm 26:2-4

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. Psalm 119:160

16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 17:16-17

Our nature according to the flesh wants to be busy working for righteousness, but Jesus was clear about what was important for His disciples to do:
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”John 6:28-29

38 Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus’ feet and heard His word. 40 But Martha was distracted with much serving, and she approached Him and said, “Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me.”
41 And Jesus answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. 42 But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her.” Luke 10:38-42

You'll notice that Jesus wasn't condemning of Martha's service, but commended Mary for sitting near Him and hearing His word (the "one thing is needed"). His Spirit transforms us through His word, and applying His word to life.

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2

You'll notice that verse 12:1 says to present ourselves as a living sacrifice, but "by the mercies of God."
Mercy is always the expression of forgiveness, so our "work" is accepting His forgiveness in sanctification, trusting in His blood to cleanse us from all sin, and not that we are sinless, but seek His righteousness. Recognizing our sin and believing in our forgiveness is what creates our love for God.

Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” Luke 7:47

9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 1 John 4:9-11

Sanctification is accomplished by returning God's love, a love expressed in forgiveness of sin. His commandment is to love one another. Love fulfills all the commandments but it should be understood that this "love" isn't simply warm fuzzy feelings, but doing, extending mercy and grace to others.

And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

I've heard some say that we satisfy God by obeying the ten commandments, but that ignores what Jesus taught:

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40
The point being that you can not love your neighbor without loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and that love does no evil to a neighbor. This love is the expression of His mercy and in a word, forgiveness, first His forgiveness of our sin, then our forgiveness of our neighbors sin.

Grace goes beyond mercy.

And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matthew 5:41

If you can do these things without Christ, you prove God mistaken, but I know that my God can do what I'm not able to do for "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13

We are not complete in ourselves or in a spouse, but we are complete in Christ. His righteousness is sufficient to change us, to accomplish what we can't accomplish in ourselves, and to make us acceptable before God. Amen

God repented of your sins for you? Did He ask Himself to forgive your sins so you never had to repent for yourself?

 

[Daniel L.]

You could "give again" to the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and be within the will of God.

Ceasar was also wicked and God said to give to him. You have to "give again" what you have stolen, even if you "give again" to Ceasar, you are doing what is right. It is permitted for the hardness of his heart, and the filling up of the chalice of his condemnation. But you are free from guilt, because you gave again what you have stolen, acording to His will, even if you gave it to evil. That is the verse: Give the money to Ceasar, but the soul to God.

 

[BarneyFife]

Ceasar was also wicked and God said to give to him. You have to "give again" what you have stolen, even if you "give again" to Ceasar, you are doing what is right. It is permitted for the hardness of his heart, and the filling up of the chalice of his condemnation. But you are free from guilt, because you gave again what you have stolen, acording to His will, even if you gave it to evil. That is the verse: Give the money to Ceasar, but the soul to God.

Actually, what He said was to render to Caesar that which was already his. There is no giving involved. I don't see what the separation of church and state as pertaining to the paying of taxes has to do with reparations. You seem to be intent on making reparations out to be about anything and everything but reparations. If I knew you better I might be inclined to say you're just being obstinate. We never resolved the Law/Word matter. This isn't looking any more promising.

 

[michaelvpardo]

God repented of your sins for you? Did He ask Himself to forgive your sins so you never had to repent for yourself?

This is comical, but I can't explain what is spiritual to a carnal mind. Believe what you want. I'll stick with scripture.

 

[Daniel L.]

There is no giving involved.

There is the "giving back" to the world the things that are of the world.
Rendering to Ceasar what is already his, is still a "giving back" because you are distinct from Ceasar, so it is not Ceasar giving to himself, it is you giving back to Ceasar. So, when you give the money back to the world it is a giving back, because you are distinct from the world. We are in the world but not of it. So, the only reason you have for not giving back is if you are of this world and the lust thereof.

 

[BarneyFife]

There is the "giving back" to the world the things that are of the world.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with reparations--Não a reparação.

Rendering to Ceasar what is already his, is still a "giving back" because you are distinct from Ceasar, so it is not Ceasar giving to himself, it is you giving back to Ceasar. So, when you give the money back to the world it is a giving back, because you are distinct from the world. We are in the world but not of it. So, the only reason you have for not giving back is if you are of this world and the lust thereof.

Moving the goalposts slightly from "giving again" to "giving back" won't help your case, either.

And "distinct from Caesar"/"Caesar giving to himself?" Are you actually trying to teach me metaphysics now?

There is no biblical foundation for teaching that God accepts payment of taxes in lieu of reparations from a thief to the robbed. You can theorize and rationalize all you want. It is bogus. Bunk. Junk theology.

On top of that, in your last 2 sentences above, you've erected a strongly-implied, straw man accusation that I advocate not giving again that which is robbed. When, actually, I suggested a method of doing so, in the absence of a live victim or family thereof, in --Post #97-- (link).

 

[Daniel L.]

has absolutely nothing to do with reparations

the One Who ultimately owns

The reparation is to obey His Word, everything He commands is a valid reparation, because the sin was against God. So when you give to the poor, is a valid reparation, since you turned from stealing to giving, and that is repentance and ammendment, so God should forgive you.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

so God should forgive you.


You have completely missed the only reasons that God forgives “ anybody”.....

There are two reasons....#1 Christ’s Blood. #2 One’s Faith In #1.

 

[BarneyFife]

The reparation is to obey His Word, everything He commands is a valid reparation, because the sin was against God. So when you give to the poor, is a valid reparation, since you turned from stealing to giving, and that is repentance and ammendment, so God should forgive you.

Yes, I understand. You are insisting, once again, that reparation is about anything and everything but reparation.

Forgiveness is not the issue here. The issue is bringing forth fruits meet for repentance.

You can make up your own definition of the word "reparation" if you like but, then, there is actual reality to consider. Unless, of course, you prefer to just forego reality.

 

[Daniel L.]

that reparation is about anything and everything but reparation.

I guess you don't need reparation then, you are only required by law to ammend for your sins.

 

[Truther]

This is comical, but I can't explain what is spiritual to a carnal mind. Believe what you want. I'll stick with scripture.

Well, when you can produce a verse that says God commands himself to repent in our stead you have me as a follower.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well, when you can produce a verse that says God commands himself to repent in our stead you have me as a follower.

This isn't what I've said, but rather I've quoted scripture directly:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13
I've quoted this scripture repeatedly. Did you read verse 13.
What does this mean, "it is God"?
What does this mean "who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure?"
What is His good pleasure?
Isn't our repentance and faith in His Son at least part of "His good pleasure?"

Think about that for a while, but understand one thing. I don't want or need followers. I serve Jesus Christ and He is the only man worth following and the only God we can know. There is only one God, not three, but He is revealed in three persons, the invisible immortal Father, the visible immortal Son, and the invisible immortal Holy Spirit who can manifest in visible ways.
If you've believed Him and asked for His Spirit in submission to His Son, then His Spirit is more than capable of teaching you all things (though He does this over time and in fellowship with you in His word.) Amen. All that He really requires is your belief and submission to Him, and even your belief is something He can and does give.

23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” Mark9:23-25 ESV

May God bless you with grace and understanding. Amen.

 

[farouk]

This isn't what I've said, but rather I've quoted scripture directly:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13
I've quoted this scripture repeatedly. Did you read verse 13.
What does this mean, "it is God"?
What does this mean "who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure?"
What is His good pleasure?
Isn't our repentance and faith in His Son at least part of "His good pleasure?"

Think about that for a while, but understand one thing. I don't want or need followers. I serve Jesus Christ and He is the only man worth following and the only God we can know. There is only one God, not three, but He is revealed in three persons, the invisible immortal Father, the visible immortal Son, and the invisible immortal Holy Spirit who can manifest in visible ways.
If you've believed Him and asked for His Spirit in submission to His Son, then His Spirit is more than capable of teaching you all things (though He does this over time and in fellowship with you in His word.) Amen. All that He really requires is your belief and submission to Him, and even your belief is something He can and does give.

23 And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” 24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” 25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” Mark9:23-25 ESV

May God bless you with grace and understanding. Amen.

@michaelvpardo Those are very searching verses there in Philippians. The sovereignty of God in His ways is such a precious subject.