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DuckieLady

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Ummmm..... You have it backwards Taken.

The teaching that Mary is a perpetual virgin has been taught by The Church since the beginning. It was the first teaching of Christianity. The teaching that Mary had other children took hold 500 years ago AFTER the Protestant Revolution.

So the real questions you should be asking is: Why do Protestants claim that Mary WASN'T a perpetual virgin and go against what Christianity has taught for almost 2,000 years? Why do Protestants accept a 500-year teaching of men but reject a 2,000-year teaching of The Church?

Keeping it real....Mary
Just want to answer,

Matthew1:18

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

(that before says there was an after, it did happen)
Matthew 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

What that means is she was kept a virgin until after his birth and then the marriage was consummated and that would make sense not just because the Bible says so, but because they were married.
 

Marymog

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Just want to answer,

Matthew1:18

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

(that before says there was an after, it did happen)
Matthew 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

What that means is she was kept a virgin until after his birth and then the marriage was consummated and that would make sense not just because the Bible says so, but because they were married.
Ok....You have been taught that a woman must have sex with the man she is married to and you have rejected the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity. Why do you reject 2,000 years of teaching and accept a 500 year teaching?

The Church believes that Mary, who was chosen by God to give birth to his Son, remained dedicated to God; the father of her child. You don't think that Mary had the willpower to resist sexual relations with a man after being chosen by God to give birth to His child. Even though we know that millions of women over the last 2,000 years have remained a virgin in their dedication to God....Mary just didn't have the will power to do that....Fascinating theory!
 

Cassandra

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Ok....You have been taught that a woman must have sex with the man she is married to and you have rejected the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity. Why do you reject 2,000 years of teaching and accept a 500 year teaching?

The Church believes that Mary, who was chosen by God to give birth to his Son, remained dedicated to God; the father of her child. You don't think that Mary had the willpower to resist sexual relations with a man after being chosen by God to give birth to His child. Even though we know that millions of women over the last 2,000 years have remained a virgin in their dedication to God....Mary just didn't have the will power to do that....Fascinating theory!
doesn't have anything to do with theory. Fluffy is just quoting Bible verses. That is what we have in our Bibles.
Matt 1:25 is the same in the Douay version:
"25. And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."
Matthew, 1 - Bíblia Católica Online

Leia mais em: https://www.bibliacatolica.com.br/en/douay-rheims-version/matthew/1/
 

DuckieLady

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Ok....You have been taught that a woman must have sex with the man she is married to and you have rejected the 2,000 year teaching of Christianity. Why do you reject 2,000 years of teaching and accept a 500 year teaching?

The Church believes that Mary, who was chosen by God to give birth to his Son, remained dedicated to God; the father of her child. You don't think that Mary had the willpower to resist sexual relations with a man after being chosen by God to give birth to His child. Even though we know that millions of women over the last 2,000 years have remained a virgin in their dedication to God....Mary just didn't have the will power to do that....Fascinating theory!
Well, that's kind of the point in a way, but no, that's besides the point in this case.

The verses straight up say when and that she waited.

I hate these talks because I know how sensitive things can be, especially if it is all a person has believed, and then the mindset has to be challenged, but isn't it better to know what the word says than what we have been told?

Theoretically, what would you choose?

I showed you what it says. Can you tell me this:

1. Where does it say Mary was a virgin forever?
2. Why does she need to be pure forever?
3. She was married, so why is it a shame for her to have had relations? It was designed by God and took place from the time of Adam and Eve.
4. Do you believe sex in marriage causes a person to be impure? If so, where does it say that?

Mary having been a good wife and having a marriage, in no way taints the Bible or the gospel, but it does challenge a false belief. We know exactly when it happened. The Bible tells us so.
 

Grailhunter

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Just want to answer,

Matthew1:18

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.

(that before says there was an after, it did happen)
Matthew 1:24-25

Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

What that means is she was kept a virgin until after his birth and then the marriage was consummated and that would make sense not just because the Bible says so, but because they were married.

What does that mean????
As you probably know there are a few doctrines regarding the virginity of Miriam and the extent of her virginity.
As the angel is talking to her, Miriam makes it clear that she had not known a man. That is the clearest definition for virginity for her because the words for virgin in this time period are much less specific and are not connected to the hymen.

On the other hand the word virgin in Luke 1:27 is best translated as young maiden or a woman that has not had a child.
That is why confirming a woman's virginity in this time period was more about looking for signs of suckling.

"have not known a man"
Now if you can find a scripture were she says that after she conceived....you would make a lot of people happy because a lot of people want to believe that.

As far as Joseph not having sex with Miriam until after the baby was born, that would be very appropriate. Good advise! Do not mess around with a woman that has a God insider her....LOL

Bottom line, the storyline confirms that Miriam was a virgin before she conceived.....but no scriptures that indicate she was a virgin after she conceived or after she delivered Yeshua. And the phrase "Virgin Mary" does occur in the Bible.

Doctrines.....mandated beliefs.....words and phrases that do not appear in the scriptures.....generally do not pan out.

We can debate the word virgin but it is an old argument that does not have a definitive conclusion.
 

Marymog

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Well, that's kind of the point in a way, but no, that's besides the point in this case.

The verses straight up say when and that she waited.

I hate these talks because I know how sensitive things can be, especially if it is all a person has believed, and then the mindset has to be challenged, but isn't it better to know what the word says than what we have been told?

Theoretically, what would you choose?

I showed you what it says. Can you tell me this:

1. Where does it say Mary was a virgin forever?
2. Why does she need to be pure forever?
3. She was married, so why is it a shame for her to have had relations? It was designed by God and took place from the time of Adam and Eve.
4. Do you believe sex in marriage causes a person to be impure? If so, where does it say that?

Mary having been a good wife and having a marriage, in no way taints the Bible or the gospel, but it does challenge a false belief. We know exactly when it happened. The Bible tells us so.
I accept the 2,000 year teaching of The Church. You reject it. Why do you reject it and accept the 500 year teaching of men?

Curious Mary
 

DuckieLady

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What does that mean????
As you probably know there are a few doctrines regarding the virginity of Miriam and the extent of her virginity.
As the angel is talking to her, Miriam makes it clear that she had not known a man. That is the clearest definition for virginity for her because the words for virgin in this time period are much less specific and are not connected to the hymen.

On the other hand the word virgin in Luke 1:27 is best translated as young maiden or a woman that has not had a child.
That is why confirming a woman's virginity in this time period was more about looking for signs of suckling.

"have not known a man"
Now if you can find a scripture were she says that after she conceived....you would make a lot of people happy because a lot of people want to believe that.

As far as Joseph not having sex with Miriam until after the baby was born, that would be very appropriate. Good advise! Do not mess around with a woman that has a God insider her....LOL

Bottom line, the storyline confirms that Miriam was a virgin before she conceived.....but no scriptures that indicate she was a virgin after she conceived or after she delivered Yeshua. And the phrase "Virgin Mary" does occur in the Bible.

Doctrines.....mandated beliefs.....words and phrases that do not appear in the scriptures.....generally do not pan out.

We can debate the word virgin but it is an old argument that does not have a definitive conclusion.
Did you mean to quote me?

I think you meant that for someone else
 

DuckieLady

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I accept the 2,000 year teaching of The Church. You reject it. Why do you reject it and accept the 500 year teaching of men?

Curious Mary
I read the Bible... It is there in black and white.

That's the teaching of your church- not mine.

Can you tell me what you think it is saying?
 

DuckieLady

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What does that mean????
As you probably know there are a few doctrines regarding the virginity of Miriam and the extent of her virginity.
As the angel is talking to her, Miriam makes it clear that she had not known a man. That is the clearest definition for virginity for her because the words for virgin in this time period are much less specific and are not connected to the hymen.

On the other hand the word virgin in Luke 1:27 is best translated as young maiden or a woman that has not had a child.
That is why confirming a woman's virginity in this time period was more about looking for signs of suckling.

"have not known a man"
Now if you can find a scripture were she says that after she conceived....you would make a lot of people happy because a lot of people want to believe that.

As far as Joseph not having sex with Miriam until after the baby was born, that would be very appropriate. Good advise! Do not mess around with a woman that has a God insider her....LOL

Bottom line, the storyline confirms that Miriam was a virgin before she conceived.....but no scriptures that indicate she was a virgin after she conceived or after she delivered Yeshua. And the phrase "Virgin Mary" does occur in the Bible.

Doctrines.....mandated beliefs.....words and phrases that do not appear in the scriptures.....generally do not pan out.

We can debate the word virgin but it is an old argument that does not have a definitive conclusion.
Sorry, the words "until" and "before" and the very clear statement of when, I think are enough, and otherwise there would be no need for the mention of timing or the sentence wouldn't make sense.

It is there and it is clear on its own.

Why would we want to hear more about their marriage? The focus is on the gospel after.

Much more said than that and it would be a bit offensive, it is concisely written with purity.
 

Grailhunter

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Why would we want to hear more about their marriage? The focus is on the gospel after.
Because the scriptures are talking about Joseph not having sex with Miriam until after she had her baby.

Much more said than that and it would be a bit offensive, it is concisely written with purity.
Much more said about what?

Sorry, the words "until" and "before" and the very clear statement of when,

What are you talking about here?
 

Marymog

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I read the Bible... It is there in black and white.

That's the teaching of your church- not mine.

Can you tell me what you think it is saying?
Hey Duck,

About 500 years ago your men "read the Bible" and they determined that "It is there in black and white".

About 2,000 years ago my men read the bible and determined it is in there in black and white.

Sooooo you believe your men and I believe mine. Why are your men right and my men wrong? Are your men smarter than mine?
 
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DuckieLady

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Hey Duck,

About 500 years ago your men "read the Bible" and they determined that "It is there in black and white".

About 2,000 years ago my men read the bible and determined it is in there in black and white.

Sooooo you believe your men and I believe mine. Why are your men right and my men wrong? Are your men smarter than mine?

I will not claim anyone to be smarter than anyone else, and I don't think doing so would help either of us.

I think I am not the person you want to ask that to.

I am anabaptist, it is our believers that were burned at stakes and murdered for rebaptizing.

So I will sum it up gently and lovingly, your Catholic churches had a lot of control. Then we got to read the Bible for ourselves.
 

Illuminator

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Sorry, the words "until" and "before" and the very clear statement of when, I think are enough, and otherwise there would be no need for the mention of timing or the sentence wouldn't make sense.

It is there and it is clear on its own.
Matt. 1:25 – this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 – I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

read more here
 

DuckieLady

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Matt. 1:25 – this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 – I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

read more here
You know I am not really in the mood to debate this, but it is obvious and clear, the entire rest of the sentence wouldn't make sense to even exist and it is extremely clear.

This is actually called flat out denial of what you know to be true, and I am not going to explain it because you know it is true but for the sake of this religion and the church, you all feel it is your upstanding duty to deny what is written and say "the grass is blue."

No, it isn't.

It will never be.

And when we die and answer to Jesus, will we answer saying we knew him and upheld Biblical truths, or will we say that we knew the traditions of men and committed idolatry and decieved, lying about the gospel, not for the sake of Jesus Christ, but for the sake of men?

Is it worth the idolatry to risk hearing, "I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity"?

Btw @Illuminator for what it is worth, I am not trying to bash you, it is only "An open rebuke is better than hidden love."

I have always liked you and your cute little bird, too.
 
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Marymog

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I will not claim anyone to be smarter than anyone else, and I don't think doing so would help either of us.

I think I am not the person you want to ask that to.

I am anabaptist, it is our believers that were burned at stakes and murdered for rebaptizing.

So I will sum it up gently and lovingly, your Catholic churches had a lot of control. Then we got to read the Bible for ourselves.
Ummmm.....Your denomination was created by men in the 16th century. So who stopped your forefathers from reading the bible BEFORE the 16th century?

None the less, you clearly believe your forefathers were smarter than everyone else otherwise you wouldn't have joined......Right?

Curious Mary
 
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Marymog

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I am anabaptist, it is our believers that were burned at stakes and murdered for rebaptizing.....
Catholics were killed and tortured by other Protestants and Protestants tortured and killed other Protestants......So it's a mute point!