Catholics

[Old Man]

This is not a debate thread, but is a thread where we could learn more about Catholics, these are all pretty basic questions I'm starting this thread of with, but I think a lot of us other Christians have been taught wrongly about the Catholics. Now i would rather hear from Catholics themselves, about what are the differences between Catholics to other Christians are?

This is very noble of you. Most will never bother to hear what Catholics have to say, only anti-Catholics with an ax to grind.

What makes a Catholic a Catholic?

The absolute minimum is baptism using the trinitarian formula. Normally infants are baptized as soon as possible and a priest or deacon conducts the ceremony. There is an exorcism and anointing of the child with holy chrism (olive oil blessed by the local bishop). However, in danger of death, anyone can baptize. There are three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist (Communion). In the Eastern Catholic churches all three are administered immediately to bring the infant into full communion. In the West we wait and catechize the children before administering the other two Sacraments of Initiation.

So, in reality, being Catholic really doesn't have anything to do with what you believe or how you worship. It depends on whether or not you were baptized "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Sadly, there are millions of "Catholics" who do not practice the faith. Over the last couple generations we've really dropped the ball on forming disciples in the Catholic Church. So many are leaving and most of those that are staying are just not living witnesses of the truth of the faith. So the Protestant church-planters know that the best way to build their new congregation is to catch all those who are falling away from Catholicism. And if they can nudge them a little they'll come willingly because they just don't know what it is that they are leaving. So better parking, youth programs, music, dynamic preaching and fellowship are enough to draw people away. The fact is, if they believed what the Church teaches about the Mass and the Holy Eucharist, nothing could drag them away. At least that's the way it is for me. I receive my Lord--body, blood, soul and divinity--every day.

What are the traditions in the Catholic Church?

Tradition, with a capital "T" is a formal thing for Catholics. When we talk about Tradition, Catholics mean everything that Jesus left with the apostles. The teachings, the stories, the example He set, the miracles, etc. Some of the Tradition was set down in writing by some of the apostles and those close to them. Some of these writings were later (much later) collected into one volume that we call today the New Testament. So for nearly 400 years there was a Church without a uniform, totally agreed-upon, scripture. All the writings were around and the individual churches read them in community, but some used books that today are not part of scripture and others did not have books that today are included. So, Tradition is everything that Jesus left us, some of which is also Scripture.

What's the significance of Mary the mother of Jesus to the Catholics?

We honor Mary (not worship) as the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God so Mary is the Mother of God. We follow Jesus' example who followed the commandment "Honor your father and your mother." Jesus gave His mother to us from the cross: "Behold your mother." He was addressing John, the beloved disciple but we believe that he was standing in for all beloved disciples. And we take her into our homes.

Praying to Mary (and the saints). We believe those who have gone before us and are now contemplating God face-to-face are not dead, but more alive than we are. God gives them the favor of allowing them to hear our requests. We ask them to pray for us just as we ask our living friends and relatives to pray for us. Those prayers are effective. "There prayer of the righteous..." James 5:16/

When did the Catholic Church start? What were the original Catholics like compared to today?

Of course, the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ. Actually, He was transforming, fulfilling and expanding Judaism to include all nations, so you might say that our faith started with Abraham. There is no break but a continuum from Adam--to Jesus--to now and into the future--to the second coming and the consummation of the age. All other Christian sects are out-growths, or break-offs from the original Christianity. There is so much to say about this... I've suggested it before, but Rod Bennett's book "The Four Witnesses" paints a very good picture of the early Church.

Thanks for the opportunity to represent.

 

[FHII]

I have a question:

What is the current Catholic teaching about purgatory?

1. Do all Christians have to go there to be purified before going to paradise or heaven?
2. Can our prayers reduce the sentence of loved ones in purgatory?
3. Can indulgences reduce the sentence of ourselves or loved ones?
4. Can works?
5. What's going on while we are there?
6. Has anyone skipped purgatory?
7. How long are we there? Is there a formula for figuring out how long we will have to be there?
8. Do Catholics spend less time in purgatory than nob-catholics?

 

[Josho]

This is very noble of you. Most will never bother to hear what Catholics have to say, only anti-Catholics with an ax to grind.



The absolute minimum is baptism using the trinitarian formula. Normally infants are baptized as soon as possible and a priest or deacon conducts the ceremony. There is an exorcism and anointing of the child with holy chrism (olive oil blessed by the local bishop). However, in danger of death, anyone can baptize. There are three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Eucharist (Communion). In the Eastern Catholic churches all three are administered immediately to bring the infant into full communion. In the West we wait and catechize the children before administering the other two Sacraments of Initiation.

So, in reality, being Catholic really doesn't have anything to do with what you believe or how you worship. It depends on whether or not you were baptized "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Sadly, there are millions of "Catholics" who do not practice the faith. Over the last couple generations we've really dropped the ball on forming disciples in the Catholic Church. So many are leaving and most of those that are staying are just not living witnesses of the truth of the faith. So the Protestant church-planters know that the best way to build their new congregation is to catch all those who are falling away from Catholicism. And if they can nudge them a little they'll come willingly because they just don't know what it is that they are leaving. So better parking, youth programs, music, dynamic preaching and fellowship are enough to draw people away. The fact is, if they believed what the Church teaches about the Mass and the Holy Eucharist, nothing could drag them away. At least that's the way it is for me. I receive my Lord--body, blood, soul and divinity--every day.



Tradition, with a capital "T" is a formal thing for Catholics. When we talk about Tradition, Catholics mean everything that Jesus left with the apostles. The teachings, the stories, the example He set, the miracles, etc. Some of the Tradition was set down in writing by some of the apostles and those close to them. Some of these writings were later (much later) collected into one volume that we call today the New Testament. So for nearly 400 years there was a Church without a uniform, totally agreed-upon, scripture. All the writings were around and the individual churches read them in community, but some used books that today are not part of scripture and others did not have books that today are included. So, Tradition is everything that Jesus left us, some of which is also Scripture.




We honor Mary (not worship) as the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God so Mary is the Mother of God. We follow Jesus' example who followed the commandment "Honor your father and your mother." Jesus gave His mother to us from the cross: "Behold your mother." He was addressing John, the beloved disciple but we believe that he was standing in for all beloved disciples. And we take her into our homes.

Praying to Mary (and the saints). We believe those who have gone before us and are now contemplating God face-to-face are not dead, but more alive than we are. God gives them the favor of allowing them to hear our requests. We ask them to pray for us just as we ask our living friends and relatives to pray for us. Those prayers are effective. "There prayer of the righteous..." James 5:16/



Of course, the Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ. Actually, He was transforming, fulfilling and expanding Judaism to include all nations, so you might say that our faith started with Abraham. There is no break but a continuum from Adam--to Jesus--to now and into the future--to the second coming and the consummation of the age. All other Christian sects are out-growths, or break-offs from the original Christianity. There is so much to say about this... I've suggested it before, but Rod Bennett's book "The Four Witnesses" paints a very good picture of the early Church.

Thanks for the opportunity to represent.

Good reply, with some interesting information that i did not know about the Catholics, thanks for sharing.

 

[tabletalk]

This question concerns issues between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (Eastern, Russian, etc.).

If the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist and a valid Priesthood, then I assume the elements of the Eucharist are transformed in the Orthodox mass the same as the Catholic mass.
If that is true, then because the Orthodox Church does not teach the doctrine of Transubstantiation, are the Orthodox desecrating the Eucharist by not treating it the same as the Catholic Church? (such as how the leftovers are treated?)

 

[Mungo]

I have a question:

What is the current Catholic teaching about purgatory?

1. Do all Christians have to go there to be purified before going to paradise or heaven?
2. Can our prayers reduce the sentence of loved ones in purgatory?
3. Can indulgences reduce the sentence of ourselves or loved ones?
4. Can works?
5. What's going on while we are there?
6. Has anyone skipped purgatory?
7. How long are we there? Is there a formula for figuring out how long we will have to be there?
8. Do Catholics spend less time in purgatory than nob-catholics?

Many questions FHII. Let me first answer this one first.
What is the current Catholic teaching about purgatory?

In the Catechism we find the following statements in the section on Purgatory:
1. “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).

2. “The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)
The rest of the section on Purgatory is concerned with the justification of this doctrine.

Also note that purgatory is a process, or state of being, not a place. Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger, lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

 

[Mungo]

I have a question:
1. Do all Christians have to go there to be purified before going to paradise or heaven?

Purgatory is about becoming holy. We are urged to become holy in this life.
“But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.” (2Pet 3:13-14)

“Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1Jn 3:2-3)

“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

The writer of Hebrews says:
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

If we have cleansed ourselves and made holiness perfect in this life then we will go straight to heaven (Catholic or not). Let us not think though that this is our work but God working in us.

 

[Mungo]

2. Can our prayers reduce the sentence of loved ones in purgatory?
3. Can indulgences reduce the sentence of ourselves or loved ones?

Both can help those in purgatory. I don't think the term 'sentence' is appropriate. That's thinking of it in very judicial terms rather than a loving God purifying us.

4. Can works?

I don't know what you have in mind by 'works'.

5. What's going on while we are there?

I think that is answered in post #25

6. Has anyone skipped purgatory?

I think that is answered in post #26

7. How long are we there? Is there a formula for figuring out how long we will have to be there?

Time and space are dimensions of this world and so not strictly applicable to purgatory. But if we are to speak in those terms I guess it takes as long as it takes to purify us.

8. Do Catholics spend less time in purgatory than nob-catholics?

See above regarding time but I've no idea.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mungo]

This question concerns issues between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (Eastern, Russian, etc.).

If the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist and a valid Priesthood, then I assume the elements of the Eucharist are transformed in the Orthodox mass the same as the Catholic mass.
If that is true, then because the Orthodox Church does not teach the doctrine of Transubstantiation, are the Orthodox desecrating the Eucharist by not treating it the same as the Catholic Church? (such as how the leftovers are treated?)

Both Catholics and Orthodox believe that Christ is truly present.in the consecrated bread and wine. In some mysterious way the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, not merely symbolically but really.
"If you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it is through the Holy Spirit ... we know nothing more than this, that the word of God is true, active, and omnipotent, but in its manner of operation unsearchable". (St. John Damascene, born 676) .

However because of the Protestant Reformation it could not be left there and needed to be defined further and the Council of Trent declared: "by the consecration of the bread and of the wine, a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of His blood; which conversion is, by the holy Catholic Church, suitably and properly called Transubstantiation." (Council of Trent, Session 13 Chapter IV).

The Orthodox were content to leave it as mystery. Fundamentally both Catholic and Orthodox believe that the consecrated Eucharistic species are truly the body and blood of Christ, even if the Orthodox have not gone as far as the Catholic Church in defining how this can be so.

As far as I know, unconsumed Eucharistic species are treated in the same way in both Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

 

[Old Man]

I have a question:

What is the current Catholic teaching about purgatory?

1. Do all Christians have to go there to be purified before going to paradise or heaven?
2. Can our prayers reduce the sentence of loved ones in purgatory?
3. Can indulgences reduce the sentence of ourselves or loved ones?
4. Can works?
5. What's going on while we are there?
6. Has anyone skipped purgatory?
7. How long are we there? Is there a formula for figuring out how long we will have to be there?
8. Do Catholics spend less time in purgatory than nob-catholics?

1. See 1 John 5:15-16 for an explanation of the difference between Mortal Sin (unto death) and Venial Sin. Basically those who die with unrepented Mortal sin go to hell. Those who die without any sin go straight to heaven. Purgatory is for everybody else.
2. Yes.
3. Yes to both.
4. Yes. In fact many indulgences are tied to specific works.
5. The blessed soul is being purified so as to prepare to enter into the presence of God.
6. Yes.
7. Time is suspended. Life after death is timeless. God lives in the eternal now. In past centuries purgatory was talked about in terms of time, but that is not a very accurate way of talking about it. Now we say it is a process and the soul remains there until it is completed.
8. Good Catholics spend less time there, bad Catholics spend more time there. Same with everybody else.

In summary, think of Purgatory as a celestial mud-room. You don't want to walk into the royal court all mucked up with attachments from this swamp we call the world. We need a place to get cleaned up. That's purgatory.

 

[Old Man]

This question concerns issues between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (Eastern, Russian, etc.).

If the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist and a valid Priesthood, then I assume the elements of the Eucharist are transformed in the Orthodox mass the same as the Catholic mass.
If that is true, then because the Orthodox Church does not teach the doctrine of Transubstantiation, are the Orthodox desecrating the Eucharist by not treating it the same as the Catholic Church? (such as how the leftovers are treated?)

Not familiar enough with the Orthodox to answer. But I may be able to help with some general information about the Sacraments.

In order for any Sacrament to be valid four elements must be considered: matter, form, minister, or recipient.

The matter is the physical part of the Sacrament. In Baptism it's water. In Confirmation and Anointing of the Sick it's blessed oil. In the Eucharist it is wheat bread and grape wine. The form is the words of the ceremony and the intention of the minister. He (or she) must intend to do what the Church intends. The minister must be correct. In the case of baptism, anyone can minister it. In Matrimony, the spouses are the ministers. In the Holy Eucharist it must be a priest. The recipient must be qualified and in the proper state of mind to receive the graces offered.

There is a lot of nuance that I glossed over in the above paragraph and entire books have been written to clarify the validity and lawfulness of sacraments.

So, basically, if the Orthodox are not defective in any of the four points, then their Eucharist is valid. If it is true that the Orthodox Churches don't teach transubstantiation, then their ministers do not intend to confect it, so their Eucharist is invalid and transubstantiation does not occur. (It would be like a Protestant communion service.)

 

[epostle1]

I would like to know why there's an Egyptian idol that is dedicated to the sun god Ra sitting in the center of St. Peter Square? And why is there a cross at the top of it?

I've looked at several pics of St. Peter's Square and there is no Egyptian idol Ra. Maybe you mean the obelisk, or tapered stone tower, with a small cross on top. It has nothing to do with Ra. Mungo did a good job explaining the obelisk. I have a few things to add.
That obelisk was present in the Roman Circus where Peter and many others were martyred.
The small cross on top contains relics of the true cross. It symbolizes Christian victory over paganism.
Unlike most obelisks, this one has never been broken, an has no markings.
One thing the Christian Taliban never mention in any of their anti-Catholic sites: the first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans. Pagan influence on Catholicism are fallacies no one has been able to prove.
Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers

 

[Job]

Maybe you mean the obelisk, or tapered stone tower, with a small cross on top. It has nothing to do with Ra.

Ra aside, it's still an Egyptian idol. A pagan idol. What's the purpose of the idol?

The small cross on top contains relics of the true cross. It symbolizes Christian victory over paganism.

So putting a cross on a pagan idol neutralizes the pagan influence?

 

[tabletalk]

The form is the words of the ceremony and the intention of the minister. He (or she) must intend to do what the Church intends.

Thank you for your response.
So, if a Catholic Priest does not "intend to do what the Church intends" at the words of Consecration, that particular Mass is invalid?

 

[Mungo]

Ra aside, it's still an Egyptian idol. A pagan idol. What's the purpose of the idol?


So putting a cross on a pagan idol neutralizes the pagan influence?

It's just a lump of unmarked stone.
What evidence do you have it was an idol?

 

[Mungo]

Here's a prophecy about the feet of iron ( Catholics ) and clay ( Protestants ).

Daniel 2:
36: "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation.
37: You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,
38: and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all -- you are the head of gold.
39: After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
40: And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these.
41: And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay.
42: And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
43: As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
44: And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever;
45: just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

The feet of iron and clay is a symbolic phrase that means the same thing as the "two horns" in this following prophecy;

Revelation 13
11: Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
12: It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
13: It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men;
14: and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived;
15: and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
16: Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,
17: so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
18: This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

This is supposed to be a thread to learn about Catholicism from Catholics, not a Catholic bashing thread.

I'm reporting this

 

[eldios]

This is supposed to be a thread to learn about Catholicism from Catholics, not a Catholic bashing thread.

I'm reporting this

I'm sharing what Catholics are according to the prophecies. It has nothing to do with Catholic bashing.

 

[Mungo]

I'm sharing what Catholics are according to the prophecies. It has nothing to do with Catholic bashing.

So which bit of this request from Josho are you following?
Others please feel free to ask questions to our Catholic members on this forum as well, but please try not to turn this into a debate..... If that's possible. Lets give the Catholics a fair go.

You are just Catholic bashing.

 

[eldios]

So which bit of this request from Josho are you following?
Others please feel free to ask questions to our Catholic members on this forum as well, but please try not to turn this into a debate..... If that's possible. Lets give the Catholics a fair go.

You are just Catholic bashing.

No. I'm only sharing prophecies about where Catholicism and Protestant churches came from called the beast. The beast was a necessary creation to help us servants understand how we're created so Catholicism and the Protestant churches were needed by God. Without them, it would have been impossible for man and God to learn exactly how we're created in the Tree of Life.

 

[Mungo]

No. I'm only sharing prophecies about where Catholicism and Protestant churches came from called the beast. The beast was a necessary creation to help us servants understand how we're created so Catholicism and the Protestant churches were needed by God. Without them, it would have been impossible for man and God to learn exactly how we're created in the Tree of Life.

If you want to do that then do it your own thread and stop Catholic bashing in this one. Why is it impossible to have a proper discussion without anti-Catholic crazies like you jumping in?

 

[Job]

It's just a lump of unmarked stone.

When you say stuff like that, it tells me you're not being honest. Anyone who knows what an obelisk looks like will tell you that "lump of stone" is an obelisk. It was built for the worship of Egyptian gods.
Calling it anything other than what it is, is being dishonest.

What evidence do you have it was an idol?

How about your quote?

The small cross on top contains relics of the true cross. It symbolizes Christian victory over paganism.
.