Caught Up = Rapture

[martinlawrencescott]

I believe the rapture of the church is a mass martyrdom of Christians around the world until the middle of the tribulation. I believe then the dead in Christ (martyred sometime within a 40ish year period (1 generation) before the end occurs) will be caught up, and afterward the humiliated Christians who avoided martyrdom as well as the new converts within that period of time will also be caught up. I assume about 50% of Christians will miss the rapture/avoid it w/e. And by missing/avoiding the rapture I mean missing/avoiding martyrdom, not the catching up part which I believe includes all believers. I believe it's more a humiliation issue than a salvation issue.

It might be similar to the vision Warrior had.

I need help with this theory/belief. Feel free to knock it/rock it.

 

[veteran]

I believe the rapture of the church is a mass martyrdom of Christians around the world until the middle of the tribulation. I believe then the dead in Christ (martyred sometime within a 40ish year period (1 generation) before the end occurs) will be caught up, and afterward the humiliated Christians who avoided martyrdom as well as the new converts within that period of time will also be caught up. I assume about 50% of Christians will miss the rapture/avoid it w/e. And by missing/avoiding the rapture I mean missing/avoiding martyrdom, not the catching up part which I believe includes all believers. I believe it's more a humiliation issue than a salvation issue.

Martyrdom has been happenning since the times of the early Church. So don't you think there's going to be something very different about the tribulation for the end of this present world?

The 5th Seal event does reveal some of us are going to be beheaded for Christ. It's not time for that yet though, even though many Christians outside the West especially are dying for Christ today.

Since Christ is coming to gather His Church that's on the earth til then, what does that mean about His Church still existing on earth all the way up to His return? It means we are not all going to be killed.


Per the events and timing our Lord Jesus taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13, and Paul in 1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4 & 5, we're all going to be here unto the battle of Armageddon of Rev.16. That is a "day of the Lord" event, which is WHEN Christ returns "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3). 2 Peter 3:10 is specific about the elements being melted off the earth with that "day of the Lord" timing. It's not going to hurt us. It's what will end this present world and usher in Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect (Rev.20).

Looks like you've got some Bible studying to do to get these events down in your mind from The Scripture.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I'm speaking mostly about that rapture event when I talk about martyrdom. I'm assuming about 50% of Christians will be dead by the time Christ calls people up, then whether they were martyred or not they still are part of the "Catching up" part of the rapture, and there with Christ from then on, not really contradicting your view but explaining it. I'm saying the parable of the foolish virgins is about the martyrdom of Christians, going to be with our bridegroom. Many of which who are going to miss the call so to speak. I guess if you can explain to me where I'm off. I'm unaware of a lot of the events of the endtimes, but so far no ones really explained why exactly they disagree with me.

 

[Foreigner]

I believe the rapture of the church is a mass martyrdom of Christians around the world until the middle of the tribulation. I believe then the dead in Christ (martyred sometime within a 40ish year period (1 generation) before the end occurs) will be caught up, and afterward the humiliated Christians who avoided martyrdom as well as the new converts within that period of time will also be caught up. I assume about 50% of Christians will miss the rapture/avoid it w/e. And by missing/avoiding the rapture I mean missing/avoiding martyrdom, not the catching up part which I believe includes all believers. I believe it's more a humiliation issue than a salvation issue.

It might be similar to the vision Warrior had.

I need help with this theory/belief. Feel free to knock it/rock it.

-- "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

So much for "mass martyrdom."
As far as the rest of your post, I see zero Scriptural support.
Care to share how you came to these conclusions?

 

[neophyte]

Apocalyptic writing [ Books of Daniel & Revelation ] is about the present suffering and the immediate future [ persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes brtween 167 and 164 B.C.and Domitian who ruled from 81-96 A.D. when the persecution will end .It is not about the far distant future.It is not about" the end of the world."as we use the phrase now.
The author of the Book of Daniel is encouraging these persecuted Jews in code language same literary form used in the Book of Revelation the authors wanted their audiences , but not their persecutors , to understand their message. Darby, Tim LaHay , Jack Chick, Dan Brown etc. are all 'out to lunch' on their interpretations of these difficult books to interpret , Some of the symbolic language used in the apocalyptic literature found in these two Books is familiar but most is not, some people know just enough about apocalyptic language to get themselves into trouble when confronted with the study of the very early Christian communities with their writings.
The theme of the Book of Revelation hold just as true for every generation as it did for its original audience,We need not fear , we need only be faithful and be ready, for victory is ours in the risen Christ.

 

[rockytopva]

Caught Up = Rapture :)

 

[martinlawrencescott]

-- "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

So much for "mass martyrdom."
As far as the rest of your post, I see zero Scriptural support.
Care to share how you came to these conclusions?

I guess by mass I mean about 50%, thus having to do with the dead and living being raised. I guess I use the same scriptures you do. I usually come to conclusions through reason.

 

[Foreigner]

And how did your reason come up with 50%?

 

[neophyte]

rockytopva & martin,
The word "Rapture"is connected to the Latin word " rapiemur"hich appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up:

The dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16–17)​

Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term "Rapture"or do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.Jesus isn't playing games with us ,He is only coming back "One " more time, hense= '2nd' Coming.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Hey Neophyte, I'm not really disagreeing with the terminology of the rapture, everything you're saying is true. But I believe the rapture encompasses more than just the catching up at the end.

The 50% I get from the story of the foolish virgins. It's debated whether this passage is talking strictly to believers or if it is to everyone. I don't believe this passage is referring to salvation which is where I think a lot of people mess up. That the end times for Christians has to do with salvation, I don't believe. Meaning I don't believe the state of a Christian's salvation is more in jeopardy in the end times than it would be any other time. (I believe it's not period but that's a rabbit trail). I believe this parable is referring to Christians and as opposed to salvation I believe the key principal to draw from it is humiliation. But if every Christian is raptured, what is there to be humiliated about, when and if the passage isn't referring to non Christians and salvation? I then reason the passage about the dead being raised first and the living being raised after, how if we're not dead in Christ when we're raptured, we're humiliated. Unless we were converted after the fact.

How I got there is just a character study on the character of God. When is God most beautiful? In Jesus. When is Jesus most beautiful? Up to this point it has been on the cross. How are we the most like Jesus? When we suffer. It's an attributable characteristic that doesn't require martyrdom, but when we are asked to take up our cross it just all seems to make sense when talking about the end times that millions of Christians would have to make that sacrifice. Avoiding death at a time when meaning you're a Christian means dying for what you believe. I get a feeling the polarization between Christians and the world will only keep growing, and if our preaching of the gospel is complete, then I get back to what I posted originally. That's pretty much my thought process. The 50% might not even mean a literal 50% of Christians will miss, but even more pertaining to an antagonization between each other, between Christians in the church during this period in our church history.

 

[veteran]

rockytopva & martin,
The word "Rapture"is connected to the Latin word " rapiemur"hich appears in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. It means to be raised up or caught up:

The dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16–17)​

Therefore, Catholics believe that those Christians who are still living at the Second Coming of Christ will be gathered together with those who have died in Christ to be forever with the Lord. Catholics do not generally use the term "Rapture"or do they believe in a Rapture that will take place some time before the Second Coming, as do many Evangelicals.Jesus isn't playing games with us ,He is only coming back "One " more time, hense= '2nd' Coming.

But that still does not mean our Lord's Revelation is all past history like you've inferred. Men's doctrines of Preterism and Historicism are responsible for that kind of past fulfillment view of Revelation.

 

[us2are1]

Caught up = Rapture:

RAPTURE: = 1. The state of being carried away, with joy, love, etc. ; ecstasy.
2. An expression of great joy, pleasure, etc.
3. A carrying away or being carried away in body or spirit.

2 Corinthians 12:1-5
12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago — whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows - such a one was “”CAUGHT UP”” to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows —
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.
NKJV

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be “”CAUGHT UP”” together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NKJV

Revelation 12:4-5
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was “”CAUGHT UP”” to God and His throne.
NKJV

Rapture= False doctrine derived from the vanity of evil men.

those who use it and believe it are messengers (angels) of the vanity of evil men. I.O.W. = the devil and his angels

 

[rand]

Hi Son of Man,

You don't believe in the (what we are calling) Rapture?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I believe the rapture of the church is a mass martyrdom of Christians around the world until the middle of the tribulation. I believe then the dead in Christ (martyred sometime within a 40ish year period (1 generation) before the end occurs) will be caught up, and afterward the humiliated Christians who avoided martyrdom as well as the new converts within that period of time will also be caught up. I assume about 50% of Christians will miss the rapture/avoid it w/e. And by missing/avoiding the rapture I mean missing/avoiding martyrdom, not the catching up part which I believe includes all believers. I believe it's more a humiliation issue than a salvation issue.

It might be similar to the vision Warrior had.

I need help with this theory/belief. Feel free to knock it/rock it.

You need to re-read those verses again .... "the dead in Christ" refers to Christians who had already passed away ..... the Christians who were still alive were concerned the dead would miss out on Jesus' return ........ thus the assurance that the dead would rise first .... then the alive ones changed.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Hey Arnie, thanks for your views. I'm not really seeing where we're disagreeing however. Are you saying dead in Christ has to do with Christians dying from some point in history (before now I suppose) all the way up to the time of the rapture? Or are you talking about an event that has already occurred? I assume when you say "the Christians still alive were concerned the dead" ... etc. you are giving me context about the time. I'm talking about a future event that your context points to, and if you are too, then I think we're talking about the same thing.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hey Arnie, thanks for your views. I'm not really seeing where we're disagreeing however. Are you saying dead in Christ has to do with Christians dying from some point in history (before now I suppose) all the way up to the time of the rapture? Or are you talking about an event that has already occurred? I assume when you say "the Christians still alive were concerned the dead" ... etc. you are giving me context about the time. I'm talking about a future event that your context points to, and if you are too, then I think we're talking about the same thing.

What I go by is that those letters were written to the early church members (who were still alive) so it dates from back then.

Everyone in the early church expected Jesus to return any minute and they worried their dead friends had missed out. The letter was to calm those fears.

So "The dead in Christ" refers to all the Christians from back then .... and right up to today. (or the day Jesus does finally come)

The dead rise from the grave first and immediately afterward we are changed and taken up.

Notice we are all "taken up" .

I feel this indicates a separate event than when Jesus returns to earth to reign.

 

[veteran]

In Matt.24:29-31 and in Mark 13:24-27, our Lord Jesus revealed both the gathering of His elect from Heaven, and those of His from upon the earth.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I guess along what Veteran is saying, I too believe there is a separation between the Christians who die before and after the times of tribulation or the last generation per say before we are caught up. That's what I was believing though I didn't really know what scripture to support it like Veteran did.

 

[Foreigner]

Rapture= False doctrine derived from the vanity of evil men.

those who use it and believe it are messengers (angels) of the vanity of evil men. I.O.W. = the devil and his angels

-- A little harsh, isn't it?

When I first got saved, I was taught that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was going to happen.
Over the years I have come to conclude that is likely not the case.
But I can find scripture that support and scripture that negates the idea.

There are sincere Bible believing, Jesus loving Christians who have spent decades studying the Rapture, as well as if it would be pre, during, or post Tribulation.

The amazing things is that these people - whose goal is not to find support for a specific view on the topic, but rather the actual TRUTH - have come to different conclusions.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

"The amazing things is that these people - whose goal is not to find support for a specific view on the topic, but rather the actual TRUTH - have come to different conclusions."

Ya, I don't know, but at least the different views we have as Christians about the end times has kept us going back to scripture again and again to seek the truth. There has to be something said for that. People are searching for wisdom and more importantly application within that wisdom or at least I hope they are and not just taking at face value what someone else studied and calling it truth.