Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no: 1 John 5:7-9 KJV
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

I see you use the Trinitarian addition to Gods word....

1 John 5:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Footnotes:
  1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,656
7,923
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see you use the Trinitarian addition to Gods word....

1 John 5:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Footnotes:
  1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Thank you for pointing that out. I will look up in original text. It makes no difference to me for the three:Spirit, blood and water are in agreement.

1 John 5:7 KJV
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Father
Christ/the Son which is the Word.
And the Holy Ghost...are the same

Do you recommend a version other than KJV?
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Father
Christ/the Son which is the Word.
And the Holy Ghost...are the same
Do you recommend a version other than KJV?

As politely as I can, I am compelled to say that those three are not the same. There is only the Father and the Son just as the creation shows the reflection of the heavenly and there was only 2 created and those twain are one just as the Father and the Son are two unique individuals but one in purpose.

There is no one "version" of translation that is not fraught with error which is why I long ago began to learn the Hebrew and Koine Greek to get a better grasp of intent. To depend on any translation is to depend on the frailty of man to convey God's word and I have chosen not to follow translations.
Go original and depend on the HS to do the steering.

If you have a real interest in the addition of the trinity wording you referenced it has been long in contention and is known as ;
.....the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity.
https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
 
Last edited:

EndTimeWine

Active Member
Nov 5, 2017
415
69
28
52
Albany
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As politely as I can, I am compelled to say that those three are not the same. There is only the Father and the Son just as the creation shows the reflection of the heavenly and there was only 2 created and those twain are one just as the Father and the Son are two unique individuals but one in purpose.

There is no one "version" of translation that is not fraught with error which is why I long ago began to learn the Hebrew and Koine Greek to get a better grasp of intent. To depend on any translation is to depend on the frailty of man to convey God's word and I have chosen not to follow translations.
Go original and depend on the HS to do the steering.

If you have a real interest in the addition of the trinity wording you referenced it has been long in contention and is known as ;
.....the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity.
https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
As politely as I can, you can not have one without the other, the Holy Spirit is there as They are and is not created. The Holy Spirit is the mutual love between the Father and the Son and is extended to the believer. Hence is why we are to baptize in the name of the three who are ONE!
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As politely as I can, you can not have one without the other, the Holy Spirit is there as They are and is not created. The Holy Spirit is the mutual love between the Father and the Son and is extended to the believer. Hence is why we are to baptize in the name of the three who are ONE!

Ahh another trinitarian backer.
WE are not baptized in the name of three of anything.
I am baptized in Christ's name alone.
 

EndTimeWine

Active Member
Nov 5, 2017
415
69
28
52
Albany
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ahh another trinitarian backer.
WE are not baptized in the name of three of anything.
I am baptized in Christ's name alone.

Well, perhaps you can tell me why you believe what you believe?I am new and not familiar with your take on things. I thought I was backing Christ's words recorded in the Matthew account, chp.28 verses19-20" Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded; and lo, I am with you always, to the CLOSE of the age."
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, perhaps you can tell me why you believe what you believe?I am new and not familiar with your take on things. I thought I was backing Christ's words recorded in the Matthew account, chp.28 verses19-20" Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded; and lo, I am with you always, to the CLOSE of the age."

I know why you are speaking as you are and in truth I don't place blame in your court.
The verses you reference were added to scripture by men.

If you wish to get a take on what I'm asserting it would probably be easier for me to reference a site that to a great extent explains the POV. This site is just one of the first that pops up when the Mathew 28 reference is searched so I have no binding to the site or its makers.
It would also be simple if you just did a search for Mathew 28:19-20 added to bible and see the variety of arguments being given.
In the end I have found through my own private research and reading of Hebrew and Koine greek that it is indeed an addition as it does not fit together with the rest of the NT teachings.
Matthew 28 19 in Original Gospel of Matthew
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richard_oti

EndTimeWine

Active Member
Nov 5, 2017
415
69
28
52
Albany
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know why you are speaking as you are and in truth I don't place blame in your court.
The verses you reference were added to scripture by men.

If you wish to get a take on what I'm asserting it would probably be easier for me to reference a site that to a great extent explains the POV. This site is just one of the first that pops up when the Mathew 28 reference is searched so I have no binding to the site or its makers.
It would also be simple if you just did a search for Mathew 28:19-20 added to bible and see the variety of arguments being given.
In the end I have found through my own private research and reading of Hebrew and Koine greek that it is indeed an addition as it does not fit together with the rest of the NT teachings.
Matthew 28 19 in Original Gospel of Matthew
As for it having been changed from the original, Hebrew and Koine Greek do you feel this was mistranslated? Koine Greek was a dialect of the Alexandrian era. And was the language spoken during the Byzantine and Ancient Roman era and was spoken during biblical times. It was not uncommon therefore would not be difficult to translate. So, what did Christ mean in John20:22And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them " Receive the HOLY SPIRIT. And why does the Holy Spirit come upon Mary from which she conceived Christ. And why is the Holy Spirit referenced and is said to have entered the upper room and settle upon all there?
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,656
7,923
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you have a real interest in the addition of the trinity wording you referenced it has been long in contention and is known as ;
.....the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity.
The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8


I will read it. Thank you.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
I know why you are speaking as you are and in truth I don't place blame in your court.
The verses you reference were added to scripture by men.

If you wish to get a take on what I'm asserting it would probably be easier for me to reference a site that to a great extent explains the POV. This site is just one of the first that pops up when the Mathew 28 reference is searched so I have no binding to the site or its makers.
It would also be simple if you just did a search for Mathew 28:19-20 added to bible and see the variety of arguments being given.
In the end I have found through my own private research and reading of Hebrew and Koine greek that it is indeed an addition as it does not fit together with the rest of the NT teachings.
Matthew 28 19 in Original Gospel of Matthew
What you are asserting is right. You are asserting it...it is not a fact.
This is the problem with learning our faith on the internet.
Do you really care what that person that wrote the article taught??

I'm incl below the Didache. Did you ever hear of that? It was written while John was still alive. It's called the teachings of the Apostles, although they probably were not all around when it was written. The date of writing can be between 50 AD and 120 AD. Much earlier than the 300 AD year given by your source.

It confirms that baptism is to be in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Read Chapter 3.

Part 1 of 3
 
Last edited:

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Part 2 of 3


The Didache: Teachings of the 12 Apostles
The Didache is, in all probability, the oldest surviving extant piece of non-canonical literature. It is not so much a letter as a handbook for new Christian converts, consisting of instructions derived directly from the teachings of Jesus. The book can be divided into three sections. The first six chapters consist of Christian lessons; the next four give descriptions of the Christian ceremonies, including baptism, fasting and communion; and the last six outline the church organization.
The Didache claims to have been authored by the twelve apostles. While this is unlikely, the work could be a direct result of the first Apostolic Council, c.50 C.E. (Acts 15:28). Similarities to the Apostolic Decree are apparent, and the given structure of the church is quite primitive. Also, the description of the Eucharist (bread and wine) carefully avoids mention of the "body and blood of Christ," obviously being regarded as one of the secret mysteries of eary Christianity. Most scholars agree that the work, in its earliest form, may have circulated as early as the 60's C.E., though additions and modifications may have taken place well into the third century. The work was never officially rejected by the Church, but was excluded from the canon for its lack of literary value.

The complete text of the Didache was discovered in the Codex Hierosolymitanus, though a number of fragments exist, most notably in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri. It was originally composed in Greek, probably within a small community.

THE DIDACHE
Translated from the Greek text published
by Roswell D. Hitchcock in 1884.
TEACHING OF THE LORD TO THE NATIONS THROUGH THE TWELVE APOSTLES
ONE


Two ways there are, one of life and one of death, but there is a great difference between the two ways.

The way of life is indeed this: First, you will love the God who made you; secondly, "you will love your neighbor as yourself." Now all the things that you do not want to have happen to you, you too do not do these to one another.

Now the teaching of these sayings is this: "Praise those who curse you", and pray for your enemies; now fast for those who are persecuting you. For what favor is it if you love those who love you? Don't the gentiles do the same? But you love those who hate you, and you will have no enemies.

"Hold yourself away from the fleshly" and kosmic "strong desires." "If someone should give you a blow to your right cheek, turn to him also the left one," and you will be complete. "If anyone should force you to go one mile, go with him two." "If anyone takes your cloak, give him your tunic also." If anyone takes what is yours away from you, do not ask for it back. For neither are you able. "Give to everyone who asks from you," and do not ask for it back. For the Father wants to give of his own free gifts to everyone.

Blessed is the one who gives according to the precept, for he is guiltless. Woe to the one who takes. For if indeed someone takes who has a need, he will be guiltless. But the one who has no need will give a judgment as to why he took, and for what reason, and he will come under arrest and will be examined about what he did. And "he will not go out from there until he pays the last quadrans." But it has also been said about this: "Let your charitable gifts sweat in your hands, until indeed you know who to give to."

Now the second precept of the teaching is: " You will not murder. You will not commit adultery." You will not sodomize young boys. You will not have unlawful sex. " You will not steal." Do not practice magic. Do not practice sorcery. Neither murder a child by abortion, nor will you destroy what is born. You will not strongly desire your neighbor's things. You will not make oaths. " You will not bear false testimony." You will not say bad things. You will not remember bad things. You will not be double-minded or double-tongued, for the double-tongue is a snare of death. Your message is not to be false or empty, but being filled with practice. You should be neither greedy nor a swindler, nor hypocrite, nor malicious, nor high-minded. You will not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You will not hate any people, but you will reprove some, and you will pray for some, and some you will love more than your life.

My child, flee from every evil thing, and from everything like it. Do not become angry, for anger is the way to murder. Neither should you be jealous, nor one who creates strife, nor emotional. For murders are born out of all of these.

My child, do not become strongly desirous, for strong desire is the way to sexual sin. Neither should you be a speaker of filth, nor high-eyed. For adulteries are born out of all of these.

My child, do not become someone who looks for omens, since it is the way to idolatry. Neither should you be an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a cleanser. Nor should you want to look at these things, for idolatry is born out of all of these things.

My child, do not become a liar, since lying is the way to theft. Neither should you be greedy, nor a lover of money, nor worthlessly conceited. For thefts are born out of all of these things. My child, do not become a grumbler, since it leads to evil speaking. Neither should you be assumers, nor evil-minded. For evil-speakings are born out of all of these.

But be meek, since "the meek will inherit the land." Become longsuffering, and merciful, and guiltless, and quiet, and good, and throughout everything tremble at the sayings that you have heard.

You will not exalt yourself, nor will you give over-boldness to your soul. Your soul will not cling with the high people, but you will conduct yourself with the just and lowly ones. Accept the things that transpire to you as good workings, knowing that nothing happens without God.

My child, remember night and day the one who is speaking God's message to you. Now you will honor him as you would honor the Lord. For where the lordship may be spoken, there is the Lord. Now daily you will seek out the faces of the holy ones, so that you would be refreshed by their words. You will not want division, but you will make peace with those who are fighting. You will judge justly. In giving a reproof of a wandering, you will not respect anyone's presence. You will not be two souled regarding whether or not it should be. Do not become like one who stretches out his hands for taking but who draws them in for giving. If you have, you will give by your hands a ransom for your sins. You will not hesitate to give, nor will you grumble while giving. For you will know who it is that is the nice payer of the reward. You will not turn away the one who is needy, but you will share all things together with your brother, and you will not claim them to be your own things. For if you are partners in what is immortal, how much more are you partners in what is mortal?

You will not take your hand away from your son or your daughter, but from youth you will teach the fear of God. You will not give directives in your bitterness to your slave or handmaid, these who are hoping in the same God. Otherwise they may not fear the God who is over both of you. For he is not coming to call people according to appearance, but upon those whom the spirit has made ready. Now you who are slaves should be submissive to your lords in sobriety and fear, as to a type of God.

You will hate every hypocrisy and all of what is not pleasing to the Lord. You will by no means forsake the Lord's precepts, but you will guard what you have received--neither adding to them nor removing from them. You will acknowledge your wanderings in an assembly, and you will not come forward to your prayer with an evil consciousness. This is the way of life.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Part 3 of 3

THREE
Now about food: bear what you are able to bear. But watch out for the idol-sacrifices, for this is a religious service of dead gods.

Now about baptism, baptize this way: after first uttering all of these things, baptize "into the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy Spirit" in running water. But if you do not have running water, baptize in other water. Now if you are not able to do so in cold water, do it in warm water. Now if you don't have either, pour water three times on the head, "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." Now before the ritual cleansing, the baptizer and the one being baptized should fast, and any others who are able. Now you will give word for the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

But do not let your fasts be with the hypocrites. For they fast on the second day of the week and on the fifth. But you fast on the fourth day and the day of preparation. Neither should you pray like the hypocrites, but as the Lord gave word in his good message, pray like this: "Our Father, the one who is in Heaven, your name has been made holy. Let your kingdom come. Let what you want also be done on earth, as in Heaven. Give us the bread we need today and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. And don't carry us into trial, but rescue us from the evil one. For yours is the power and the glory for the age." Pray this way three times daily.

Now about the thanksgiving, give thanks this way:

First, about the cup: "We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of your boy David which you made known to us through your boy Jesus. Glory be to you for the age.

Now about the broken loaf: "We thank you, our Father, for the life and the knowledge that you made known to us through your boy Jesus. Glory be to you for the age. Just as this broken loaf was scattered on top of the hills and as it was gathered together and became one, in the same way let your assembly be gathered together from the remotest parts of the land into your kingdom. "For yours is the glory and the power through Anointed Jesus for the age." Now no one should either eat or drink from your thanksgiving meal, but those who have been baptized into the Lord's name. For about this also the Lord said, "Do not give what is holy to the dogs."

Now after you have been filled, give thanks this way: "We thank you, holy Father, for your holy name, which you made to live in our hearts, and for the knowledge and trust and immortality which you made known to us through Jesus your boy. Glory be to you for the age.

"Almighty master, it was you who created all for the sake of your name. You gave both food and drink to people for enjoyment, so that they might give thanks to you. But to us you have freely given spiritual food and drink and eternal life through your boy. Before all things, we are thankful to you that you are powerful. Glory be to you for the age.

"O Lord, remember your assembly, remember to rescue it from every evil and to make it complete in your love, and to gather it from the four winds into your kingdom which youprepared for it--it, which has been made holy. For yours is the power and the glory for the age.

"Let generosity come, and let this universe pass away. Hosanna to David's son! If someone is holy, let him come. If someone is not, he should change his mind. Marana-tha. A-mein." Now permit the prophets to give thanks as much as they want.



FOUR
Therefore, the one who comes and teaches you all of these things which have been previously spoken, accept him. But if he, the teacher, should turn to teach another teaching, so as to release this one, do not listen to him. But if he teaches to promote what is right and knowledge of the Lord, accept him as you would the Lord.

Now about the envoys and prophets, do just as according to the tenet of the good message. Now each envoy who comes to you, accept as you would the Lord. But he will not remain for one day. Now if there is need, also the next day. But if he remains for three, he is a false prophet.

Now when the envoy departs, he should take nothing except bread until he lodges. But if he should ask for money, he is a false prophet.

And every prophet who speaks with the spirit, you will not test or judge, for every sin will be forgiven. But not everyone who speaks with the spirit is a prophet: but if he has the conduct of the Lord. Therefore, from their conduct, the false prophet and the prophet will be made known. And no prophet with the spirit who orders a meal eats from it, unless indeed he is a false prophet. Now every prophet who teaches the truth, if he does not do as he teaches, is a false prophet. But every prophet who has been proved, who is true, who does things for the kosmic secrets of the assembly but who does not teach to do as he does, will not be judged among you. For the ancient prophets did it this way also. But whoever says with the spirit, "Give me money (or something else)," you will not listen to him. But if he says to give on behalf of others who are in need, no one should judge him.

Now everyone who comes in the Lord's name should be accepted. But afterward, you will examine him to know him. For you will have understanding, right and left. If the one who comes is a traveller, help him as much as you are able. But he will not remain with you except for two or three days, if there is a necessity. But if he wants to dwell with you, since he is a craftsman, he should work to eat. But if he has no craft, provide according to your understanding, so that no lazy person would be lifing among you as an "Anointed". But if he does not want to do this, he is one who profits financially from the Anointed One. Be careful about such people.

Now every true prophet who wants to settle near you is worthy of his wage. In the same way, a true teacher is also worthy, just as the workman, of his wage. Therefore, every foremost part of the products of the press and threshing floor, both of oxen and of sheep, you will take and give to the prophets. For they are your high priests.

But if you do not have a prophet, give these to the poor. If you make baked bread, take the foremost part and give according to the precept. In the same way, when you open a jar of wine or of oil, take the foremost part and give to the prophets. Now of money and clothing and every possession, take the foremost part as you think it right and give according to the precept.



FIVE
Now according to the Lord's day, gather together and break bread and give thanks, after acknowledging your wanderings to one another, so your sacrifice would be a clean one. But each one who has something against his friend, do not let him come together with you until they are reconciled, so that your sacrifice would not be made common. For this is what was declared by the Lord: " In every place and time, carry to me a clean sacrifice. Because I am a great king," says Yahweh, " and my name is a wondrous thing among the nations."



SIX
Now hand pick for yourselves overseers and servants worthy of the Lord: men who are meek, not lovers of money, true and proved. For they are giving religious service to you also, as the prophets and teachers are giving religious service.



SEVEN
Now reprove one another, not in anger but in peace, as you have it in the good message. And no one should speak to each one who misses the mark against another one, nor should he hear from you, until he changes his mind. But your vows and your charitable works and all your practices, do these, as you have it in the good message of our Lord.

Be vigilant on behalf of your life. Do not let your lamps be extinguished, and do not relax your loins. But become prepared. For you do not know the hour in which our Lord is coming. Now you will gather together often, seeking the things that are appropriate for your souls. For all the time of your trust will not profit you, if you do not become complete in the last season.

For in the last days, the false prophets and the corruptors will be multiplied, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. For when the lawlessness increases, they will hate one another, and they will persecute and deliver up, and then the deceiver of creation will appear as God's son, and he will do signs and wonders. And the land will be given up into his hands. And he will do lawless things which have never been done from the age.

Then human creation will come into the fire of examination, and many will stumble and be destroyed. But those who endure in their trust will be saved from this accursed thing. And then the signs of truth will appear. First, the sign of an opening in Heaven, then the sign of a trumpet's sound, and thirdly, a resurrection of dead people. But not of all people; on the contrary, as it was declared, "The Lord will come, and all the holy ones with him." Then creation will see the Lord "coming on the clouds of the sky."
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As for it having been changed from the original, Hebrew and Koine Greek do you feel this was mistranslated? Koine Greek was a dialect of the Alexandrian era. And was the language spoken during the Byzantine and Ancient Roman era and was spoken during biblical times. It was not uncommon therefore would not be difficult to translate. So, what did Christ mean in John20:22And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them " Receive the HOLY SPIRIT. And why does the Holy Spirit come upon Mary from which she conceived Christ. And why is the Holy Spirit referenced and is said to have entered the upper room and settle upon all there?

I am saying the text was added and not in the originals.
The holy spirit is a holy spirit of that there is no question whatsoever. The problem arises when men want to deify what God has not deified. The HS is Gods representative and not God. All such rationales were brought into tradition after the apostolic period.
The Holy Spirits have been in operation all through the OT as it was through Holy Spirits that Holy men / prophets were inspired to write scripture. The difference between old and NT is that now we can have a HS assigned to each of us permanently and they are to be our helper and guides to lead us into all truth.
I will reference a few point s here if you wish to consider what is being put forth here.

First it is written;
Heb 1:7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

God has assigned Angels who are holy spirits to minister to all those who shall be heirs of salvation.

Psalm 91:11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
Psalm 103:20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!
Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What you are asserting is right. You are asserting it...it is not a fact.
This is the problem with learning our faith on the internet.
Do you really care what that person that wrote the article taught??
I'm incl below the Didache. Did you ever hear of that?

Would you at this point accuse me of learning my faith on the internet?
The reference I gave was one of many that have been around since even before the internet. The importance of any reference given that is outside scripture is mainly for historic reference.

I know of the Didache and it like any internet site was a writing by men for men with no way to show there was any spirit inspiration in its formation. To this day it is a controversial instruction book and non-canonical according to most people.
I do not recognize it as an inspired writing when compared to scripture so it holds no relevance to me.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Would you at this point accuse me of learning my faith on the internet?
The reference I gave was one of many that have been around since even before the internet. The importance of any reference given that is outside scripture is mainly for historic reference.

I know of the Didache and it like any internet site was a writing by men for men with no way to show there was any spirit inspiration in its formation. To this day it is a controversial instruction book and non-canonical according to most people.
I do not recognize it as an inspired writing when compared to scripture so it holds no relevance to me.
Let's see.
Was Martin Luther inspired?
Is that man that wrote your article inspired?
Who today IS inspired?
NO ONE as were those that wrote the bible.

What we can go on is history.
YOU said that the Trinity did not come about until 300 AD.
I showed you that it was present hundreds of years before 300.
You don't accept it because it doesn't agree with your belief.
Many writings of the early church fathers could also be posted showing that the idea of the Trinity existed before then.

Do you think the Holy Spirit and the Trinity came about on the spot when it was incorporated into the Nicene Creed of 325 AD?
You must surely know that the N.C. was written specifically to confirm Jesus' deity and all the other statement made there.

I hear these days that the Trinity is not correct.
I hear that Jesus is not God but the annointed one.

How does one call themselves a Christian when they do not agree with what makes them be a Christian?

To be a Christian you must believe the Nicene Creed.


The Nicene Creed
325 AD
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The purpose of a creed is to provide a doctrinal statement of correct belief or orthodoxy. The creeds of Christianity have been drawn up at times of conflict about doctrine: acceptance or rejection of a creed served to distinguish believers and deniers of a particular doctrine or set of doctrines. For that reason a creed was called in Greek a σύμβολον (Eng. symbolon), a word that meant half of a broken object which, when placed together with the other half, verified the bearer's identity. The Greek word passed through Latin "symbolum" into English "symbol", which only later took on the meaning of an outward sign of something.[13]


source: wikipedia
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Let's see.
Was Martin Luther inspired?
Is that man that wrote your article inspired?
Who today IS inspired?
NO ONE as were those that wrote the bible.
What we can go on is history.
YOU said that the Trinity did not come about until 300 AD.
I showed you that it was present hundreds of years before 300.
You don't accept it because it doesn't agree with your belief.
Many writings of the early church fathers could also be posted showing that the idea of the Trinity existed before then.

Was the trinity teaching in the original inspired text of scripture? Did the trinity concept come after the time of the apostles? The time of its arrival is not the deciding factor of its truth or falseness. the fact that it is not an original concept taught by those who we know are inspired is what separates it from God breathed to man made.

How does one call themselves a Christian when they do not agree with what makes them be a Christian?
To be a Christian you must believe the Nicene Creed.
"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church."

No matter how much truth you group together with a lie in the end the lie is still a lie and I will not agree to anything that has shown by its fruits that it is anti-Christian as I am quite sure Christ would agree.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Was the trinity teaching in the original inspired text of scripture? Did the trinity concept come after the time of the apostles? The time of its arrival is not the deciding factor of its truth or falseness. the fact that it is not an original concept taught by those who we know are inspired is what separates it from God breathed to man made.



No matter how much truth you group together with a lie in the end the lie is still a lie and I will not agree to anything that has shown by its fruits that it is anti-Christian as I am quite sure Christ would agree.
How ignorant are you of history?
There was only one catholic church.
It was the universal church.
There was no other.
Catholic means universal, as I'm sure you know.
I'm not catholic, but it really bothers me how some could hate catholicism so much that it blinds them to everything from the early church.

So because of one sentence you throw everything out?
The Trinity is in the New Testament.
You refuse to see it.
Why is Mathew 28:19-20 questioned in some churches?
Because it CLEARLY shows the Trinity.
JESUS said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Did Jesus not speak of God, our Father in heaven?
Mathew 6:9

Did Jesus not speak of the Son?
1 John 5:20

Did Jesus not speak of the Holy Spirit?
John 16:7

That makes the Trinity:
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit

So do you believe that Jesus is not God?
To be honest, I really don't understand your point or how anyone could call themselves Christian and not believe in the Trinity.

WHY is the Trinity so offensive to you, as it seems to be?
I would have to assume that you do not believe Jesus is God.
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How ignorant are you of history?
There was only one catholic church.
It was the universal church.
There was no other.
Catholic means universal, as I'm sure you know.
I'm not catholic, but it really bothers me how some could hate catholicism so much that it blinds them to everything from the early church.

Catholic may have a definition of universal but today it is a defined entity. An entity that has more money than God and teaches a heretical path.

So because of one sentence you throw everything out? The Trinity is in the New Testament. You refuse to see it.
Why is Mathew 28:19-20 questioned in some churches?.
Actually I throw the one sentence out and keep the rest and people think that if you don't accept the whole thing then you accept nothing.

Because it CLEARLY shows the Trinity. JESUS said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Did Jesus say that?
Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Acts 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Acts 8:15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Or was the text in Matthew 28:19 added in at some point;

....Is it possible Matthew 28:19 was fraudulently changed to vindicate trinitarianism because very conveniently every surviving Greek text of Matthew [28:19] dates from 340 AD or later? It clearly could be modified and no one would be the wiser. Only quotes by the church fathers from an earlier time could betray the truth, as indeed seventeen such quotes exist and do so—each one omitting the trinitarian baptismal formula in their direct quotes from Matthew 28:19....

...Eusebius pre-325 AD seventeen times fully quoted this passage, and every time it did not have the trinitarian baptismal formula. However, his post-325 AD / Nicea quotes all contained the trinitarian formula. Professor Tabor comments: “Lack of Trinitarian formula for baptism in Matt 28:19-20 is unique [to Shem-Tob] but seems to be in codices that Eusebius found in Caesarea: he quotes (H.E. 3.5.2): ‘They went on their way to all the nations teaching their message in the power of Christ for he had said to them, “Go make disciples of all the nations in my name.’” (Tabor, supra.) et seq infra.
Matthew 28 19 in Original Gospel of Matthew

Did Jesus not speak of God, our Father in heaven? Mathew 6:9
Did Jesus not speak of the Son? 1 John 5:20
Did Jesus not speak of the Holy Spirit? John 16:7
That makes the Trinity:
The Father The Son The Holy Spirit
The Son speaks of the Father many times however, speaking about something does not make it or they anything other than what is spoken about them. A holy spirit is a spirit that's holy does this make it God the Father or a facet of God the Father? Angels are Holy Spirits does that make them God?

So do you believe that Jesus is not God?
I would have to assume that you do not believe Jesus is God.

Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the offspring of the Father just as it is written;

Col 1:12Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light, 13who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God (the Father) spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son (Christ), whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

To be honest, I really don't understand your point or how anyone could call themselves Christian and not believe in the Trinity. WHY is the Trinity so offensive to you, as it seems to be?

Because if God wanted to be considered a trinity then he would have made his earthly image 3 instead of the male and female that was created.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Matt 19:4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female...

It is my firm conviction that if God wants his image to be represented by two then by God I am going to follow their lead and seeing as how God does not change then I don't have to worry about that number ever being altered.
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Catholic may have a definition of universal but today it is a defined entity. An entity that has more money than God and teaches a heretical path.


Actually I throw the one sentence out and keep the rest and people think that if you don't accept the whole thing then you accept nothing.


Did Jesus say that?
Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Acts 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Acts 8:15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Or was the text in Matthew 28:19 added in at some point;

....Is it possible Matthew 28:19 was fraudulently changed to vindicate trinitarianism because very conveniently every surviving Greek text of Matthew [28:19] dates from 340 AD or later? It clearly could be modified and no one would be the wiser. Only quotes by the church fathers from an earlier time could betray the truth, as indeed seventeen such quotes exist and do so—each one omitting the trinitarian baptismal formula in their direct quotes from Matthew 28:19....

...Eusebius pre-325 AD seventeen times fully quoted this passage, and every time it did not have the trinitarian baptismal formula. However, his post-325 AD / Nicea quotes all contained the trinitarian formula. Professor Tabor comments: “Lack of Trinitarian formula for baptism in Matt 28:19-20 is unique [to Shem-Tob] but seems to be in codices that Eusebius found in Caesarea: he quotes (H.E. 3.5.2): ‘They went on their way to all the nations teaching their message in the power of Christ for he had said to them, “Go make disciples of all the nations in my name.’” (Tabor, supra.) et seq infra.
Matthew 28 19 in Original Gospel of Matthew


The Son speaks of the Father many times however, speaking about something does not make it or they anything other than what is spoken about them. A holy spirit is a spirit that's holy does this make it God the Father or a facet of God the Father? Angels are Holy Spirits does that make them God?



Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the offspring of the Father just as it is written;

Col 1:12Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light, 13who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love, 14in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God (the Father) spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son (Christ), whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.



Because if God wanted to be considered a trinity then he would have made his earthly image 3 instead of the male and female that was created.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Matt 19:4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female...

It is my firm conviction that if God wants his image to be represented by two then by God I am going to follow their lead and seeing as how God does not change then I don't have to worry about that number ever being altered.
Oh my KBC.
There's so much incorrect theology here, I may not even answer. It's just too much.

Regarding Mathew 28:19 being added.
Why weren't the verses in Acts that you quote above ALSO changed??
Could it be because IN THE NAME OF JESUS means something totally different than what you think?

If you were interested, I'd go through each concept with you, but it sounds like you've been well indoctrinated and I don't think it would do any good to answer all these theories you have.

I'm sorry the Christian faith has changed so much in the past 100 years or so. I just don't know where we'll end up. Our faith is getting watered down more and more.

I'll just say this:
In the name of Jesus is vs in the name of John the Baptist.
It's a TYPE of baptism.
John for the forgiveness of sins...
Jesus for power. See Acts 1:8 when He tells the Apostels and disciples to wait in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit will give them power.
And as you read about baptizm in Acts, it does have to do with power more than forgiveness of sins. (but for that too, of course. John's baptism did not have this added power of the Holy Spirit)
Acts 2:4