Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)

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GodsGrace

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When I signed in I did not see that this was a "catholic" only site as it only asks if one is a "Christian" so, the question of the day for you "is this a catholic only site"?
Being that I do not associate myself with any "sect" that calls itself Christian then I am not part of either the protestant group that broke away from the church that arose in the 3rd century or the 3rd century church itself so, if I see anti-Christian behavior in any officially named "Christian" entity and I point it out should I expect that such action is against some as yet unseen policy of this site?
A Christian debate forum would not have much to debate if only a specific entities view is allowed.

Now don't get me wrong I don't mind if this site is that way and I have just not yet perceived it but, it would have been nice to have full disclosure from the beginning and I would have moved on to a site that is open to all Christians as well as each of their specific views. The fact that I see an admin actively speaking out against a POV that has been openly understood for centuries by the Christian world is a telltale sign to me that such is the case.
This is a Protestant site.
It is open to all Christian's.
Some sites do not even allow threads on Catholicism.
I find this site to be very open minded.You should read the SOF.
 
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lforrest

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When I signed in I did not see that this was a "catholic" only site as it only asks if one is a "Christian" so, the question of the day for you "is this a catholic only site"?
Being that I do not associate myself with any "sect" that calls itself Christian then I am not part of either the protestant group that broke away from the church that arose in the 3rd century or the 3rd century church itself so, if I see anti-Christian behavior in any officially named "Christian" entity and I point it out should I expect that such action is against some as yet unseen policy of this site?
A Christian debate forum would not have much to debate if only a specific entities view is allowed.

Now don't get me wrong I don't mind if this site is that way and I have just not yet perceived it but, it would have been nice to have full disclosure from the beginning and I would have moved on to a site that is open to all Christians as well as each of their specific views. The fact that I see an admin actively speaking out against a POV that has been openly understood for centuries by the Christian world is a telltale sign to me that such is the case.

I refer you to the rules of the site. While this isn't a Catholic only site it also isn't open season on them here. The same goes for other denominations.
 
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GodsGrace

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Here are the verses:

"(Antichrists) have gone out from among us." 1 John


Hi friend, John says plainly from where Antichrist arises. It is what Spurgeon and every single other Protestant believed about Antichrist until just about 100 years ago when Protestantism began to go insane and start believing Jesuit lies about some future Antichrist at the "last 7 years of tribulation".

1 John 2:18-19 KJV
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."


My replies will be in blue...:

The verse you posted refers to disciples of Christ that were following Him as a teacher but then decided to fall away. In fact, this verse is often used by those who believe in eternal security, this is not referring to the anti-Christ.


Also Paul warns of the same:

1 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Jesus' Second Coming and our Gathering to Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed..."


"Falling away" is literally the Greek "Apostasia" from which we get the English "apostasy" which of course means "turning away from truth".
From where does apostasy originate? In error that exists outside the church or the truth which resides within the church?

"...the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "temple" is from the Greek "naos" which is the same Greek word Paul uses over and over to refer to the church. They may rebuild a temple in Jerusalem and start offering lambs and all that but such as that would be a national middle finger in the face of God by a national rejection of the Lamb of God who was sacrificed 2,000 years ago, and would never be referred to by God or Paul as the "temple of God" - the "temple of God" in which Antichrist arose and now sits is the church.

I learned some years ago that Jesus would not return until the temple as rebuilt.
Do not know the scripture on this.


Paul further states:
Acts 20:29-30 KJV
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

Does this not refer to false doctrine that has, indeed, entered into the Church in this present day? Draw away disciples after them --- this does not sound like the anti-Christ to me. I understand that he will turn the world to himself by making the world believe that he will solve all their prblems.

Click to expand
 

Phoneman777

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So, we have all "fallen for the trap" that lforrest warned us about , just another of the 'RC's v the Protestants' Threads...YAWN....

As much as I admire and respect the great and godly men who have gone before us.
The quote (which I have not checked out yet) "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist.." Is not a scripture!!
Neither was Spurgeon always 100% right...he was just a fallible as any other man or woman. Just because he said it...and just because the quote was in giant size font...does not make it correct or right!!
He did not have 'all truth'. The only one who ever had all truth and was Truth...while walking this earth is The Lord Jesus Himself!!

Let God be The Judge....who are we?!!
Let is get our own life right perfect.

Hi, bygrace, it isn't a "Protestants vs. Catholics" issue, it is a "God's Word VS. Man's Word" issue. It is understandable that Catholic sympathizers take exception to condemnation of their corrupt doctrines, but why do Protestants react that way?

Was not Protestantism founded on the principles of "Sola Gracia", "Sola Scriptura", "Sola Christos" in protest against the very same church?

The same voices raised in defense of Catholic error today would no doubt be raised against Christ when He drove out the money changers, though Christ's and true Protestants' actions were/are a response to the same issue - false religious teaching/practice by religious leaders which were/are leading people to an eternal doom.
 
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Phoneman777

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Wow.....that is some kind of crazy talk!
Aspen, I assure you as a sane man who does not "raise the question" as to the identity of Antichrist, this ain't "crazy talk". If you're a non-Catholic Christian and a member of a mainline Christian denomination that was founded before the 20th century, I guarantee that founders of it believed and taught exactly what Spurgeon believed about Antichrist.
 

Phoneman777

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So what does ANTI mean?
You kind of contradicted yourself with your last explanation.
First you said it means FOR or IN BEHALF OF or IN PLACE OF.
Then you said it literally means FOR CHRIST.
Then you said it also means AGAINST CHRIST.
This is not very clear.
How could I trust anything else you say?

In the Latin and romance languages, ANTI means Against.

Mecca. Do you think Revelation is supposed to be taken LITERALLY!
John is retelling visions he saw.
Where does it say the Anti-Christ will come out of the Christian world?
I think I had already asked this.
Friend, I assure you there's no contradiction. The word "For" in this case doesn't mean "in support of like "I'm for equal rights for women" - it means "in place of", like when I go to Taco Bell and ask to substitute beans for beef...y'know bc Taco Bell ground beef is literally just one grade above dog food beef.
 

Phoneman777

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I agree with lforrest and Aspen...this is just another 'rant' thread, that does nothing but stirs up bad feeling.
It is not educating, entertaining, enlightening or uplifting one bit. Just one more person with a their own personal bent. Sigh. :oops:

I very much doubt that it thrills God's heart.
BG, lest we forget, countless Christians were murdered at the hands of the Papacy like Oxford martyrs Ridley, Latimer, and Cramner, literally BURNED ALIVE AT THE STAKE for refusing to accept the false doctrines of Rome. Were all those millions, too, guilty of just stirring the pot, or does not their sacrifice more than sufficiently warrant an investigation of why they believed as they did?
 
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Phoneman777

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Jesus said we are not to know the day.
He said there will be signs. It seems like those signs have Always been present.
I've never understood what good it does to talk about the end times.
This must be why I've never interested myself in this topic.
Hi again, we must remember that before the book of Revelation gets into the meat of prophecy, it declares "blessed is he that readeth, and heareth, and keepeth the sayings of this book...", which means if we don't study end time issues, we are missing out on a blessing of God, and I can't afford to lose even one blessing from Him. :)
 

Phoneman777

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sorry you speak as one who has his head up his back side.

the papacy claims to be a stand-in in respect to the place Peter held as head of the ministry of Grace hence carried into the church of Rome. believed to be done so by Peter's and Paul's deaths in Rome and then brought to peace with roman authorities via the sign of the Cross to Constantine, never through out its history did a Pope claim to be a replacement for Christ, no matter how corrupted they may have become in their history.

one should note that on the Cross King of the Jews was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin note the most influential languages through most of the "Christian" History except for English after colonization and the KJV available to the public, and the English influence has only been the last few hundred years of over 1800 years.

and again anyone with computer can find that your stuff ain't getting it.

the devil has been deceiving the whole world about the Truth of God since A&E, get with the program will ya.
I speak truth, sir. The Papacy claims to be MORE than just a stand-in. It is well known that Pope Leo XIII claimed that all Popes "hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty". No amount of Catholic apologist propaganda can ever change the fact that the entire institution is corrupt from the horn of its head to the sole of its goat feet.
 
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Phoneman777

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As a Protestant you are your own authority and you can believe ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and still be "right". [/QUOTE said:
Not sure what source you're getting that from. Protestantism was founded on "Sola Scriptura" - "Scripture alone". Not on ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP.......

I doubt many of them would have been so willing to die a martyr's death rather than compromise their beliefs if the Christian system of belief was a fluid as you suggest it is.
 
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Phoneman777

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Could you capsulize what the Catholic Church believes regarding the end times?
Hi, GG, if I may be so bold as to butt in here, all you need to know about the Catholic position is on endtimes is right here:

Futurism aka "Left Behind" theology - created by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in the late 15th century as an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants who discovered from the Bible that the Papacy was the foretold Antichrist to come. Ribera says the church would be "raptured" away, leaving those left behind to endure a seven year period of tribulation, during which the "real Antichrist" would arise, broker a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews, sit enthroned in a rebuilt "temple of God" in Jerusalem, then break the peace treaty after 3 1/2 years into the treaty, which result would be Armageddon and climaxed with the Second Coming. Sound familiar? It should bc that is sadly what just about every PROTESTANT prophecy teacher is teaching today.

Preterism theology - created by Jesuit Luis Alcazar around the same time as Ribera and was also an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants. This idea says the entire Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century, including the rise of Antichrist (claimed to be Roman Emperor Nero or some other sinister person). The Pope commissioned the Jesuits to go to the Bible and come up with another interpretation of Bible prophecy than that of what the Protestants were teaching. We all know what happens when we approach the Bible in order to confirm what we already believe to be truth, rather than humbly coming to God's Word prayerfully asking Him to reveal His truth and help us to accept it no matter where it leads us.
 

Phoneman777

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Click to expand
John's not referring to disciples like those of John 6 who "walked with Him no more" - he's describing in the clearest terms the Antichrists that have already arisen from within the church and then went out in apostasy as forerunners to the coming Antichrist; their character and manner of appearance is exactly like that of the Antichrist John says was to come.

A temple may be rebuilt in Jerusalem, but God would never call His own. Since every aspect of the Temple including the priesthood, rituals, sacrifices, even the construction materials, was representative of Jesus (the roof was made of "ram's skins dyed red" and covered the sprinkled "sins" of the people that had been transferred into the blood of the sacrifice and then dabbed on the horns of the altar of incense, just as Jesus' blood covers our sins), think about this: A rebuilt temple with a new priesthood and sacrificial system would be an official, national, collective "to hell with Your Lamb of God, Lord" and such a temple could never be spoken of as "of God". The temple is the church in which Antichrist would and does sit, "temple" being the Greek "naos" which Paul uses over and over when referring to us, the church.
 
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aspen

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Aspen, I assure you as a sane man who does not "raise the question" as to the identity of Antichrist, this ain't "crazy talk". If you're a non-Catholic Christian and a member of a mainline Christian denomination that was founded before the 20th century, I guarantee that founders of it believed and taught exactly what Spurgeon believed about Antichrist.

Catholic, here
 

Helen

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There are enough Prot v Catholic Threads on this site already...we don't need another one!! :rolleyes: o_O :confused:
We are working to come together...not in being more decisive.
What are you trying to prove that is worth anything edifying or of blessing? :eek:
I hope that you have this thread all to your self.
 

Helen

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As one on the moderators has already said.
What is the purpose of this topic except for protestants to oppose the Catholic church? This forum has enough of that already.
 

GodsGrace

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Hi, bygrace, it isn't a "Protestants vs. Catholics" issue, it is a "God's Word VS. Man's Word" issue. It is understandable that Catholic sympathizers take exception to condemnation of their corrupt doctrines, but why do Protestants react that way?

Was not Protestantism founded on the principles of "Sola Gracia", "Sola Scriptura", "Sola Christos" in protest against the very same church?

The same voices raised in defense of Catholic error today would no doubt be raised against Christ when He drove out the money changers, though Christ's and true Protestants' actions were/are a response to the same issue - false religious teaching/practice by religious leaders which were/are leading people to an eternal doom.
P
I don't know much about eschatology and I'm not Catholic, however, I will not sit by and listen to anyone say that the CC is leading people to their eternal doom.

The CC preaches Christ and how we are to be like Him.
There are many sitting in those pews that are saved,
and many sitting in those pews who are not saved.

Ditto for the Protestant churches.
Are Calvinists not leading persons to their doom?
MORE SO than any other Church?
How. By leading many to believe that salvation will never be for them because God didn't CHOOSE them, so they just give up after some time.

Let's stay on subject.
 

GodsGrace

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Hi again, we must remember that before the book of Revelation gets into the meat of prophecy, it declares "blessed is he that readeth, and heareth, and keepeth the sayings of this book...", which means if we don't study end time issues, we are missing out on a blessing of God, and I can't afford to lose even one blessing from Him. :)
What is the blessing?
We all know the end must come.
In one way or another.
Why does how it comes make such a big difference?
And what is the blessing you feel you have by understanding it?
 

GodsGrace

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Hi, GG, if I may be so bold as to butt in here, all you need to know about the Catholic position is on endtimes is right here:

Futurism aka "Left Behind" theology - created by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in the late 15th century as an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants who discovered from the Bible that the Papacy was the foretold Antichrist to come. Ribera says the church would be "raptured" away, leaving those left behind to endure a seven year period of tribulation, during which the "real Antichrist" would arise, broker a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews, sit enthroned in a rebuilt "temple of God" in Jerusalem, then break the peace treaty after 3 1/2 years into the treaty, which result would be Armageddon and climaxed with the Second Coming. Sound familiar? It should bc that is sadly what just about every PROTESTANT prophecy teacher is teaching today.

Preterism theology - created by Jesuit Luis Alcazar around the same time as Ribera and was also an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants. This idea says the entire Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century, including the rise of Antichrist (claimed to be Roman Emperor Nero or some other sinister person). The Pope commissioned the Jesuits to go to the Bible and come up with another interpretation of Bible prophecy than that of what the Protestants were teaching. We all know what happens when we approach the Bible in order to confirm what we already believe to be truth, rather than humbly coming to God's Word prayerfully asking Him to reveal His truth and help us to accept it no matter where it leads us.
I know that the Catholic Church does NOT believe in the rapture.
...which would be the "left behind" theory.

I believe I saw a movie with that title.
Seems Nick Cage was saved and Flying a plane that DID NOT fall out of the sky.
But all those other planes that DID...
I suppose EVERYONE not saved on those planes just died because God decided to save the saved.

Doesn't sound like the God I know and love.


As for the preterism theology. I like that on. Everything already happened.
Good. That means we're in the 1,000 year reign, extended to 2,000 years.
And where is the lamb lying with the lion?
Or am I just totally off course?
 

GodsGrace

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Hi, GG, if I may be so bold as to butt in here, all you need to know about the Catholic position is on endtimes is right here:

Futurism aka "Left Behind" theology - created by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in the late 15th century as an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants who discovered from the Bible that the Papacy was the foretold Antichrist to come. Ribera says the church would be "raptured" away, leaving those left behind to endure a seven year period of tribulation, during which the "real Antichrist" would arise, broker a peace treaty between Arabs and Jews, sit enthroned in a rebuilt "temple of God" in Jerusalem, then break the peace treaty after 3 1/2 years into the treaty, which result would be Armageddon and climaxed with the Second Coming. Sound familiar? It should bc that is sadly what just about every PROTESTANT prophecy teacher is teaching today.

Preterism theology - created by Jesuit Luis Alcazar around the same time as Ribera and was also an attempt to deflect the accusations of Protestants. This idea says the entire Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century, including the rise of Antichrist (claimed to be Roman Emperor Nero or some other sinister person). The Pope commissioned the Jesuits to go to the Bible and come up with another interpretation of Bible prophecy than that of what the Protestants were teaching. We all know what happens when we approach the Bible in order to confirm what we already believe to be truth, rather than humbly coming to God's Word prayerfully asking Him to reveal His truth and help us to accept it no matter where it leads us.
P.S.

Forgot to mention that many invent or preach different ideas and theories.
This does not mean that it's the OFFICIAL teaching of the Catholic Church.

Luckily for the CC it does have a magesterium that holds its doctrine together.
I sometimes wish we had something similar due to all the different doctrine we're able to come up with.