Christ as the firstborn
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Gentlemen,
I love you. No, I love you more. But not as much as I do. Much more than you do. ...
One might offer some advice as to the social discomfort of this ~love fest~. So in the spirit of any teenager to their embraced parents: Get A Room!
:unsure:
The Master taught where these perverse thoughts stem from.
In your ignorance you just confirmed Mark 7:21.
This is why I love the Master...he is always right and his judgments are always pure.
What does this say about your sickness BibleScribe?
You are a profane man!
Insight
Moving on and away from the filth of the flesh as manifested by BibleScribe (he should be stripped of this name!) let us lift our minds higher!
There are certain words used in the NT that are synonyms with "atonement"
All of these expressions reveal God, the Father, as the Determinant Highest Council, upholding His purpose, justice and mercy.
Of “Ransom” it is said:
"The Son of Man came not to be ministered unto but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45).
"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5,6),
(RV "the testimony to be borne in its own times"), by the apostles (See and compare 2 Tim 2:8).
Of redemption the word "ransom” is a reduced form.
Believers are "justified” freely by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). "Of him (God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us (apostles and brethren) wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30). See also Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14.
It is not long before these deeper themes begin to reveal the Work of a Supreme God and not a multiplicity of gods.
Insight
There are certain words used in the NT that are synonyms with "atonement"
- reconciliation
- ransom
- redemption
- propitiation
- justification
All of these expressions reveal God, the Father, as the Determinant Highest Council, upholding His purpose, justice and mercy.
Of “Ransom” it is said:
"The Son of Man came not to be ministered unto but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45).
"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5,6),
(RV "the testimony to be borne in its own times"), by the apostles (See and compare 2 Tim 2:8).
Of redemption the word "ransom” is a reduced form.
Believers are "justified” freely by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24). "Of him (God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us (apostles and brethren) wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30). See also Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14.
It is not long before these deeper themes begin to reveal the Work of a Supreme God and not a multiplicity of gods.
Insight
Oh but Insight, Jesus is clearly said to be “THE MIGHTY GOD” and “THE EVERLASTING FATHER”!
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
How can you possibly say he is not God !!!
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
How can you possibly say he is not God !!!
Oh but Insight, Jesus is clearly said to be “THE MIGHTY GOD” and “THE EVERLASTING FATHER”!
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
How can you possibly say he is not God !!!
Ah yes the work of reconciliation of sons was prophesied of old.
But who placed these names in the son?
The "shall be's" must be cause for alarm!
Right?
BibleScribe
Member
To All,
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
Vengle, on 16 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
... Jesus is the first creation of God and the last creation of God ...
Vengle, on 16 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
... it honestly amazes me that you do not know that Jesus is not God but God's Son; a creation just as we ...
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
... just because two agree upon something. And such is the case in the above "love-fest", where both agree that Jesus is not GOD, but simply a created being.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
Ah yes the work of reconciliation of sons was prophesied of old.
But who placed these names in the son?
The "shall be's" must be cause for alarm!
Right?
I always get alarmed when I ignore everything else and focus on one or two verses to support a theory like the Trinity. :lol:
Especially because if my flock found out the simple things I have been hiding from them, not only might they abandon me but they may even tar and feather me for having lulled them to sleep and deceived them.
But I have it all planned out. When I stand before Christ I will just say I did not know!
To All,
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
That's the last direct creation of God BS, all things then being created by and through Jesus empowered of the Father. Jesus became the mediator of all creation as God's first offspring. That is why when God made man in their image Adam was created by God but all Adam's offspring came of his loins. It images the reality of God and his Son.
Is that kind of stuff the best you can do? :lol:
I mean who cannot see the lack of spiritual depth in your post? You are shaming yourself.
This ignore function is great.
I can see BS has posted something??? No doubt more of the same profanities, but I have no interest in reading it!
I believe God does this to us when we are in a similair state of mind to BibleScribe. Jer 11:14
Insight
Yes, he is really tormented. He is weeping and gnashing his teeth.
It is just his attempt to divert the conversation of truth as he is unable to refute it in any way.
The Scriptures bring to light his actions.
Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour. Pro 14:9
This verse highlights the attitude of a profane man, Like Cain who mocked at the "bloodshed" offering of Able. Like Nomad who went out and it was dark. BibleScribe and his profane comment and error will eventually drive him away from the presence of the Almighty. Not that we would have it so! They cannot find favour with God, us or the truth.
BibleScribe treats sin as a vehicle to mock others and what should he mock?
The favour we are finding in the Word.
Prov 14:9 has also been revealed before us!
If only he would go from the sin (red) to the blue (righteousness)
Insight
Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour. Pro 14:9
This verse highlights the attitude of a profane man, Like Cain who mocked at the "bloodshed" offering of Able. Like Nomad who went out and it was dark. BibleScribe and his profane comment and error will eventually drive him away from the presence of the Almighty. Not that we would have it so! They cannot find favour with God, us or the truth.
BibleScribe treats sin as a vehicle to mock others and what should he mock?
The favour we are finding in the Word.
Prov 14:9 has also been revealed before us!
If only he would go from the sin (red) to the blue (righteousness)
Insight
OK. Let's move forward despite his interference.
Let's talk about Isaiah 9: 6 a bit more in depth.
Jesus became the "everlasting father" corresponding to what Adam would have been had he not sinned. That is a part of Adam being said to be, "the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14)
And it is a part of why Jesus is called "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45)
For this reason: 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
See what I mean when i say that they hide the simple things?
What I wrote in an earlier post relates:
"That's the last direct creation of God BS, all things then being created by and through Jesus empowered of the Father. Jesus became the mediator of all creation as God's first offspring. That is why when God made man in their image Adam was created by God but all Adam's offspring came of his loins. It images the reality of God and his Son."
Genesis 1:26a "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ..."
They refuse to look at the foreshadows that God has provided.
Let's talk about Isaiah 9: 6 a bit more in depth.
Jesus became the "everlasting father" corresponding to what Adam would have been had he not sinned. That is a part of Adam being said to be, "the figure of him that was to come." (Romans 5:14)
And it is a part of why Jesus is called "the last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45)
For this reason: 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
See what I mean when i say that they hide the simple things?
What I wrote in an earlier post relates:
"That's the last direct creation of God BS, all things then being created by and through Jesus empowered of the Father. Jesus became the mediator of all creation as God's first offspring. That is why when God made man in their image Adam was created by God but all Adam's offspring came of his loins. It images the reality of God and his Son."
Genesis 1:26a "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ..."
They refuse to look at the foreshadows that God has provided.
BibleScribe
Member
... and for a refresher:
To All,
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
To All,
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
Vengle, on 16 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
... Jesus is the first creation of God and the last creation of God ...
Vengle, on 16 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:
... it honestly amazes me that you do not know that Jesus is not God but God's Son; a creation just as we ...
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
... just because two agree upon something. And such is the case in the above "love-fest", where both agree that Jesus is not GOD, but simply a created being.
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
The irony with these verses Vengle is their primary fulfilment is applied to a human being first of all.
It was applied to Hezekiah himself in the initial fulfilment of the "child" in Isa 7:14, and the "little child" in Isa 11.
Of course its secondary fulfilment is in Jesus. Of course primarly this order is reversed when when consider Hezekiahs life could not exist without foretelling of Jesus Christ
So few understand the context but are quick to run away with doctrines of gods.
It was applied to Hezekiah himself in the initial fulfilment of the "child" in Isa 7:14, and the "little child" in Isa 11.
Of course its secondary fulfilment is in Jesus. Of course primarly this order is reversed when when consider Hezekiahs life could not exist without foretelling of Jesus Christ
So few understand the context but are quick to run away with doctrines of gods.
... and for a refresher:
To All,
Please allow the doctrine which is being espoused by these two individuals as follows:
.
And so these two present their beliefs in contradiction to Scripture, but in mutual assurance with each other.
So the question should be to any who might fall prey to this seemingly intellectual and concerted agreement, -- Does Scripture really say that Jesus is a "created" being? And should we be happy with such a ~well accepted~ doctrine?
Of course anyone with an ounce of foundation would immediately reject this an a false doctrine, -- but an unfounded Christian might fall prey to such distortions of TRUTH. Thus my repeated comment and admonition, and subsequent homepage reference:
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
BibleScribe
BibleScribe you are violating forum rules by reposting your clearly heckling posts obviously for the purpose of disrupting. Either begin reasoning together with us like a mature Christian or at least cease and desist your trolling.
Vengle,
Many draw from these verses the coming Messiah, which is so clearly obvious, so much so many here fail to acknowledge the original history and their fulfilment is not always understood.
It is worth looking into their primary lessons as partialy fulfilled in the days of Hezekiah and Sennacherib. (Strongly
Recommend Trinitarian believers to do this!)
Like BS many do not desire to see a "bigger picture" or enter the Word to discuss its worth.
Context will help all see the beauty of these passages.
Insight
Many draw from these verses the coming Messiah, which is so clearly obvious, so much so many here fail to acknowledge the original history and their fulfilment is not always understood.
It is worth looking into their primary lessons as partialy fulfilled in the days of Hezekiah and Sennacherib. (Strongly
Recommend Trinitarian believers to do this!)
Like BS many do not desire to see a "bigger picture" or enter the Word to discuss its worth.
Context will help all see the beauty of these passages.
Insight
The irony with these verses Vengle is their primary fulfilment is applied to a human being first of all.
It was applied to Hezekiah himself in the initial fulfilment of the "child" in Isa 7:14, and the "little child" in Isa 11.
Of course its secondary fulfilment is in Jesus. Of course primarly this order is reversed when when consider Hezekiahs life could not exist without foretelling of Jesus Christ
So few understand the context but are quick to run away with doctrines of gods.
Amen to that. But many simply are imitating their teachers and they know no better. Fear of being mislead is often used on them (but these days people are getting tired of it) as a tool to control them and make them afraid to look further.
Vengle,
Many draw from these verses the coming Messiah, which is so clearly obvious, so much so many here fail to acknowledge the original history and their fulfilment is not always understood.
It is worth looking into their primary lessons as partialy fulfilled in the days of Hezekiah and Sennacherib. (Strongly
Recommend Trinitarian believers to do this!)
Like BS many do not desire to see a "bigger picture" or enter the Word to discuss its worth.
Context will help all see the beauty of these passages.
Insight
Yes, we have the interplay of God himself referring to the kings as gods in this and Jesus is among those kings the only mighty god.
It does not refer to Jesus as Almighty God and that would be a demotion to call Yahweh simply "The Mighty God".
John 10:34-35 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"
Consider the words of Isaiah which show us a scene of complete tranquillity, when all the savagery of the beasts of the field are removed:
"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isa 11:6-9).
What I like about this passage is how it demonstrates how one day man will reclaim dominion over the earth, and his subjugation of the animal kingdom (Gen 1:28 ; Psa 8).
All can see this is speaking to a future Christ and his victory over sin and death. Having removed the enmity in his flesh which held him condemned to death all his days Heb 2:14,15.
How?
Christ is the son born of the virgin in Isa 7:14; he is also the child born "unto us" in Isa 9:6.
Was God to become a suckling child?
Don’t be foolish!
This child would have a mother, though a sinner herself, nonetheless a marvel of spirituality and virtue. And we finally know this flesh and blood child began to die as he was born into a dreadful age .
He was eventually weaned (Isa 11:8) and grew in favour with his Father and man.
Not a God-man as many here believe but a unique child which saw Yahweh become personally involved in creation for the first time through a Son.
Amen.
"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isa 11:6-9).
What I like about this passage is how it demonstrates how one day man will reclaim dominion over the earth, and his subjugation of the animal kingdom (Gen 1:28 ; Psa 8).
All can see this is speaking to a future Christ and his victory over sin and death. Having removed the enmity in his flesh which held him condemned to death all his days Heb 2:14,15.
How?
Christ is the son born of the virgin in Isa 7:14; he is also the child born "unto us" in Isa 9:6.
Was God to become a suckling child?
Don’t be foolish!
This child would have a mother, though a sinner herself, nonetheless a marvel of spirituality and virtue. And we finally know this flesh and blood child began to die as he was born into a dreadful age .
He was eventually weaned (Isa 11:8) and grew in favour with his Father and man.
Not a God-man as many here believe but a unique child which saw Yahweh become personally involved in creation for the first time through a Son.
Amen.
Consider the words of Isaiah which show us a scene of complete tranquillity, when all the savagery of the beasts of the field are removed:
"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea" (Isa 11:6-9).
What I like about this passage is how it demonstrates how one day man will reclaim dominion over the earth, and his subjugation of the animal kingdom (Gen 1:28 ; Psa 8).
All can see this is speaking to a future Christ and his victory over sin and death. Having removed the enmity in his flesh which held him condemned to death all his days Heb 2:14,15.
How?
Christ is the son born of the virgin in Isa 7:14; he is also the child born "unto us" in Isa 9:6.
Was God to become a suckling child?
Don’t be foolish!
This child would have a mother, though a sinner herself, nonetheless a marvel of spirituality and virtue. And we finally know this flesh and blood child began to die as he was born into a dreadful age .
He was eventually weaned (Isa 11:8) and grew in favour with his Father and man.
Not a God-man as many here believe but a unique child which saw Yahweh become personally involved in creation for the first time through a Son.
Amen.
Amen, and of that scene Isaiah 11:1-5 lays out similar detail concerning Christ as at Isaiah 9:6
Where did Jesus get his wisdom?
Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD (Yahweh) shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Yahweh);
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD (Yahweh): and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
[sup][sup]There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse[/sup]
[sup]Why out of Jesse? [/sup]
[sup]And why before David?[/sup]
[sup]Notice how the word constantly reminds us of his earthly, natural heritage. [/sup][/sup]
[sup] [/sup]
[sup] [/sup]
[sup]Why out of Jesse? [/sup]
[sup]And why before David?[/sup]
[sup]Notice how the word constantly reminds us of his earthly, natural heritage. [/sup][/sup]
[sup] [/sup]
[sup] [/sup]
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