Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

[Jay Ross]

Divine nature cannot sin or die!

If we are talking about people and the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, then this claim is untrue.

 

[Hiddenthings]

If we are talking about people and the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, then this claim is untrue.

Remains true until proven otherwise, and so far, no one has presented even the slightest argument to challenge it.

 

[Jay Ross]

Remains true until proven otherwise, and so far, no one has presented even the slightest argument to challenge it.

It depends on whether or not we consider a heavenly host entity, i.e. and angel, has a divine nature or not?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Matthias,

a thread on the Christadelphian belief and teaching about the devil and Satan, using a Christadelphian source.

Christadelphians often quote Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14 when considering this subject. I would be interested in your exposition of these verses. One question that arises is: Why is there no mention of the Devil in Romans 7 and 8 when Paul deals with the struggle against sin?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

Greetings Matthias,

Christadelphians often quote Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14 when considering this subject. I would be interested in your exposition of these verses. One question that arises is: Why is there no mention of the Devil in Romans 7 and 8 when Paul deals with the struggle against sin?

Kind regards
Trevor

The Christadelphians have some sound doctrine. I don’t believe this particular doctrine is one of them. Shouting that people who disagree with this doctrine on Satan and the devil are pagans isn’t going to persuade, and shouldn’t, very many.

Paul needs to mention the devil in every passage where he speaks about the struggle against sin?

An analogy, for your consideration. When Paul (or Jesus, or any of the other apostles) mentions “the gospel“ is it necessary for him (and for them) to say in every passage that it is the gospel of the kingdom which he (and they) are speaking about?

 

[Matthias]

@TrevorHL it was suggested to me by a Christadelphian in another thread (the thread which led me to start this one for him so that my thread on the gospel of the kingdom wouldn’t be derailed) that paganism (not a personal being) is what (not who) tempts us.

Do you think Jesus (Hebrews 4:15) was tempted by paganism?

 

[Matthias]

At the other end of the scale we have this:



My position is that both ends tip the scale out of balance.

 

[JustMe]

Peter & Christ both teach the Saints and Angels will share divine nature.

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4

Divine nature cannot sin or die!

I meant to say "..God's nature ' and not God's human nature of course in my last post. God does not have a human nature.

So having partaken and still feeding off the divinity or the nature of God as a believer, we also cannot die either, today or tomorrow?

 

[Hiddenthings]

It depends on whether or not we consider a heavenly host entity, i.e. and angel, has a divine nature or not?

Heavenly Host have Divine Nature and therefore impossible to sin! This idea is based on incorrect interpration of two passages in Scripture.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I meant to say "..God's nature ' and not God's human nature of course in my last post. God does not have a human nature.

So having partaken and still feeding off the divinity or the nature of God as a believer, we also cannot die either, today or tomorrow?

God (singular) alone has immortality - all created beings are reliant on God for Life including Christ and the angels.

 

[Jay Ross]

Heavenly Host have Divine Nature and therefore impossible to sin! This idea is based on incorrect interpration of two passages in Scripture.

Well, let's have the two passages in scripture that I am supposedly incorrectly interpretating. At the moment with the references, I can only guess the reason for your statement.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

Paul needs to mention the devil in every passage where he speaks about the struggle against sin?

My personal assessment is that Romans 7 and 8 cover the subject thoroughly and this lines up with my own understanding and experience. I am not sure of when and how you would consider that the Devil is participating in your personal life.

Romans 7 and 8 have been of interest to me over many years and I have come to a reasonable assessment in my mind what this is teaching, and this is especially so with Romans 8:3. You may not be aware, but there used to be a wide range of opinions in Australia on the subject of the Atonement and some of these differences were evident by a range of views on Romans 8:3. These differences have been to some extent resolved by the visit and teaching by John Carter in the late 1950s and the Australian Unity Booklet. I like to test any exposition by considering what they have written on Romans 8:3, and then possibly Romans 3:21-31.

it was suggested to me by a Christadelphian in another thread ... that paganism (not a personal being) is what (not who) tempts us.
Do you think Jesus (Hebrews 4:15) was tempted by paganism?

That seems to be a mix-up of ideas. No, I consider that we are tempted by our own lusts James 1:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Matthias]

“But who was the devil who thus busied himself to subvert Jesus from the path of obedience? The answer is, it is impossible to say positively who he was. As in the case of Job’s Satan, we can only be positive as to who he was not. Various probabilities are suggested by the circumstances of the temptation according to the phase in which they are contemplated. Some think the devil in the case was Christ’s own inclinations but this is untenable in view of the statement that ‘When the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season’ (Luke IV 13.).”

(Robert Roberts, Christendom Astray From The Bible, p. 144)

Christendom Astray From The Bible : Robert Roberts : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book Source: Digital Library of India Item 2015.506999dc.contributor.author: Robert Robertsdc.coverage.spatial: londondc.date.accessioned:...

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Roberts is a key figure in Christadelphian history. (See below.) He isn’t sure who the devil was in the temptation of the Messiah but he is certain that the devil was an external person. In other words, the temptation of Jesus was from without, not from within; Jesus wasn’t talking to himself in the wilderness.

Robert Roberts (Christadelphian) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jericho]

Divine nature cannot sin - God's nature!

Do you believe angels have the divine nature? If so, what about humans? We were created a little lower than the angels (Psa 8:5). If we can sin, why not angels? I would suggest the ability to sin is not based upon the divine nature but free will. Anyone that has free will can sin. Only God cannot sin.

Daniel Chapter 10 is showing you how the Divine Angels work in the Kingdoms of Men. Daniel had witnessed powerful rulers rise and fall such as Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and his co-regent son, the indulgent Belshazzar.

Daniel 10 describes the principalities behind the earthly rulers. Paul makes it clear those principalities are not human: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Eph 6:12)

Aside from Revelation 12—which is highly symbolic and often misapplied—where else in the Bible are we given a clear account of heavenly rebel angels? Is there a backstory that provides all the details Christians commonly attribute to this creature today?

Scripture itself says so unless you turn everything into symbolism, in which case, it can mean whatever you want it to mean. But okay, let's look at Psalm 82:

1 God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods (elohim).
2 How long will you (plural) judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, “You (plural) are gods (elohim),
And all of you (plural) are children (sons) of the Most High (beney Elyon).
7 But you (plural) shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise (the command is singular), O God, judge the earth;
For You (singular) shall inherit all nations.

Here God (the supreme Elohim) is judging a council of wicked divine beings. They are not called messengers (mal'akh), so there's no mistaking them for humans, but elohim. Elohim is a word usually associated with God but can also denote anything of supernatural origins, including demons (Deu 32:17), disembodied spirits (1Sa 28:13), and angels (Psa 8:5). Moreover, God has never presided over a council of humans that governed the nations of the earth. So, that leaves only one possibility: they are divine beings who sinned.

Peter draws upon examples from Israel's history to illustrate how seductive and destructive internal corrupting influences can be. Peter makes it clear that these internal threats are often far more difficult to resist than external trials or persecution. This chapter closely parallels the Epistle of Jude, as Peter foresaw the very conditions that Jude later witnessed unfolding.

It is well established that both Peter and Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch. So, you may not believe in fallen angel theology, but apparently they did.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Jericho,

Here God (the supreme Elohim) is judging a council of wicked divine beings. They are not called messengers (mal'akh), so there's no mistaking them for humans, but elohim.

I understand that the Elohim of Psalm 82:6 are the unjust Judges and the Judges appointed by Moses were addressed as Elohim in Exodus 21:6 because they represented God and acted on his behalf. But the Judges mentioned by the Psalmist were unjust and ready to be judged as was the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Hiddenthings]

“But who was the devil who thus busied himself to subvert Jesus from the path of obedience? The answer is, it is impossible to say positively who he was. As in the case of Job’s Satan, we can only be positive as to who he was not. Various probabilities are suggested by the circumstances of the temptation according to the phase in which they are contemplated. Some think the devil in the case was Christ’s own inclinations but this is untenable in view of the statement that ‘When the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season’ (Luke IV 13.).”

(Robert Roberts, Christendom Astray From The Bible, p. 144)

Christendom Astray From The Bible : Robert Roberts : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book Source: Digital Library of India Item 2015.506999dc.contributor.author: Robert Robertsdc.coverage.spatial: londondc.date.accessioned:...

archive.org

Roberts is a key figure in Christadelphian history. (See below.) He isn’t sure who the devil was in the temptation of the Messiah but he is certain that the devil was an external person. In other words, the temptation of Jesus was from without, not from within; Jesus wasn’t talking to himself in the wilderness.

Robert Roberts (Christadelphian) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This thread is proving extremely challenging for those seeking evidence for such a being, especially in the absence of supporting texts.

 

[JustMe]

This thread is proving extremely challenging for those seeking evidence for such a being, especially in the absence of supporting texts.

Fair statement...

I'm torn between the evil, the sin, the devil possessed by a human being and an external being. And then when demonic beings or spirits get into the act, it really becomes a very difficult subject to discuss, as there is evidence they are external beings. And then the devil and demons are different entities aren't they? One external and the other at least internal to all fallen human beings because of Adam.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Fair statement...

I'm torn between the evil, the sin, the devil possessed by a human being and an external being. And then when demonic beings or spirits get into the act, it really becomes a very difficult subject to discuss, as there is evidence they are external beings. And then the devil and demons are different entities aren't they? One external and the other at least internal to all fallen human beings because of Adam.

The challenge lies in the terminology, as there are so many different descriptors for sin and evil.

 

[JustMe]

The challenge lies in the terminology, as there are so many different descriptors for sin and evil.

The concept and personage or entity call the satan or the devil seems either to be a permanent external tester and accuser of anyone's relationship with God and yet the satan could also be a built-in tester within all of us, in all fallen men to reveal our relationship with God at any time. Peter once was accused by Jesus of having a devil within him as his faith was weak at that time. There was no external invisible entity or fallen angel attacking his senses, mind and heart at that time, it was all Peter doing it. And anyway how can a non-omnipresent fallen angel be everywhere with everyone at one time? Some with say 'he' delegated these accusatory duties to his army of demons around the world.

That is not an acceptable answer. I believe God allows this accusatory evil force to come to life whenever he wishes, within each and every one of us. And this also included the human being we call Jesus, our savior.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There was no external invisible entity or fallen angel attacking his senses, mind and heart at that time, it was all Peter doing it. And anyway how can a non-omnipresent fallen angel be everywhere with everyone at one time? Some with say 'he' delegated these accusatory duties to his army of demons around the world.

That is not an acceptable answer. I believe God allows this accusatory evil force to come to life whenever he wishes, within each and every one of us. And this also included the human being we call Jesus, our savior.

The more you examine this belief, the clearer it becomes that it’s impossible for immortals, those possessing the divine nature to sin.

Yet whenever someone tries to justify the opposite, they almost always turn to Revelation, the final book of the Bible.

If even well informed believers like Matthias, who is far from lacking in discernment can be deceived, what chance do those with less knowledge have against such a powerful deception?

The carnal mind has produced so many heresies that Christianity has become almost unrecognizable.