Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan
- Thread starter Matthias
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I think the pastor does a credible job. It will not persuade a Christadelphian.
It should, however, provide reassurance for those who aren’t dead set on personifying the devil / the Satan in order to avoid acknowledging the truth about “the serpent of old.“
Read to the end to see his conclusion . 
The Devil in the Details of the Old Testament: Is Satan in the Hebrew Bible?
Is the serpent in Genesis 3 just a snake or Satan? Does the Hebrew refer to "the satan" or "Satan"? And does it make a difference? Let's take a look at the Old Testament, early Jewish literature, and the New Testament for the answers.
www.1517.org
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
You're having a hard time with this, Matthias? You started the thread, yet provided no real evidence, just a string of empty pleadings.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I'm not disregarding it, Dak. I've shared insights with many, but those who simply copy and paste without truly understanding the material don’t deserve detailed responses. They’re just passive followers who haven’t put in the effort to deeply analyze and grasp the meaning behind these truths.
Okay, so the challenge for you is to show an evil divine being and be able to define it.
Men who have fallen from God's righteousness.
Wow, you need a lot of teaching Dak.
The phrase "certain men crept in unawares" refers to the idea of subtly inserting oneself into a situation, entering by stealth. In Greek, the term conveys the notion of "insinuating oneself" or "settling in alongside." It imply's a quiet, hidden entry rather than a public one. The idea is that these individuals sneak in through a back door, concealing their true intentions. Paul uses a similar term in Galatians 2:4, describing "false brethren unawares brought in," who secretly infiltrated to spy on the liberty of believers in Christ Jesus. Read and study 2 Peter 2:1, which explores how false teachers subtly inserted themselves into the church.
Everything you have written so far only supports men - human beings only.
I'm sorry Dak but this was a major fail on your part to prove divine angels can sin and did sin and deceive people in the earth.
Today, I was reading Paul's trails and sufferings and do you know he doesn't mention this creature once!
Read this and identify the satan (adverary being referred to)
2 Corinthians 12:7-10 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Paul having expressed his desire to remove this thorn in his flesh what does he proceed to list?
10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
No mention of this being at all only everything which relates to the his weakness in the flesh and those things which people (human beings) afflicted him with.
Dak, surely you can see I'm trying to help you here and all you are giving me is proof that this creature doesn't exist.
Both Paul and Jude agree.
The term "ungodly men" (Jude 4) appears several times in the epistle and is translated from the Greek word asebes, which refers to individuals who are openly defiant toward God. This goes beyond simply missing the mark (which is the usual meaning of sin). Asebes expresses a willful rejection of God and His commands, as opposed to the godliness described in 2 Peter 1:3-6. These ungodly men were not merely irreligious; they actively opposed and contradicted God's expectations (as seen in verse 15). It’s important to note that Jude is referring to individuals within the church! not those outside in the world. This illustrates the dangerous state that can result from false teachings or a lack of understanding of God’s principles, leading those who do not have a full knowledge of Yahweh and Jesus Christ into such a rebellious position.
Last edited:
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
@dak, have you ever been asked to prove the existence of this creature during your journey? Most people haven’t, which is why they often get frustrated or upset, like Aunty Jane in another thread.
There was one question that irritated her so much, she ended up walking away.
Over the years, I've found that very few people have ever had to defend it, as it’s often taken for granted. But when they do try, they quickly realize that the ideas and backstory they’ve held in their minds aren’t actually found in the Bible.
Genesis 3:1
Why would God create an animal described as more cunning (and able to speak) than the rest?
The answer exposes a serious inconsistency in their theological framework
Why God made an animal capable of speech and moral deception?
Why doesn’t the text (of the Bible) clarify any supernatural involvement if that’s what it supposedly means?
Christians inherit the "fallen angel/devil" story from church tradition, not direct Scripture.
I think you’ll notice that the constant search for the origin story continues, and while some, like @Matthias, try to dismiss its importance, many remain unconvinced by this (his) undisciplined approach to the Word.
There was one question that irritated her so much, she ended up walking away.
Over the years, I've found that very few people have ever had to defend it, as it’s often taken for granted. But when they do try, they quickly realize that the ideas and backstory they’ve held in their minds aren’t actually found in the Bible.
Genesis 3:1
Why would God create an animal described as more cunning (and able to speak) than the rest?
The answer exposes a serious inconsistency in their theological framework
Why God made an animal capable of speech and moral deception?
Why doesn’t the text (of the Bible) clarify any supernatural involvement if that’s what it supposedly means?
Christians inherit the "fallen angel/devil" story from church tradition, not direct Scripture.
I think you’ll notice that the constant search for the origin story continues, and while some, like @Matthias, try to dismiss its importance, many remain unconvinced by this (his) undisciplined approach to the Word.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
If you stick with it, Talons, I’m confident this examination will reveal a major fallacy, one that could change the understanding for many in this forum.Read to the end to see his conclusion .
The Devil in the Details of the Old Testament: Is Satan in the Hebrew Bible?
Is the serpent in Genesis 3 just a snake or Satan? Does the Hebrew refer to "the satan" or "Satan"? And does it make a difference? Let's take a look at the Old Testament, early Jewish literature, and the New Testament for the answers.www.1517.org
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
That bolded bit certainly wasn't the belief of the early church. They believed in a number of different classes and types of angels - cherubim, seraphim, thrones, powers, principalities, archangels, etc. Some celestial, some terrestrial, and some with a foot in both.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
You're not wrong here Wick, however my comment is in relation to the teaching of Christ on angels. The context of my remarks were obedient angels.
Here is a list of all the verses where Jesus speaks to angels (in general) concerning their work, nature etc
- Matthew 4:11
- Matthew 18:10
- Matthew 22:30
- Matthew 26:53
- Luke 15:10
- Luke 16:22
- John 1:51
- John 14:30
- Mark 13:27
- Mark 8:38
Does your answer concern you?
dak
Well-Known Member
- Feb 9, 2013
- 1,457
- 188
- 63
- Faith
- Other Faith
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
You've created a straw man here by assuming that I believe many things which I have not said I believe. For example, were have I said that I believe that the Devil or the Satan is a divine being? But aside from all the falsehoods you keep trying to pin on me, the OP seems to want to shut down further discussion with you, so then, again, nice chatting.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
TrevorHL
Active Member
- Jul 17, 2024
- 617
- 174
- 43
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
- Gender
- Male
Greetings again Matthias and Greetings David in NJ,
The only Christadelphian publication that I am aware of that specifically considers the subject of Demons is the 16 page booklet by John Allfree titled Demon Possession. I read this yesterday evening and consider it a reasonable exposition of the overall subject, even though as usual I may not have absorbed all that he said or fully agreed with everything. Near the start he lists four popular different views of the origin of demons, and the third option is the one advocated by @David in NJ and with each option he gives a brief reply and in this case we claim that the sons of God in Genesis 6:1 are the descendants of Seth, while the daughters of men are the descendants of Cain.
I have a copy of the Third Edition 1998, and he states that this edition has considerable additions and changes as a result of some feedback from the earlier editions. It is interesting that towards the end he specifically mentions some interaction with the Restoration Fellowship. As a result, if you have access to an earlier edition, this may not have the specific footnote relevant to your question. Again I am acting more in my role of my Ecclesia’s Librarian, passing on this information, rather than fully understanding or digesting what he has written and as such I am not fully endorsing what he states, though I did find his comments very interesting.
James no doubt is referring to events as this in Mark 5 where clearly the demon possessed man was afraid of Jesus (see the parallel record In Matthew 8:29) whom he proclaimed as the “Son of the most high God” Mark 5:7. He thus both believed and trembled.
The following points may be helpful:
Trevor
The only Christadelphian publication that I am aware of that specifically considers the subject of Demons is the 16 page booklet by John Allfree titled Demon Possession. I read this yesterday evening and consider it a reasonable exposition of the overall subject, even though as usual I may not have absorbed all that he said or fully agreed with everything. Near the start he lists four popular different views of the origin of demons, and the third option is the one advocated by @David in NJ and with each option he gives a brief reply and in this case we claim that the sons of God in Genesis 6:1 are the descendants of Seth, while the daughters of men are the descendants of Cain.
I have a copy of the Third Edition 1998, and he states that this edition has considerable additions and changes as a result of some feedback from the earlier editions. It is interesting that towards the end he specifically mentions some interaction with the Restoration Fellowship. As a result, if you have access to an earlier edition, this may not have the specific footnote relevant to your question. Again I am acting more in my role of my Ecclesia’s Librarian, passing on this information, rather than fully understanding or digesting what he has written and as such I am not fully endorsing what he states, though I did find his comments very interesting.
Footnote 17 Page 13: It is sometimes asked, is not the real existence of demons proved by James’ statement, “The devils also believe and tremble” James 2:19?
James no doubt is referring to events as this in Mark 5 where clearly the demon possessed man was afraid of Jesus (see the parallel record In Matthew 8:29) whom he proclaimed as the “Son of the most high God” Mark 5:7. He thus both believed and trembled.
The following points may be helpful:
- There is frequently employed in the Bible a figure of speech where one name or noun is used instead of another. E.g. Job 32:7: “Days should speak, and multitude of words should speak wisdom”. In the verse clearly “days” means “men who have days”, and “years” means “men who have years”. By the same figure, in “the devils also believe and tremble”, devils stands for “men who have devils”.
- Luke 11:14 says “Jesus was casting out a devil and it was dumb”. Here the demon is said to be dumb but in fact it was the man who was dumb for “when the devil had gone out the dumb spake”.
- Luke 4:41 reads, “Demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, Thou art the Christ, the Son of God”. Again, bearing in mind the above, a common sense reading of the passage is that when the demons were cast out the people declared Jesus to be the Son of God.
Trevor
Last edited:
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Without their healing they were unable to go from faith to works which is James context. It's a wonderful lesson which draws on the healings of Christ and their release to serve with a working faith.
This was a good post Trevor!
Thanks
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Lucifer is history, he doesn't exist anymore. Satan does ... for now.
But sure, I'll gladly share the roots of this theology:
ISAIAH 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" KJV
from Hebrew ,halal, transliterated helel, in Greek, lucifer
Morning star, day star, shining one
God is speaking to angel, a person and calls him morning star, Halal or Lucifer in the Greek.
Lucifer's name was changed to Satan. He was no longer a bright morning star.
These are English translations that use Lucifer:
BRG
DARBY
DRA Douay-Rheims 1899
GNV 1599 Geneva
JUB Jubilee Bible
TLB. Living Bible
MEV Modern English
KJV
NKJV
WYC Wycliffe
Job 38:7 says "the stars sang together". This is poetic imagery describing angels who in many scriptures are singing. LUCIFER was THE MORNING STAR. The morning star in our sky is the brightest, so figuratively, Lucifer was the brighter shining angel.
LUCIFER SINS AND IS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN AND IS DESTROYED, stripped of his position as a Cherub, stripped of his beauty, transformed into a serpent, dragon, Satan.
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”Ezek. 28:12-19
These verses also support this event:
• Revelation 12:7-9:
This passage describes a war in heaven where a dragon, identified as Satan and the Devil, is cast out of heaven along with his angels.
• Matthew 25:41:
This verse mentions Satan being cast out of heaven with his angels, reinforcing the idea of a fallen angel.
We only see a few verses in Scripture where Satan is talking: (Gen. 3; Job 1; John 8:44; John 10:10; Matthew 4); but many verses tell us what his purpose is, to tempt, lie and deceive, devour and destroy. In Job 1, we also see that He can do nothing without God's permission.
Thanks. I appreciate that you aren’t endorsing what Allfree says in his booklet. That leaves room for constructive dialogue.
I don’t have a copy of the booklet in my personal library. I’ll contact Restoration Fellowship and see if I can obtain the edition information from them. I also haven’t watched or listened to the debate you mention.
In Luke 11:14 both the man and the demon are said to be mute. When the demon is cast out, the man is able to speak. The text doesn’t go on to say if the demon was no longer mute. Luke is focusing our attention on the condition of the man - it is man, not the demons, whom the Messiah is healing.
In Mark 5:7 it is a demon - not the man, which verse 8 makes clear - whom Jesus is speaking to. It is a demon who is causing the man to speak. In fact, the man was possessed by about two thousand demons (v. 13). It is the demon, not the man, who is afraid of being tormented by Jesus. It is the demon’s name, not the man’s name, that is Legion. It is the demons, not the man, who is imploring Jesus.
In Matthew 12 the Pharisees are accusing Jesus of being in league with “Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons”. Who do you believe Beelzebul to be? Jesus denies the accusation but doesn’t deny that Beelzebul, whom he identifies as Satan, is the head of the demons. Beelzebul / Satan has a kingdom - the kingdoms of this world.
In Luke 4:41 the demons aren’t mute. It is clearly the demons, not the possessed persons, who are shouting. It is the demons, not the possessed persons, who are rebuked, and the demons, not the possessed persons, whom he would not allow to speak. It was the demons, not the possessed persons, who knew that he is the Messiah.
I want to look at the statement in James again with you. It’s still not completely clear to me in light of all this data how you would fill in the blank.
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the ______ believe and shudder!”
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demon possessed people believe and shudder!
Is that the phrase you would insert in the blank?
”You” are persons who are not demon-possessed; disciples of the Messiah, presumably. The demon-possessed in scripture are sometimes Jews but not always. Jews - believing and unbelieving - know that God is one. The Gentiles didn’t. The demons who possessed people did.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Ronald, Ronald, Ronald
Context is King
Lucifer is identified within the narrative, but not as a rebellious angel. It is explicitly stated: “Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How the oppressor has ceased!’” (verse 4). While the previous chapter prophesies against Babylon as a whole, this passage specifically targets the king of Babylon.
What you need Ronald is a context which is dealing with your supernatural being and not the King of Babylon.
Use your critical thinking before posting please.
And if you truly believed this which I know you don't how can Satan be covered by worms in the grave (vs11) is he not rather to be cast into the lake of fire? (Rev 20:10).
Scholars today find this section terribly poor evidence for the existence of your creature.
Here is the translators notes from the NET:
The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben shakhar, “Helel son of Shachar”), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon. See HALOT 245 s.v. הֵילֵל. sn What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15 This whole section (vv. 4b-21 ) is directed to the king of Babylon.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Good Morning and thank you for the FYI
It is crystal clear from scripture, beginning in Genesis and forward that God is The Spirit, satan is a spirit, angels/demons are spirits.
Just as you pointed out how the demons that possessed the man spoke to JESUS declaring who JESUS is and who they are and they begged JESUS not to be judged at this time = so JESUS allowed them to go into the pigs.
Question: Why, after the pigs became demon possessed did they run off the cliff???
Last edited:
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
And that is your take. I just gave mine and don't care to argue - take it or leave it.
What I have noticed over the years is that the Non-Trinitarians frequently distort and /or just cannot discern scripture properly and the list of doctrines they are confused about is long.
Your group falls withing less than 3% of Christianity. Did it ever occur to you that the Holy Spirit (Who resides in the Christian), would instill the truth about the nature of God AND to be able to identify, know and understand the workings of Satan? I would think that is fundamental teaching on His part. And it has been; since the 97% of confessed believers are privy to this knowledge.
But you go ahead and think and believe what you will and you will soon find out the truth.
Even AI could figure this one out:
In Isaiah 14, the "king of Babylon" is a figure of speech referring to the literal king of Babylon, but with broader implications that include the ultimate downfall of evil and the symbolic representation of Satan. While
Since you don't possess this discernment, maybe just rely on AI to help you?
Last edited:
Trinitarian vs. non-trinitarian isn’t the issue. Note that surveys conducted by Barna show that a large percentage of Christians do not believe in the personality of the devil (and the demons).
I’m a Jewish monotheist - as is the Messiah himself - and everyone knows or should that Jewish monotheists aren’t trinitarians.
I‘m in agreement with your position on Satan and the demons.
Similar threads
