Christian Superstition

[bbyrd009]

It's not just a shame that most Protestants reject the Eucharist - it's a tragedy . . .

nah, it's a ritual, that has meaning, but it has meaning bc it is significant, it signifies, it is a picture of the real thing
the more important part of the concept is likely in the "reflect" and "don't do this lightly" stuff, that will really only have meaning when you start consuming Christ, assuming one ever does

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not saying that prayer is ineffective

wishing is great, too, yes, it frames the mind for action? But our prayers are really for ourselves, imo, to accomplish this, to open the mind to change. Prayer as we define it is not how prayer was defined when the KJV was written

 

[bbyrd009]

I am saying that mistaking ourselves as the change agent during prayer is superstitious.

hmm

 

[aspen]

I think I’ve only mention the Eucharist a few times on this board - too sacred to argue

 

[BreadOfLife]

the fact that He had not hacked off any body parts should have made that pretty clear i would think

Catholics don't eat "hacked off" body parts, Einstein.
We consume Him SACRAMENTALLY - just as He prescribed at the Last Supper.

 

[BreadOfLife]

more rungs on that ladder actually, lotta symbolism goin on in there

Really??
Please enlighten me . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

nah, it's a ritual, that has meaning, but it has meaning bc it is significant, it signifies, it is a picture of the real thing
the more important part of the concept is likely in the "reflect" and "don't do this lightly" stuff, that will really only have meaning when you start consuming Christ, assuming one ever does

Uhhhh, nobody said it wasn't a ritual - but that doesn't mean it isn't His Body and Blood.

Which part of "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" are you having difficulty with?

 

[bbyrd009]

Uhhhh, nobody said it wasn't a ritual - but that doesn't mean it isn't His Body and Blood.

Which part of "This IS my body" and "This IS my blood" are you having difficulty with?

none at all, but the point is that Christ was offering them bread and wine as He said that, making the symbolic nature of His speech there obvious

 

[amadeus]

nah, it's a ritual, that has meaning, but it has meaning bc it is significant, it signifies, it is a picture of the real thing
the more important part of the concept is likely in the "reflect" and "don't do this lightly" stuff, that will really only have meaning when you start consuming Christ, assuming one ever does

Absolutely! We are to eat his flesh and drink his blood. If the heart is right in the consuming of the wafer and the fruit of grapes it is not harmful, but what if this is simply another picture or shadow or type of the real thing, be it according to Catholic or Protestant ritual?

Jesus is the Word of God, so it is desired that we partake of the Word by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. We eat the His dead carcass and then as we drink of His blood the carcass within can be brought to Life. This is why Jesus came:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Anyone can eat of the dead carcass by reading the scriptures, but as we see there are literally thousands of denominations based upon the same scriptures. Likely some or even much of what they have used to build their doctrines remains dead.

Then comes that second essential [as I see essential] of drinking of His blood so as to resurrect the carcass within us.

 

[bbyrd009]

nice! Not the working concept i have ezackly, but the symbology is great, the "in real life" nature of the actual consumption is illustrated, and that one might partake of Communion their whole lives and miss the point is also perceived, yes

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Christian superstition.
I read the OP "thy will be done", then go on to page three and it's "eating carcasses and drinking blood".

Heaven's to Mergatroid!
Mother Mary and Joseph!
What is going on here?

 

[BreadOfLife]

none at all, but the point is that Christ was offering them bread and wine as He said that, making the symbolic nature of His speech there obvious

No - that;s the whole correlation with the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6.

Jesus told them that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood - they had NO life within them.
At the Last Supper - He gave the the formula to consume Him sacramentally.

In the Bread of Life Discourse, Jesus repeatedly talks about "eating" of His flesh and the "drinking" of His blood.
To drive His point across - John doesn't use the word for human eating (Phagon), but "Trogon" - the way an animal rips apart its food.

In verse John 6:66, most of the crowd leaves Him and goes back to their former way of life.
Jesus doesn't try to explain that He was speaking "symbolically". He simply turns to the Apostles and asks, "Do you ALSO want to leave."

Nothing "symbolic" about what He was saying.
He meant what He said and they couldn't handle it - just like YOU can't.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christian superstition.
I read the OP "thy will be done", then go on to page three and it's "eating carcasses and drinking blood".

Heaven's to Mergatroid!
Mother Mary and Joseph!
What is going on here?

A "carcass" is the dead remains of an animal, Einstein . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Nothing "symbolic" about what He was saying.

yet we are still confronted with the knowledge that Christ was not offering any body parts or cups of blood to ppl, and was only offending them with words, so to deny symbolism does not even make logical sense

 

[BreadOfLife]

yet we are still confronted with the knowledge that Christ was not offering any body parts or cups of blood to ppl, and was only offending them with words, so to deny symbolism does not even make logical sense

Soooo, you didn't read ANYTHING I posted did you?
Here it is AGAIN . . .

No - that's the whole correlation with the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6.

Jesus told them that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood - they had NO life within them.
At the Last Supper - He gave the the formula to consume Him SACRAMENTALLY.

In the Bread of Life Discourse, Jesus repeatedly talks about "eating" of His flesh and the "drinking" of His blood.
To drive His point across - John doesn't use the word for human eating (Phagon), but "Trogon" - the way an animal rips apart its food.

In verse John 6:66, most of the crowd leaves Him and goes back to their former way of life. Jesus doesn't try to explain that He was speaking "symbolically". He simply turns to the Apostles and asks, "Do you ALSO want to leave?"

Now - to what "symbolism" are you referring??

 

[Helen]

Christian superstition.
I read the OP "thy will be done", then go on to page three and it's "eating carcasses and drinking blood".

Heaven's to Mergatroid!
Mother Mary and Joseph!
What is going on here?

Fallen down some old rabbit hole and ended up in Wonderland..

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus told them that unless they ate His flesh and drank His blood - they had NO life within them.
At the Last Supper - He gave the the formula to consume Him SACRAMENTALLY.

well, that is your understanding, yes, but i do not agree with it, almost entirely do not agree, although i grant that a ritual was also introduced for "as oft as ye gather," which btw was 3 times a year, not once a week or every day, profaning even the sacrament, which we can observe is not even salvational

 

[Helen]

..although i grant that a ritual was also introduced for "as oft as ye gather," which btw was 3 times a year, not once a week or every day, profaning even the sacrament, which we can observe is not even salvational

Agree, nowhere does or did it say every time you are meeting...as with most things..because they were so used to rituals all through the OT they made it into one. It has ended up as a tradition rather than a life giving blessed time. The Life has been sucked out of it in many churches and just ritual remains. I have found this on many levels, all denominations and none denominational ...even in the "Free Churches" it has become a "form of godliness" without they power. ( as has what they call "The Lords Prayer")


As you can probably tell, this is one strong pet peeve with me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

well, that is your understanding, yes, but i do not agree with it, almost entirely do not agree, although i grant that a ritual was also introduced for "as oft as ye gather," which btw was 3 times a year, not once a week or every day, profaning even the sacrament, which we can observe is not even salvational

That's NOT what the Bible says:
Acts 2:46
And continuing DAILY with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart;

John 6:51-56
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


Sounds pretty dern "salvational" to me AND to the Early Church . . .

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood) from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria
"Eat my flesh" Jesus says, "and drink my blood." The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

Hippolytus
"And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table" [Proverbs 9:1] . . . refers to his Christ's honored and undefiled body and blood, which DAY BY DAY are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e., the Last Supper] (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

Augustine
I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).

 

[Helen]

But "breaking bread daily" was not spoken as a ritual...it is speaking of - Fellowship ...just like in our day we say " Come over for coffee and cake"
That is breaking bread from house to house...we still do it...
But, as we always end up saying ...we will all believe just what we all believe to be 'right' to believe.
No one gets his mind changed except by the Holy Spirit..."for a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. "