THE LAW also commands that adulterers, homosexuals, rebellious children, violators of the Sabbath, those of other religions, etc. be executed. You're biting off a lot more than you can chew.
Christianity and the Death Penalty in America
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If it had always been left in place think of how much of a better place America would be? The divorce rate would be 0 there would be no homosexual movement children would mind. We would all be able to get time off to really rest. We would not have to worry about Islam coming in and bombing our buildings cause they would not have a foot hold. Be a big bite wouldn't it now? In today's society all of those are a protected group with special rights and privledges. Wonder why that is?
Nobody was under THE LAW but the Nation of Israel. They couldn't keep THE LAW so God scattered them and destroyed their Nation. THE LAW could not save them and it surely couldn't save us either.
I don't think so.
The sins - which the world agrees with us in them being "bad things" - you mentioned all mostly involve the person doing them. When a murder takes place, the sin completely affects the murdered person (they're dead). I understand the that people are fully affected by things like adultery (spouse's, children, etc.) but that is where grace comes in and despite all of the heartache and evil, life moves on for the victims; often they go on to become stronger. For a murdered person it does not. Grace is between you and God, and you and the person(s) offended.
Murder is totally different. That person is not around to be forgiven. In fact, God brought murder out as a heinous crime long before the Ten Commandments (and the rest of the statutes and ordinances) came out.
Again, in Matthew 5, Christ expanded upon the law - including murder. Jesus told us that even if we are mad at a brother (sister) without cause, we are guilty. Whether it be: rape, envy, strife, stealing, etc. murder comes about because of these emotions.
It is God's great provision that these people be sent to Him; He will deal with them. That includes thought's we've never even considered like the destruction of that person's line - what cancer-curing child (as an obvious yet trite example) might have had life snuffed out before he/she was ever born? We don't know. Almighty God does and he clear an unequivocally commanded us to do so. There is certainly no clear retraction of this law and he rather clearly establishes that the things (thoughts & emotions) that lead to murder are evil as well.
th1b.taylor is correct in his bold assertion that it's scriptural rebellion to declare otherwise. I'm not knocking you folks' faith or whatnot, but this is a correct statement from him. Again, the law is to be seen (in light of verses like Hosea 6:6) through the eyes of a Creator and not just as a written cold statement. This was something that was understood in the OT era for a time at least.
Never was intended to save anybody. It was there to protect and sanctify the people not save them. The death penalty where this thread started was to protect the people from murders and other things where death was required..... The penalties were for the good of the people. Sin always has and always will have consequences. People can out law the consequences thinking that they are doing something because they hate God.
Are you actually saying we should execute adulterers, homosexuals, violators of the Sabbath, those of other religions, etc. as Moses commanded?
Jesus gave us a MUCH better Covenant. Don't you think He did what was right?
Hebrews 8:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A pregnant woman walks into a quick-e-mart, and suddenly the barrel of a 357 magnum pops out of her belly button and you hear a squeaky voice say "gimme all yer cash, or yer gettin it, seeeee?!?"
Then *BANG BANG BANG!!* and three people hit the floor stone dead. Little hand pokes out of the womans belly button and retracts with all the loot from the register. As the pregnant woman darts out the front door, a stick of lit dynamite flies back into the quick-e-mart from the little hand hanging from the womans abdomen, and the building goes up like a roman candle with 12 people inside. As the woman skips down the road you can hear a little squeaky voice yelling " Come and get me, coppers! Ah ha ha ha ha! No one can catch me! I'm George Nelson! I'm bigger than any John, live or limp! I'm ten an' a half feet tall! "
K, when that happens, I'll admit I'ma hypocrite
Does #3 bother you? Doesn't bother me, it's just another excuse. If it's not that, it'll be something else, and usually its many excuses and often blaming someone else. Go street witnessing, you'll see. Death comes to us all, but that should not be the big fear, it's what God does with ya after, and I'm sure many fear that thought, though not me as I reeealy look forward to it. But send someone out in cold blood, well best prevent them from doin it again. So off they go too, and makes for a good example so that others will not do the same (statistically true). But it's nothing new, as such punishement has been practiced for thousands of years. It's just self-preservation of the human race. If anyone uses that argument against you, against Christians, it's just to stir division to spite God. They know full well others support such views and that are not Christians.
A pregnant woman walks into a quick-e-mart, and suddenly the barrel of a 357 magnum pops out of her belly button and you hear a squeaky voice say "gimme all yer cash, or yer gettin it, seeeee?!?"
Then *BANG BANG BANG!!* and three people hit the floor stone dead. Little hand pokes out of the womans belly button and retracts with all the loot from the register. As the pregnant woman darts out the front door, a stick of lit dynamite flies back into the quick-e-mart from the little hand hanging from the womans abdomen, and the building goes up like a roman candle with 12 people inside. As the woman skips down the road you can hear a little squeaky voice yelling " Come and get me, coppers! Ah ha ha ha ha! No one can catch me! I'm George Nelson! I'm bigger than any John, live or limp! I'm ten an' a half feet tall! "
K, when that happens, I'll admit I'ma hypocrite
Does #3 bother you? Doesn't bother me, it's just another excuse. If it's not that, it'll be something else, and usually its many excuses and often blaming someone else. Go street witnessing, you'll see. Death comes to us all, but that should not be the big fear, it's what God does with ya after, and I'm sure many fear that thought, though not me as I reeealy look forward to it. But send someone out in cold blood, well best prevent them from doin it again. So off they go too, and makes for a good example so that others will not do the same (statistically true). But it's nothing new, as such punishement has been practiced for thousands of years. It's just self-preservation of the human race. If anyone uses that argument against you, against Christians, it's just to stir division to spite God. They know full well others support such views and that are not Christians.
Babyface, Nelson?
Actually, statistics do not support the death penalty as a deterrent.
I agree that it makes the general public feel like justice has been served, but it usually does not help the families of the victim - it sure didn't help mine.
I think God calls us to sacrifice vengeance for forgiveness. I am not advocating that we forgive all criminals and let them out of prison - but I am saying that the death penalty acts as the final vengeance and if it is carried out, forgiveness is really not possible - at least not in my experience.
Victims would be killed by the powerful - just like what is happening in the Middle East today.
I didn't mention anything about vengeance. I don't view it as vengeance. I've seen stats that show it does detour. But whether or not it does detour on the big picture, my direct usage towards the individual was "prevent them from doin it again". Murder hardly even gets life in prison any longer, and as soon as a country collapses (among other reasons), they are out again. Prisons are not even a place to be reformed in, they only make people worse. It's a lapse in judgment to overlook, that in very little time will only spell trouble for a society... such as the troubles we are already seeing in the west due to the socialistic-liberal systems.
btw that was from the movie oh brother where art thou, the quote
I didn't mention anything about vengeance. I don't view it as vengeance. I've seen stats that show it does detour. But whether or not it does detour on the big picture, my direct usage towards the individual was "prevent them from doin it again". Murder hardly even gets life in prison any longer, and as soon as a country collapses (among other reasons), they are out again. Prisons are not even a place to be reformed in, they only make people worse. It's a lapse in judgment to overlook, that in very little time will only spell trouble for a society... such as the troubles we are already seeing in the west due to the socialistic-liberal systems.
btw that was from the movie oh brother where art thou, the quote
Wait till they release all of the murders and rapists that are now in prison when they can't even afford to house them any longer. Then you will see why they need to have a death penalty.
I didn't mention anything about vengeance. I don't view it as vengeance. I've seen stats that show it does detour. But whether or not it does detour on the big picture, my direct usage towards the individual was "prevent them from doin it again". Murder hardly even gets life in prison any longer, and as soon as a country collapses (among other reasons), they are out again. Prisons are not even a place to be reformed in, they only make people worse. It's a lapse in judgment to overlook, that in very little time will only spell trouble for a society... such as the troubles we are already seeing in the west due to the socialistic-liberal systems.
btw that was from the movie oh brother where art thou, the quote
It was viewed as vengeance in my family (my uncle was kidnapped and murdered) and I think it is viewed that way by many. As far as being a deterrent - they only stats that support this idea are on murders that are committed in prison, by other prisoners.
I understand what you are saying about stopping a murderer from murdering again - I just think we need to reform the laws to make sure they do not get out of prison. I think it is rather sad that we have gotten to a point where killing a prisoner is the only solution to reforming them.
I love Oh Brother Where Art Thou - do you remember how much Nelson hated being called Babyface?
Prisons are a big business in the US. We love to fill them up. The fact is, we need prison reform, but the politicians would rather rely on locking up as many people as possible and rely on early release so they can make the argument for building more prisons. I really think prisons are the new pork that has replaced military bases.
I understand but we are at a point very soon that we are not going to be worried about pork becasuse there is not going to be any money period. When there is no money in them they will turn everything in them loose to keep them from starving they will all riot and escape. Then we as the public at large will have to deal with them outside of the prisons.
Well said my friend!
The question isn't whether or not governments can use the death penalty, the question is, is it compatible with Christianity?
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