Christianity and War

[THE Gypsy]

This is an interesting article. The author is [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]Laurence M. Vance an[/size][/font]d, for the most part, centers around Christians in the United Stated and their "OOO-AHH" support of war.

I'd like to get some feedback on this guys opinions.

http://www.lewrockwe...e/vance143.html


Oh yeah...Warning: It's a wordy read!

 

[Goinheix]

This is an interesting article. The author is [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]Laurence M. Vance an[/size][/font]d, for the most part, centers around Christians in the United Stated and their "OOO-AHH" support of war.

I'd like to get some feedback on this guys opinions.

http://www.lewrockwe...e/vance143.html


Oh yeah...Warning: It's a wordy read!

Since laurence M. Vance is not member of this Forum or at least is not participating on this thread it will be difficul to have his concepts refuted. It will be not fear because he can not answer back. Wich part of all his opinions do you think are correct, where do you have doubts and in what is he wrong?

 

[Groundzero]

This is an interesting article. The author is [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]Laurence M. Vance an[/size][/font]d, for the most part, centers around Christians in the United Stated and their "OOO-AHH" support of war.

I'd like to get some feedback on this guys opinions.

http://www.lewrockwe...e/vance143.html


Oh yeah...Warning: It's a wordy read!

Alright. Here is what I think in as few words as possible.

Firstly, you wouldn't believe how sick and tired I am of hearing people bash Bush and his administration. Is Obama doing better?! NO! He is 100 times worse! He isn't even an American for crying out loud! If this guy is such a wise smart alec, why doesn't he get up and show everyone how it's done? I'd love to see him do it, because I think he'd suddenly realise that nothing is clear-cut! We don't have the right to slander our rulers just because we don't think they are right. Did David slander Saul? Not that we know of, and he had every right to do it! We are not authorised to speak against authority in such a fashion.

Secondly, the way he rips into the military makes me want to vomit. I have read some shocking statements, but this guy is losing his head. Who is really responsible for all this? The soldier is serving his country. Don't rip into him because he is merely doing his job. I believe that there are forces, faceless men, who now control what is going on. It's not going to make it better by causing division in the country. Jesus said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand.' I can't stand anti-war protesters. No, I don't always agree with a war, but they do nothing but take it out on people who in many cases don't deserve it. These people, in the name of their country, RIP THEIR COUNTRY DOWN!

Thirdly, this guy makes a really big point about how Christians are not to get involved in war and gives a 'wonderful' example. The Christians in Rome. Well whoopee do da day! What a great example! NOT! Rome was a world empire, not a melting pot of individual states out to conquer each other! Big difference! I think that in the medieval times, the 'Christian' armies might not always have been 'Christian' but seriously, would it be correct to let the Muslims rush in and make an empire? NO! I thank God that there were men who were willing to stand up and repulse the enemy from their land! Something else to note, in the Heroes of Faith, some of those who were listed were those who TURNED TO FLIGHT THE ARMIES OF THE ALIENS. Sounds like war to me!

I do agree with what he says about humanitarian aid, etc. I am anti-UN and anti-humanitarian aid. I believe that the military of a country is to defend the country against invasion and to help the allies of that country and groups who need help.

While he has valid points, he has taken it out on leaders in a totally inappropriate way, condemns the very military that has kept the country of the USA safe, and while hitting some valid points, has failed to recognise the real reason behind the mess. This world is headed for a one-world government. The only way that can be achieved is through the UN, humanitarian aid, and these 'pointless' wars. The prince of this world is alive and active, and what we are seeing is a direct result of it.

 

[Groundzero]

All in all, he has some valid points, especially in his last paragraph. While he takes it out on all different people, he has failed to mention the main reason for why this is happening.

The reason, as I have previously stated, is this world is headed for a one-world government. All these 'peace-keeping' operations are a part of that process. The financial crisis is a part of that process. All these new 'anti-terrorism' laws are a part of that process. The god of this world is pulling the strings, and now, after years of sleeping, Christianity is suddenly finding itself in a serious position. The question now is: are we still sleeping? Or will we awake and give our all in throwing back the prince of this world? We will never succeed, but it is our duty, and we must never cease until it is all over and we are dead or Jesus returns.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Alright. Here is what I think in as few words as possible.

Firstly, you wouldn't believe how sick and tired I am of hearing people bash Bush and his administration. Is Obama doing better?! NO! He is 100 times worse! He isn't even an American for crying out loud! If this guy is such a wise smart alec, why doesn't he get up and show everyone how it's done? I'd love to see him do it, because I think he'd suddenly realise that nothing is clear-cut! We don't have the right to slander our rulers just because we don't think they are right. Did David slander Saul? Not that we know of, and he had every right to do it! We are not authorised to speak against authority in such a fashion.

Secondly, the way he rips into the military makes me want to vomit. I have read some shocking statements, but this guy is losing his head. Who is really responsible for all this? The soldier is serving his country. Don't rip into him because he is merely doing his job. I believe that there are forces, faceless men, who now control what is going on. It's not going to make it better by causing division in the country. Jesus said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand.' I can't stand anti-war protesters. No, I don't always agree with a war, but they do nothing but take it out on people who in many cases don't deserve it. These people, in the name of their country, RIP THEIR COUNTRY DOWN!

Thirdly, this guy makes a really big point about how Christians are not to get involved in war and gives a 'wonderful' example. The Christians in Rome. Well whoopee do da day! What a great example! NOT! Rome was a world empire, not a melting pot of individual states out to conquer each other! Big difference! I think that in the medieval times, the 'Christian' armies might not always have been 'Christian' but seriously, would it be correct to let the Muslims rush in and make an empire? NO! I thank God that there were men who were willing to stand up and repulse the enemy from their land! Something else to note, in the Heroes of Faith, some of those who were listed were those who TURNED TO FLIGHT THE ARMIES OF THE ALIENS. Sounds like war to me!

I do agree with what he says about humanitarian aid, etc. I am anti-UN and anti-humanitarian aid. I believe that the military of a country is to defend the country against invasion and to help the allies of that country and groups who need help.

While he has valid points, he has taken it out on leaders in a totally inappropriate way, condemns the very military that has kept the country of the USA safe, and while hitting some valid points, has failed to recognise the real reason behind the mess. This world is headed for a one-world government. The only way that can be achieved is through the UN, humanitarian aid, and these 'pointless' wars. The prince of this world is alive and active, and what we are seeing is a direct result of it.

GZ...Interesting take on the article. I didn't see it in quite that light.

Note: All of my response is simply IMO...The article was not so much "Bush Bashing" as it was trying to get Christians to start thinking about their blind support for US Administrations and Republicans as a whole. Although, I can see how people pick that up from an initial read. Whether or not Obama is "doing better" is irrelevant. The same "Christians" that blindly supported Bush are the same ones that will not hesitate to point out the failures of Obama. THAT is also one of the points the author was trying to make. You just made the statement "We don't have the right to slander our rulers just because we don't think they are right." and then turned around and said Obama is "100 times worse!" See the difference? And as a side note - I disagree. The Scriptures make it clear we do need to question those in authority and speak out. Why else would we be instructed to "Be careful of wolves in sheep's clothing" or "Beware of false teachers"? How could we even recognize the existence of either if we don't take a good hard look at their actions and make an assessment? And if you know someone/something falls into those categories would you keep quiet and allow others to stumble into the trap? Vance's statement "[font="Times New Roman][size="3"]..., the last time I looked in my Bible, I got the strong impression that it was only God who should be obeyed 100 percent of the time without question."[/size][/font] is where my convictions lie as well.

I agree with the author that there has indeed been a support, from the Christian community as a whole, that borders idolatry.

The US supports corrupt, and abusive, regimes when it suits its purpose and ignores, or turns on them when it doesn't. Saddam Husein is a classic example.

I also don't believe the author was "ripping into the military" as much as the "military industrial complex" and the leaders of it....IOW...The ones that give the orders. And again...Of the blind support from Christians....The old "Give me a HOO-HAA when one of "theirs die" but a bucket of tears and a hero label when it's one of ours. Do you believe God values any life more than another? (The question is rhetorical. I've read enough of your posts to not believe that is the case) It's that perspective the author is addressing.

As far as Rome - Rome itself was not the point. The point was the example of the early Christians convictions. Which we all study and learn from.

Also, I agree with nowhere in the New Testament is patriotism encouraged. Meaning the convictions of most that "We (the US) are always right and everyone else is always wrong.) That is not the case and I do not believe God looks at the world that way.

Is the point of our military to protect OUR borders or to police/disrupt the rest of the world?

I also believe we are headed to a one world government, but it's much bigger than through "UN, humanitarian aid, and these 'pointless' wars" .

The US has been a dominate force throughout the world. In order for a one world government to be formed the US must be lowered and other countries must rise. Obviously we are in the midst of a take-down while at the same time Brazil, India, China, and Russia (BRIC Nations) are on the rise. And now, we can add a "S" to that acronym. (South Africa). The US was so high there wasn't a chance of this happening without leveling the playing field.The decisions of past Administrations have done a great job with that task.

 

[veteran]

GZ...Interesting take on the article. I didn't see it in quite that light.

Note: All of my response is simply IMO...The article was not so much "Bush Bashing" as it was trying to get Christians to start thinking about their blind support for US Administrations and Republicans as a whole...

Have to ask unbiased questions if you want unbiased answers. You didn't mention other U.S. political parties like the Democratic party which ALSO supports going to war. Why not ask why the political party you follow also supports war?

If I were in charge, I have a real easy way to settle this argument. It's called mandatory 2 year military service for all after high school. Many countries in Europe do it. For conscientious objectors, you don't have to pull the trigger, but you would have to show up for the battle.

 

[THE Gypsy]

[/b]
Have to ask unbiased questions if you want unbiased answers. You didn't mention other U.S. political parties like the Democratic party which ALSO supports going to war. Why not ask why the political party you follow also supports war?

"Other political parties" were not the subject of the article. As a matter of fact...The subject of the article was Christians blind support of the Republican party.

 

[veteran]

"Other political parties" were not the subject of the article. As a matter of fact...The subject of the article was Christians blind support of the Republican party.

Well, it's part of the subject now, isn't it? I'm making it part of the subject, whether you like it or not.

Your beholding the "mote" in the eye of the Republican party while not recognizing the same with other parties like the Democratic party means you've failed to recognize the "beam" in your own eye!


Matt 7:3-5
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(KJV)


RADICAL LEFTIST IDEALISM is what your thread is really about, it's obvious, otherwise you would not be interested in singling out just the Republican party. You're a HYPOCRITE.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Well, it's part of the subject now, isn't it? I'm making it part of the subject, whether you like it or not.

Your beholding the "mote" in the eye of the Republican party while not recognizing the same with other parties like the Democratic party means you've failed to recognize the "beam" in your own eye!


Matt 7:3-5
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
(KJV)


RADICAL LEFTIST IDEALISM is what your thread is really about, it's obvious, otherwise you would not be interested in singling out just the Republican party. You're a HYPOCRITE.

Get a grip, veteran, and reread the OP if you must.

It is not "my" anything. I simply posted an article that I found interesting and was interested in discussing the content of said article. I didn't write it.

 

[Groundzero]

GZ...Interesting take on the article. I didn't see it in quite that light.

Note: All of my response is simply IMO...The article was not so much "Bush Bashing" as it was trying to get Christians to start thinking about their blind support for US Administrations and Republicans as a whole. Although, I can see how people pick that up from an initial read. Whether or not Obama is "doing better" is irrelevant. The same "Christians" that blindly supported Bush are the same ones that will not hesitate to point out the failures of Obama. THAT is also one of the points the author was trying to make. You just made the statement "We don't have the right to slander our rulers just because we don't think they are right." and then turned around and said Obama is "100 times worse!" See the difference? And as a side note - I disagree. The Scriptures make it clear we do need to question those in authority and speak out. Why else would we be instructed to "Be careful of wolves in sheep's clothing" or "Beware of false teachers"? How could we even recognize the existence of either if we don't take a good hard look at their actions and make an assessment? And if you know someone/something falls into those categories would you keep quiet and allow others to stumble into the trap? Vance's statement "[font="Times New Roman][size="3"]..., the last time I looked in my Bible, I got the strong impression that it was only God who should be obeyed 100 percent of the time without question."[/size][/font] is where my convictions lie as well.

I agree with the author that there has indeed been a support, from the Christian community as a whole, that borders idolatry.

The US supports corrupt, and abusive, regimes when it suits its purpose and ignores, or turns on them when it doesn't. Saddam Husein is a classic example.

I also don't believe the author was "ripping into the military" as much as the "military industrial complex" and the leaders of it....IOW...The ones that give the orders. And again...Of the blind support from Christians....The old "Give me a HOO-HAA when one of "theirs die" but a bucket of tears and a hero label when it's one of ours. Do you believe God values any life more than another? (The question is rhetorical. I've read enough of your posts to not believe that is the case) It's that perspective the author is addressing.

As far as Rome - Rome itself was not the point. The point was the example of the early Christians convictions. Which we all study and learn from.

Also, I agree with nowhere in the New Testament is patriotism encouraged. Meaning the convictions of most that "We (the US) are always right and everyone else is always wrong.) That is not the case and I do not believe God looks at the world that way.

Is the point of our military to protect OUR borders or to police/disrupt the rest of the world?

I also believe we are headed to a one world government, but it's much bigger than through "UN, humanitarian aid, and these 'pointless' wars" .

The US has been a dominate force throughout the world. In order for a one world government to be formed the US must be lowered and other countries must rise. Obviously we are in the midst of a take-down while at the same time Brazil, India, China, and Russia (BRIC Nations) are on the rise. And now, we can add a "S" to that acronym. (South Africa). The US was so high there wasn't a chance of this happening without leveling the playing field.The decisions of past Administrations have done a great job with that task.

As far as I am aware of the Bush administration, they did not rip down the Bible. When I said Obama is 100 times worse, I am speaking of what I have seen of him. I have seen him abuse Bible, then proclaim he is a Christian! I have seen him praying with Muslims! And Americans are foolish enough to believe that he is Christian! If Bush was bad, then Obama is much worse! My opinion about Bush is that he tried his best for America. Obama is not doing so. I have heard some of his speeches, and they made me sick to think that we could be so unpatriotic!

I'm not going to get into the end-times discussion. For those who are wondering, I do have many ideas which, well, aren't widely accepted. The convictions of the US is not correct. You seem to think that everyone thinks that the US is always right. Guess who made the US fall in Vietnam? The media and public opinion! Enough said.

I had a quick take on what I thought. As I said, he had some good points, but if he really wants to change what is going on, it's going to be alot harder than he pictures it, because the real enemies are not those who are in government, such as Bush and Obama, but the faceless men behind them.

 

[THE Gypsy]

As far as I am aware of the Bush administration, they did not rip down the Bible. When I said Obama is 100 times worse, I am speaking of what I have seen of him. I have seen him abuse Bible, then proclaim he is a Christian! I have seen him praying with Muslims! And Americans are foolish enough to believe that he is Christian! If Bush was bad, then Obama is much worse! My opinion about Bush is that he tried his best for America. Obama is not doing so. I have heard some of his speeches, and they made me sick to think that we could be so unpatriotic!

I misunderstood your reference...Sorry. I agree that Obama has taken us down the wrong path...At lightening speed.

I'm not going to get into the end-times discussion

Maybe another time? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I had a quick take on what I thought. As I said, he had some good points, but if he really wants to change what is going on, it's going to be alot harder than he pictures it, because the real enemies are not those who are in government, such as Bush and Obama, but the faceless men behind them.

Agreed.

 

[Groundzero]

I misunderstood your reference...Sorry. I agree that Obama has taken us down the wrong path...At lightening speed.



Maybe another time? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


Agreed.

Hey, that's ok. It probably did sound like I was bashing Obama. I didn't intend such a thought to get across. I can say that as a person listening to his speeches, Obama sounds like peanut butter. Bush's ideology isn't new. Many before him have had the same idea. It is merely a different idea of economics. Can't say that I fully agree with it.

Yeah. If I have the time! lol.

Have a great week!

 

[FHII]

This is an interesting article. The author is [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]Laurence M. Vance an[/size][/font]d, for the most part, centers around Christians in the United Stated and their "OOO-AHH" support of war.

I'd like to get some feedback on this guys opinions.

http://www.lewrockwe...e/vance143.html


Oh yeah...Warning: It's a wordy read!

I didn't read the whole article... Yea... To wordy for me at this time! Maybe I will go back and do so, but not now. I read the first 3 or 4 paragraphs as well the last two or three. Please take that in mind when reading my comments and forgive me if I misrepresent him.

Yea, the article was interesting for sure. I do look at it as a tirade against Bush. However, also against US foreign policy overall. Look, it's pretty hard to separate myself as a citizen and supporter of the USA and a Child of God. However, not impossible. Let me give you an example of my point of view concerning this. Everyone knows the pledge of alliegence, right? Goinheix probably doesn't because I don't know if he's in this country. Others may not either so here it is:

"I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Simple and short, there it is.

In the US, there is great opposition to it (for those who don't know). But most oppose it for saying we are "under God". That's not why I oppose it. I oppose it because I pledge allegiance to none other than God. I also certainly don't believe that this nation always does God's bidding so therefore we don't always obey and claim to be under God. That is not just under Obama, but Bush, Clinton, Bush 41 and Reagan. I live in this country and really am thankful for it. I wouldn't want to live in any other country except this one. If anyone can think of somewhere else on earth they'd rather live, please let me know... But we heard a testimony from a brother from Norway which makes me feel even stronger about how blessed we are to live in this country!

Let me move on in my point... This country is far from perfect. If it was perfect, no we wouldn't need to go to war for any reason. What country is perfect? Every other country I know of goes to war at some point OR they wish they had the means to go to war. Human Gov'ts aren't perfect. None of them. Not democracy, not socialism, not communism, certainly not anarchy. The Bible does promise that The Gov't will be on Jesus' shoulders and then, we will have a perfect government.

But's lets talk in the here and now. I consider myself a citizen of heaven, for lack of a better term, first. Yet I was born in the US. I am in flesh and blood and if I don't follow the law of the land, I will get arrested. The Bible does say to obey magistrates for Christ's sake.

Some people quote the Bible as saying "be not like the world" as meaning don't do anything that those of the world do. There's a problem with that. That verse isn't in the Bible. It does say Love not the world, nor the things in it. Well, compared to heaven, I don't love the world. The Bible says we have to be in the world for a time and be overcomers in it.

That being the backdrop, let me address "war". I don't like it but we must realize that the Gov't knows far more stuff than we do. I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE SMARTER! I am just saying they know certain situations and things that they won't tell us. I think plenty of people could do better, but we as common citizens of the U.S. really don't have all the facts to make an informed decision.

I would be overjoyed if the U.S. would back out of all wars, shut down all oversees military camps, and say screw you all! We're taking our baseball and going home! Have fun. But what chaos would that bring?

I follow politics for two reason. One, as a hobby. Two, because when election time comes those elected officials will effect my fleshly life. No, I don't care so much about my fleshly life as I do my spiritual life, however, I don't want it to suffer either. I want to be informed enough to make a decision on election day.

Let's talk about our current wars. Should we be in Iraq or Afganistan? Hey, I clearly see a threat in Afganistan and we've done a good job eliminating that threat under both Bush and Obama. Iraq? Well, maybe not as much. However, I do acknowledge that perhaps there is stuff we don't know and I don't believe for a second that the former regime in Iraq wasn't for America falling hard and wasn't somehow trying to figure out how to do it.

But as a Christian.... As a spiritual being. I really don't care. The Lord sees the end from the beginning and has declared it, which means he has set it as a fact. I accept that. I am more interested in what is going to be preached at my Church this weekend than anything that happens in the world. I'd love to get out of all wars, but if it's not possible.... Ok. God said the world is going to go to hell anyway. We ain't going to prevent it.

However, from the concluding points of this fella's speech, let me offer my comments.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States has become a rogue state, a pariah nation, an evil empire.[/size][/font]

Absolutely wrong! I don't like it, but we are still part of the UN. Are we Evil? Compared to who? God? Well then yes. Compared to other nations? No.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States' military is the greatest force for evil in the world.[/size][/font]

Wrong. Yes, war machines are evil. Except God's and he has one heckuva war machine and army! The media is far too quick to call us evil... I suppose and have heard other countries thanking us for bringing peace. Little old Kuwait. Do you think they aren't thankful?

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is the arms dealer to the world.[/size][/font]

Well, probably so.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is not the world's policeman.[/size][/font]

Whether anyone likes it or not... Yea. We are. And I don't like it either. Have you heard that Sudan is now two separate countries? The North is still stronger than the south. If the North invades the South, who do you think the South is going to call? Russia? France? North Korea? Kenya? The U.N.? How about Vatican City? Really? And the world will blame the US if we don't make it right!

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States cannot redeem the world through violence.[/size][/font]

Well, that's true. We can't do it through peace either.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is not the God-anointed protector of Israel that enjoys a special relationship with God.[/size][/font]

Well.... That is subject to interpretation of the Bible, but I believe we are. Is Israel's becoming a country in 1948 prophecized? England can make a claim too, but who else has allowed Israel to fluorish?

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States government is the greatest threat to American life, liberty, and property — not the leaders or the military or the people of Iraq, Iran, Syria, China, Russia, or Venezuela.[/size][/font]

Well, that I can agree with. China and Russia we may have a problem with. But not for long if we used our full might. The other countries can be shut down as quickly as Iraq was.

Let me end by saying if I have enraged anyone or if anyone disagrees, please at least ask questions and let me explain. This is a complicated post and I'm not sure if I have fully covered nor explained myself all that well.

 

[THE Gypsy]

FHII...Thanks for the response. I'm going to read through it, and discuss, in the morning. (My brain functions better, then )

I do appreciate those that take the time to respond.

 

[Groundzero]

However, from the concluding points of this fella's speech, let me offer my comments.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States has become a rogue state, a pariah nation, an evil empire.[/size][/font]

Absolutely wrong! I don't like it, but we are still part of the UN. Are we Evil? Compared to who? God? Well then yes. Compared to other nations? No.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States' military is the greatest force for evil in the world.[/size][/font]

Wrong. Yes, war machines are evil. Except God's and he has one heckuva war machine and army! The media is far too quick to call us evil... I suppose and have heard other countries thanking us for bringing peace. Little old Kuwait. Do you think they aren't thankful?

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is the arms dealer to the world.[/size][/font]

Well, probably so.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is not the world's policeman.[/size][/font]

Whether anyone likes it or not... Yea. We are. And I don't like it either. Have you heard that Sudan is now two separate countries? The North is still stronger than the south. If the North invades the South, who do you think the South is going to call? Russia? France? North Korea? Kenya? The U.N.? How about Vatican City? Really? And the world will blame the US if we don't make it right!

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States cannot redeem the world through violence.[/size][/font]

Well, that's true. We can't do it through peace either.

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States is not the God-anointed protector of Israel that enjoys a special relationship with God.[/size][/font]

Well.... That is subject to interpretation of the Bible, but I believe we are. Is Israel's becoming a country in 1948 prophecized? England can make a claim too, but who else has allowed Israel to fluorish?

• [font="Times New Roman][size="3"]The United States government is the greatest threat to American life, liberty, and property — not the leaders or the military or the people of Iraq, Iran, Syria, China, Russia, or Venezuela.[/size][/font]

Well, that I can agree with. China and Russia we may have a problem with. But not for long if we used our full might. The other countries can be shut down as quickly as Iraq was.

Let me end by saying if I have enraged anyone or if anyone disagrees, please at least ask questions and let me explain. This is a complicated post and I'm not sure if I have fully covered nor explained myself all that well.

Great points! I agree with you, almost fully!

There is a saying which I think is very applicable, only through war can peace come. Solomon's kingdom experienced great peace, but how? Through his father David! A man of blood!

You have explained yourself really well.

As for the 'protector of Israel', Australia has claim to that as well! lol. We were the first to recognize the state of Israel I do believe, not only that, but our armies were heavily involved in freeing Israel from the Turks! I can say, from history, that America has been one of the greatest world powers ever, and by far the most Christian.

Arms dealing? Sorry, that's the only point where I don't agree. The USA does alot, but how about Russia? Does anyone know what the most common rifle is? The AK-47. Russian-produced. That author obviously doesn't know much about military hardware and it's producers!

Great point as well about the US military as a force for evil. People often say that the South Vienamese didn't want to have American involvment. Wrong. I read this heartbreaking story of an Aussie in Vietnam who was confronted by an old grandmother who pleaded with him to stay! Oh yeah, sounds like evil to me! Perhaps if we were thrown in the shoes of the people in these lands that we would understand a little better what goes on.

LOL. I did exactly the same thing as you, FHII, mainly the first paragraphs and the last paragraphs!

 

[veteran]

Get a grip, veteran, and reread the OP if you must.

It is not "my" anything. I simply posted an article that I found interesting and was interested in discussing the content of said article. I didn't write it.

Sorry, that article is Leftist propaganda. And by your own words in your leader, that was enough suggestion that you agree with that article.

So now you're saying you don't agree with that article's content? and if not, why did you post it?

 

[veteran]

Since FDR (maybe even farther back), all U.S. Presidents have bowed to world Socialism. Someone that actually knew real American history, and not revisionist American history, would easily know that. World Socialism is the main tool the workers of iniquity are using to bring all nations into their proposed "one world government". That world government plan is what the final Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom of ten horns, ten crowns, and ten heads is about. God has ordained it to happen per His Word, and that is how it's being brought. The forming of the League of Nations was a major indicator to it. This is why even President Woodrow Wilson used the term "New World Order" in one of his speeches.

It is utter foolishness to pin all that working on just one man, like the President. Obama is a puppet, Clinton was a puppet, both Bush's were puppets, even Reagan was a puppet, all the way back to... Woodrow Wilson at least. Doesn't really matter which political party gets elected, nothing is going to change against that "one world government" working. Those who hold the purse strings always hold the real power. All politicians know that. By 1913 with the creation of the Federal Reserve, those holding the purse strings got control of the American economy and U.S. politicians.

So I feel very sorry for today's generation that tries to rely on modern media sources to try and figure out today's political climate, for that's exactly what the workers of iniquity want people to do, to keep them off the track of what's really going on behind their backs.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Sorry, that article is Leftist propaganda. And by your own words in your leader, that was enough suggestion that you agree with that article.

So now you're saying you don't agree with that article's content? and if not, why did you post it?

Lawrence Vance and Lew Rockwell "Leftists"?

I also did not state whether I "agreed" or "disagreed" with the article.

I don't always post things I agree with 100%. Sometimes I post things because they get me thinking. Just because I'm a Believer does not mean I check my brain at the door.

Some of the things I agree with Vance on are as follows...


First of all...The item that caught my attention was...This is a subject that turns Christians into disgraceful apologists of the state, its leaders, its military, and its wars. I personally have seen that pretty consistently throughout the body.

Here are some other quotes that have caused me to research and rethink my convictions...

...But Christianity is in a sad state. There is an unholy desire on the part of a great many Christians to legitimize killing in war. There persists the idea among too many Christians that mass killing in war is acceptable, but the killing of one’s neighbor violates the sixth commandment’s prohibition against killing.

...Much of the blame for Christian support for war must be laid at the feet of the pastors who have failed to discern the truth themselves so they can educate their congregations. They are blind leaders of the blind. It is tragic that many so-called Christian “leaders” moonlight as apologists for the Republican Party. (I have also seen a great deal of this)

...The indifference they have toward war is unholy. The callous attitude they have toward killing foreigners is unholy. The idolatry they manifest toward the state is unholy.

...The morality of going to war in the first place, as well as the number of dead and wounded Iraqis, is of absolutely no concern to most Christian Americans.

...Many Christians have a warped view of what it means to be pro-life. Why is it that foreigners don’t have the same right to life as unborn American babies? There should be no difference between being for abortion and for war. Both result in the death of innocents.

...Aggression, violence, and bloodshed are contrary to the very nature of Christianity.

...There is nothing in the New Testament from which to draw the conclusion that killing is somehow sanctified if it is done in the name of the state.

These paragraphs cemented the need to rethink convictions...(Particularly the "bold")

...War is mentioned over two hundred times in the Bible. The overwhelming majority of these instances concern in some way the nation of Israel. This fact is extremely important, because, as I pointed out earlier, The president of the United States is not God, America is not the nation of Israel, and the U.S. military is not the Lord’s army. Most of the other references to war in the Bible are just that—references to “weapons of war,” “men of war,” or war in general. We read only a handful of times in the Old Testament of nations other than Israel going to war against each other. There are even fewer references to a future time when the nations will not “learn war any more.” Twice we read of civil war in Israel, either between the forces of David and Saul or between the northern and southern tribes. The various wars of Israel against its enemies can be considered inherently just wars for the simple reason that since God was behind them, they couldn’t be anything else. God is “just and right,” and “just and true” are his ways. And likewise for when the Lord used the king of Babylon to bring judgment against Israel.

But just war theory has nothing to do with war in the Bible. Christian just war theory began as the attempt by Augustine to reconcile Christian participation in warfare with the morality of New Testament Christianity by, among other things, distinguishing between soldiers’ outwardly violent actions while waging war and their inwardly spiritual disposition. Yes, Augustine corrected the distortions of just causes for war formulated by Aristotle for Alexander the Great and by Cicero for Julius Caesar, but he also distorted the New Testament by allowing Christians to make peace with war.

...Just war theory is untenable because it is difficult to know with sufficient confidence whether all of its conditions have been met, because some of its tenets are impossible to realize, because the criteria of just war theory are too flexible, because it contradicts itself in that it sanctions the killing of innocents, which it at the same time prohibits, and because it is used to justify rather than to prevent war. Indeed, just war theory can be used effectively by all sides to justify all wars. Every government, every ruler, every soldier, every citizen—they all think their country’s wars are just.

...But not only is just war theory not based on Scripture, it is rooted in blind obedience to the state, which, the last time I read my Bible, is not a tenet of New Testament Christianity.

...There are some just war principles that can be derived from Israel’s wars against its enemies. After all, the New Testament says that “whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning”; they are written for our examples and admonition. According to the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, a just war is a defensive war, a responsive war, a limited war, a voluntary war, a reserved war, and a divine war. If it seems as though these biblical just war principles would rule out almost any war, then you are correct in your assumption. My point is simply this: If Christians are to talk about the principles of just war theory, they should at least attempt to base them on Scripture.

...I think it is beyond dispute that the purpose of any country having a military is defense of the country against attack or invasion. The U.S. military should be engaged exclusively in defending the United States, not defending other countries, and certainly not attacking them. It is U.S. borders that should be secured. It is U.S. shores that should be guarded. It is U.S. coasts that should be patrolled. It is U.S. skies where no-fly zones should be enforced. But the purpose of the military has been perverted beyond all recognition...How do launching preemptive strikes, changing regimes, enforcing no-fly zones, stationing troops in other countries, and garrisoning the planet with bases have anything to do with defending America against invasion?

...It is the U.S. government that is the greatest threat to American life, liberty, property, and peace—not the leaders or the military or the people of Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, China, Russia, or Venezuela. And as James Madison said: “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”

...Christians that are not the salt of the earth are good for nothing.

http://archive.theam...dex.php?id=1351

So I feel very sorry for today's generation that tries to rely on modern media sources to try and figure out today's political climate, for that's exactly what the workers of iniquity want people to do, to keep them off the track of what's really going on behind their backs.

Agreed.

 

[veteran]

Lawrence Vance and Lew Rockwell "Leftists"?

Doesn't matter who they say they are nor who others like yourself says they are. Leftist propaganda is Leftist propaganda, regardless of who throws it out.

I also did not state whether I "agreed" or "disagreed" with the article.

Guess we'll eventually find that out.

I don't always post things I agree with 100%. Sometimes I post things because they get me thinking. Just because I'm a Believer does not mean I check my brain at the door.

Normally when someone posts something they are against, they say so from the start. Your words in the OP show you more or less agreed with it. Too late to try and hide that now.

Some of the things I agree with Vance on are as follows...


First of all...The item that caught my attention was...This is a subject that turns Christians into disgraceful apologists of the state, its leaders, its military, and its wars. I personally have seen that pretty consistently throughout the body.

That admits you agree with that part. I don't. A Christian has a duty to God, their family, AND their country. We may not always agree with why we go to war, but we have the duty to at least show up. Someone who is not willing to fight and die for their country, well, there's always clerks, cooks, nursing, and janitor jobs in the military too.

Here are some other quotes that have caused me to research and rethink my convictions...

...But Christianity is in a sad state. There is an unholy desire on the part of a great many Christians to legitimize killing in war. There persists the idea among too many Christians that mass killing in war is acceptable, but the killing of one’s neighbor violates the sixth commandment’s prohibition against killing.

...Much of the blame for Christian support for war must be laid at the feet of the pastors who have failed to discern the truth themselves so they can educate their congregations. They are blind leaders of the blind. It is tragic that many so-called Christian “leaders” moonlight as apologists for the Republican Party. (I have also seen a great deal of this)

...The indifference they have toward war is unholy. The callous attitude they have toward killing foreigners is unholy. The idolatry they manifest toward the state is unholy.

...The morality of going to war in the first place, as well as the number of dead and wounded Iraqis, is of absolutely no concern to most Christian Americans....

The rest of your post I deleted from my response, because it's just your pushing this pacifist LEFTIST propaganda against the Christian West, particularly aimed at Christian Churches. It even aligns with Muslim propaganda against the Christian West.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Doesn't matter who they say they are nor who others like yourself says they are. Leftist propaganda is Leftist propaganda, regardless of who throws it out.

Just because you disagree with it does not mean it's "leftist propaganda".

Guess we'll eventually find that out.

I doubt it since you don't seem to be reading the posts.

Your words in the OP show you more or less agreed with it. Too late to try and hide that now.

Only in your mind since I was not specific either way. And, I'm not hiding from anything.

That admits you agree with that part. I don't. A Christian has a duty to God, their family, AND their country. We may not always agree with why we go to war, but we have the duty to at least show up. Someone who is not willing to fight and die for their country, well, there's always clerks, cooks, nursing, and janitor jobs in the military too.

Not sure what your Bible says, but...According to my Bible the ONLY one, on your list, that we're supposed to have a BLIND loyalty to is God.

The rest of your post I deleted from my response, because it's just your pushing this pacifist LEFTIST propaganda against the Christian West, particularly aimed at Christian Churches. It even aligns with Muslim propaganda against the Christian West.

Really? I'd be interested in hearing how you tie the following to "LEFTIST propaganda against the Christian West"....

1. This fact is extremely important, because, as I pointed out earlier, The president of the United States is not God, America is not the nation of Israel, and the U.S. military is not the Lord’s army.

2. The various wars of Israel against its enemies can be considered inherently just wars for the simple reason that since God was behind them, they couldn’t be anything else. God is “just and right,” and “just and true” are his ways. And likewise for when the Lord used the king of Babylon to bring judgment against Israel.

3. Aggression, violence, and bloodshed are contrary to the very nature of Christianity.

4. There is nothing in the New Testament from which to draw the conclusion that killing is somehow sanctified if it is done in the name of the state.

5. According to the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, a just war is a defensive war, a responsive war, a limited war, a voluntary war, a reserved war, and a divine war.

6. Christians that are not the salt of the earth are good for nothing.


I narrowed it down so it wouldn't be so overwhelming.