Christianity and War

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veteran

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Just because you disagree with it does not mean it's "leftist propaganda".



I doubt it since you don't seem to be reading the posts.



Only in your mind since I was not specific either way. And, I'm not hiding from anything.




Not sure what your Bible says, but...According to my Bible the ONLY one, on your list, that we're supposed to have a BLIND loyalty to is God.





Really? I'd be interested in hearing how you tie the following to "LEFTIST propaganda against the Christian West"....

1. This fact is extremely important, because, as I pointed out earlier, The president of the United States is not God, America is not the nation of Israel, and the U.S. military is not the Lord’s army.

2. The various wars of Israel against its enemies can be considered inherently just wars for the simple reason that since God was behind them, they couldn’t be anything else. God is “just and right,” and “just and true” are his ways. And likewise for when the Lord used the king of Babylon to bring judgment against Israel.

3. Aggression, violence, and bloodshed are contrary to the very nature of Christianity.

4. There is nothing in the New Testament from which to draw the conclusion that killing is somehow sanctified if it is done in the name of the state.

5. According to the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, a just war is a defensive war, a responsive war, a limited war, a voluntary war, a reserved war, and a divine war.

6. Christians that are not the salt of the earth are good for nothing.


I narrowed it down so it wouldn't be so overwhelming.

Still Leftist propaganda, and I'm being nice. In my generation during the Vietnam War, it would have been called Communist propaganda, since Communism was the main Leftist propaganda of that era (and really still is today).

I'm Vietnam veteran and I volunteered, but what are you? Have you ever served your country in that kind of capacity?

And if it had been left up to me concerning the draft dodgers of that era, I wouldn't have allowed them back into the U.S.

Lot of Christian ministers took up arms during the American Revolution in 1776. Don't think many of them have the 'guts' today to defend their nation today, not with all the Leftist-Communists ranting that it's sinful to want to bear arms in self-defense.

And by the way, Islamic extremists ATTACKED the United States of America on its own soil with the 9/11 event, and also back in 1993, murdering thousands of American citizens. That's not to mention their attacks on U.S. soldiers in Beruit, attack of the USS Cole, airliner terrorism in 1988 with Pan Am flight 103, etc. Good thing Jimmy Carter, Clinton or Obama weren't President then in 9/11, they would wimped out and done little or nothing, allowing MORE attacks upon American soil. Bill Clinton even lowered the U.S. nuclear deterrent strategy for U.S. response ONLY in the situation of confirmed nuclear detonation on American soil! As soon as Bush got in office he changed it back, along with reaffirming the 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens to bear arms!

About the only kind of person that will not eventually defend theirself against someone continually beating them on the head is a mentally incapacitated person. That's who your Leftist stance and your Leftist Communist article applies to, those who are too weak to defend themselves. You can go tell your Leftist-Islamic buddies that real Americans are STILL prepared to make a stand for God, for their families, AND their nation, and with ARMS if necessary!!! And we are IN Christ's Church ready to do that!
 

THE Gypsy

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Still Leftist propaganda, and I'm being nice.


You keep repeating this and I would like an answer to my question so I understand your reasoning...



Really? I'd be interested in hearing how you tie the following to "LEFTIST propaganda against the Christian West"....

1. This fact is extremely important, because, as I pointed out earlier, The president of the United States is not God, America is not the nation of Israel, and the U.S. military is not the Lord’s army.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe the president of the United States IS God, America IS the nation of Israel and the U.S. military IS the Lord's army?

2. The various wars of Israel against its enemies can be considered inherently just wars for the simple reason that since God was behind them, they couldn’t be anything else. God is “just and right,” and “just and true” are his ways. And likewise for when the Lord used the king of Babylon to bring judgment against Israel.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe the various wars of Israel were NOT just and that God is NOT "just and right" and "just and true"?

3. Aggression, violence, and bloodshed are contrary to the very nature of Christianity.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe aggression, violence and bloodshed are NOT contrary to the very nature of Christianity?

4. There is nothing in the New Testament from which to draw the conclusion that killing is somehow sanctified if it is done in the name of the state.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda", would you please provide the Scripture reference that says killing IS sanctified if it is done in the name of the state?

5. According to the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, a just war is a defensive war, a responsive war, a limited war, a voluntary war, a reserved war, and a divine war.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" exactly where, in the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, it states other that what the above says?

6. Christians that are not the salt of the earth are good for nothing.

If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" can you show me where, in the Bible, it says anything contrary to the above statement?
 

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Choir Loft
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This is an interesting article. The author is Laurence M. Vance and, for the most part, centers around Christians in the United Stated and their "OOO-AHH" support of war.

I'd like to get some feedback on this guys opinions.

http://www.lewrockwe...e/vance143.html


Oh yeah...Warning: It's a wordy read!
biggrin.gif

Excellent article, the premise of which I entirely agree with. The blame for our loss of freedom and constant warmongering lies squarely at the feet of American's churches.

"No nation ..can.. preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."
- James Madison (4th President of the united States)

The united States has now become totally militarised. Americans are deeply involved in a love affair with the military, the reverance, the adoration, the idolatry yes even worship - in our churches as well as our businesses and communities. We have abandoned the qualities of Christ for a rifle and bayonnet.

Why is the economy so bad? Could the execution of SEVEN concurrent wars* be a factor? None offer this one reason because the solution would be so simple. STOP THE WAR(s).

There is now NOTHING that the military can do to bring itself into disfavor; torture, unjust imprisonment, illegal invasions and occupations all are welcomed, blessed and even APPRECIATED in our churches. Support the troops? I WILL NOT.

Our churches and our country now EXPECT and DEMAND the wholesale praise of those who have been trained to kill, bomb and destroy as though they were some sort of rock star.

Where is the appreciation for those who save lives, preserve property, educate our young or work diligently and honestly in our communities? Christians would rather honor those who kill than doctors who save - those who torture rather than those who teach - those who bomb and destroy rather than police and firemen who preserve the peace and save property.

WHERE IS THE SHAME for what we have become? It should be in the church, but it isn't. I attended a Sunday service at Atlanta First Baptist Church, the home of Dr. Charles Stanley this past July 4th weekend. We were all treated to honors (with color guard, rifles and flags) of American violence abroad -in the sanctuary of the church. Unbridled militarism. Blind to American atrocities; every one of them.

It is a shame before God and man and ought to be addressed in our churches.
But it isn't.
We would all just rather wave our flags and ignore the truth of what we have become.
Mindless robots of the American military machine.

* Current active wars;
1. Iraq
2. Afghanistan
3. Pakistan
4. Libya
5. Somalia (covert)
6. Yemen (covert)
7. The War On Terror

BE WARNED that our leadership is seriously considering a campaign against Iran as well.
All we need is another 911 and the whole country will cheerfully follow our fascist leaders into battle.

The pentagon is no longer under civilian control and the congress is merely the puppet of the financial cartel.
The president has been reduced to a figurehead of the controlling oligarchs.

And the Christian church -
is busy organizing Bingo games,
and building projects,
to spread the message,
that Jesus loves America,
and God will bless,
our hands covered with innocent blood.

If God does not judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
 

Groundzero

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Jul 20, 2011
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If God does not judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.


Really? Seems to me that Sodom and Gomorrah's real problems was they had TOO much idle time! I'll tell you what is wrong with the American churches. THEY ARE TOO BUSY SHOOTING THE AIR RATHER THAN SHOOTING THE ENEMY! In other words, American churches should first start with themselves, they should return to the Bible, and then they should actively resist the aggressive advances of homosexual lobby groups, etc. That is the real problem of America. The greatest danger to a country lies in a time of peace, rather than a time of war.
 

veteran

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You keep repeating this and I would like an answer to my question so I understand your reasoning...


Christ speaking in this verse to His disciples...

Luke 22:36
36 Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
(KJV)


Could you pin your "OOOH-AHH' support for war" mocking on our Lord Jesus there, because He told His disciples who didn't yet have a sword to go buy one? That was about His showing them they had a God-given right to bear arms to defend themselves, so why wouldn't nations also have that right?


If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe the president of the United States IS God, America IS the nation of Israel and the U.S. military IS the Lord's army?

Your Obama is God comparison is irrational. America is part of Israel, spiritual Israel per Apostle Paul in Rom.9; all the Christian nations are that are majority Christian. Good ole' USA is still... one of them.


If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe the various wars of Israel were NOT just and that God is NOT "just and right" and "just and true"?

Your "OOOH-AAH' support for war" expression is LEFTIST propaganda, and it mocks Israel's need to go to war at times per its history, along with when Christian nations have the need also. Christ said He didn't come at His first coming to bring peace on earth, but a sword (Matt.10).


If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" does that mean you believe aggression, violence and bloodshed are NOT contrary to the very nature of Christianity?

So, you see our Heavenly Father as an Agressor for sending Israel to destroy in war per Bible history? Why do the following Scriptures reveal differently than what that article and you say...

Exod 15:3
3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is His name.
(KJV)

Ps 24:8
8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(KJV)

Rev 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.


Judg 3:1-2
1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;
(KJV)


If this is "LEFTIST propaganda", would you please provide the Scripture reference that says killing IS sanctified if it is done in the name of the state?

God gave the rules of engagement for Israel against its enemies in the OT, and that's still in effect for God's people today. Pretty clear you don't care about that, nor does the person who wrote that article. Nor do the Leftists that are trying to pacify the Christian West.


If this is "LEFTIST propaganda" exactly where, in the Books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Judges, it states other that what the above says?

Trying reading it and you'll find it. You'll even find in Deuteronomy God's rules for Israel's armies in how they were to act in encampment, which would apply to a military installation or ship today. He promised if Israel didn't follow those rules, He would not give them the win in battle. One of those rules involves not allowing prostitution and homosexuality in the camp. That is especially why Leftists want to push homosexuality in the military today. Think the guy who wrote that article knew this? I doubt it.
 

veteran

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So let's look at the skewed reasoning in that article...


I would like to speak to you today about Christianity and War. I don't suppose there is anything I write and speak about with more fervor than the biblical, economic, and political fallacies of religious people. This is especially true regarding the general subject of Christianity and war. If there is any group of people that should be opposed to war, torture, militarism, the warfare state, state worship, suppression of civil liberties, an imperial presidency, blind nationalism, government propaganda, and an aggressive foreign policy it is Christians, and especially conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist Christians who claim to strictly follow the dictates of Scripture and worship the Prince of Peace.

Pretty clear that the guy treats war as those other things in his comparison, but is that really true about God's people per history? No sane Christian believer wants war. But it's sometimes necessary, otherwise Christ's enemies would have total control. Is that what we Christians really want, to lay down total control to our enemies that seek to destroy us? Of course not.

When Christ told His disciples those who didn't yet have a sword to go buy one, that's about the right of self-defense. He was not telling them to turn the other cheek in a situation with a robber or murderer, or wild animal they might meet on the open road.

One of the worst abuses of Scripture by Leftist Liberals is where Christ told us to love our enemies in turning the other cheek, to do good to our enemies, to love and do good unto them . That wasn't meant in the sense of a robber or murderer coming at you with intent to murder you, nor about an enemy military army seeking to destroy. That was not about terrorist attacks on American soil, nor terrorist bombings targeting Americans in foreign countries. Not all of our enemies that oppose us want to actually kill us. The word 'enemy' is not always synonymous with literal war. A bully that lives down the street that hates us can be classified as an enemy.

Our Lord expected us to use common sense with this point. Obviously, those who really do want to kill us would want us to make it easy, and have us simply not raise arms against them in self-defense. Our Lord's command in Luke 22:36 puts His turn the other cheek into perspective. As Paul said in Rom.12:18, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." IF it be possible is a condition. In some situations, that is not possible, even for us Christians.

Yet that guy in that article equates going to war as a violation of civil liberties? Just who's reasoning is that? The enemies of Christ, for what about our enemies that attack us who obviously could care less about OUR civil liberties? It's really a stupid comparison when talking about war. It's a popular argument Leftists like to use.

Militarism is about control of a government by military factions, like WWII Japan, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Communism. U.S. government had a hard time trying to get Americans to back the free nations at the start of WWII. Our military was sorely depleted. South Korea asked for our help against the Communists, as did the government of South Vietnam. The Christian nations have a duty to help the free nations who want to govern themselves against tyrrany from oppressor nations. Regardless if that's part of a U.N. peacekeeping mission or not. And that's not militarism. It's the oppressor nations that attack the free nations that are practicing 'militarism', so that guy has it all backwards, which is what Leftists often do, get the truth backwards.

When Saddam Hussein held a press conference with his CNN pundits, and put up for show a scared to death little Caucasian boy from the west on display, the little boy literally shaking in fear on TV, I have no doubt that made our Heavenly Father rise up off His Throne in Heaven. The Leftists should be ashamed for not calling Saddam Hussein a 'militarist' for doing those kind of things, and even worse things upon his own people.

The U.S. did not end Saddam's reign of terror in the 1990's Gulf War like it should have. Think it had to do with the U.N. causing that. Saddam had massed weapons and we knew it, because we gave some of them to him to fight Iran after our ally the Shaw was overthrown. The atrocities Saddam was still committing after the Gulf War was enough in itself to justify his removal from power. Question should be, where were all the nations that should have helped in the last invasion of Iraq to overthrow him?

All those other comparisons, blind patriotism, imperialism, warfare statism, etc., are on the same order of the other crazy Leftist comparisons.


It is indeed strange that Christian people should be so accepting of war. War is the greatest suppressor of civil liberties. War is the greatest destroyer of religion, morality, and decency. War is the greatest creator of fertile ground for genocides and atrocities. War is the greatest destroyer of families and young lives. War is the greatest creator of famine, disease, and homelessness. War is the health of the state.

That very first statement is propganda. No sane Christian should accept oppression by an enemy that attacks us, nor attack upon an ally of ours, like Taiwan, South Korea, or Israel. War is not about civil liberities. By the time war becomes necessary, the idea of civil liberties on the battlefield has gone out the window. It's a stupid argument only designed to try and make the 'weak' feel guilty for supporting the taking up of arms against an oppressor. That guy might as well say something like self defense is such a violation of civil liberties upon the oppressor! Yes war is not a good thing in itself. But it is sometimes necessary in order to preserve the peace, just a simple fact of this present world. There will always be collateral damage in war.


But Christianity is in a sad state. In the Church can be found some of the greatest supporters of the state, its leaders, its military, and its wars. Christians who are otherwise good, godly, disciples of Christ often turn into babbling idiots when it comes to the subjects of war, the military, and killing for the state. There is an unholy desire on the part of a great many Christians to legitimize killing in war. There persists the idea among too many Christians that mass killing in war is acceptable, but the killing of one's neighbor violates the sixth commandment's prohibition against killing. Christians who wouldn't think of using the Lord's name in vain blaspheme God when they make ridiculous statements like "God is pro-war."

Guess he hasn't read what God said about war, nor what Jesus said about not bringing peace for this time, but instead a sword. Christ said wars must be during this present world, and the end is not yet while they are still happening (Mark 13). The guy's still on a pacifist Leftist dogma about war, making irrational comparisons just to cause the weak-minded a guilt complex so our enemies can defeat us. God said in Zech.14 when the enemy armies come up against Israel in the last days, Judah there is going to fight!

That guy obviously is deluded about the times and the seasons of today's world. There's a war going on even in our streets! Why doesn't he go out in the streets of L.A. where the gangs hang out and ask them to lay down their weapons? or maybe down to the southern border states where Mexican drug cartels are murdering U.S. citizens? Some illusionist has told him that it's possible to setup a Utopia here on earth for today. The guy has totally lost touch with reality.


Christians who try never to lie do so with boldness when they claim they are pro-life, but refuse to extend their pro-life sentiments to foreigners already out of the womb. Christians who abhor idols are guilty of idolatry when they say that we should follow the latest dictates of the state because we should always "obey the powers that be." Christians who venerate the Bible handle the word of God deceitfully when they quote Scripture to justify U.S. government wars. Christians who claim to have the mind of Christ show that they have lost their mind when they want the full force of government to protect a stem cell, but have no conscience about U.S. soldiers killing for the government.

What does that pro-life kind of statement mean? Conservative Christians fight hard against abortion, but not going to war? That's a subject for big debate. Most conservatives don't want to fight against going to war when our nation has been attacked by aggressors who want to destroy us. Nothing wrong with that thinking. But there is... something very wrong with the thinking that we should sit still when we are attacked by an agressor, like the Islamic terrorists.

So if our nation goes to war because it's attacked, and our gov. starts a military draft, what's he saying, that we should dodge that draft?!? Being drafted for war is blind patriotism, but dodging the draft is true citizenship and following Christ?!? Once again, his Leftist reasoning and comparisons show stupidity. The guy's a complete nut case!!!
 

THE Gypsy

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I'll bow out of this discussion, veteran, since I'm really not interested in a "tit-for-tat" session and my interest was in opinions on some of the things the author had to say. You have spent a great deal of time/effort critiquing me (the poster) rather than the post itself. This is obviously a sensitive topic for you, and I see no reason to develope a riff in the body over it.
 

veteran

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I'll bow out of this discussion, veteran, since I'm really not interested in a "tit-for-tat" session and my interest was in opinions on some of the things the author had to say. You have spent a great deal of time/effort critiquing me (the poster) rather than the post itself. This is obviously a sensitive topic for you, and I see no reason to develope a riff in the body over it.

I'd say I spent a fair amount of time critiquing that article you posted which you initially agreed with per your remarks in the OP. The blatant Leftist-Socialist reasoning in that article should be a "sensitive topic" for any... true Bible-believing Christians. But obviously, there's not that many of us left today.