Christians and Israel - being yoked with unbelievers.

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sk0rpi0n

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(Hi all. Just got my account activated. Looks like I'll be confined only to this section. All right, I'll try and make the most out of it. I'm going to start by posting a subject I had written on another forum, using the same screen-name)


I'll be blunt. Many Christians have yoked themselves with unbelievers because of their support of the anti-Christian state of Israel and the Jews.

Many, if not all, Christians today are staunch supporters of Israel and the Jewish people, for reasons they will justify with various scriptures. Of course, one reason is because Israel holds immense prophetic value to Christians and is in line with their rather Israel-centric interpretations of prophecy. However, was Christian interpretation of prophecy always in favor of Israel? Or was it a more recent phenomenon?

History shows us that the Christians had distanced from the Jews and that things weren't always so rosy between Christians and Jews. For a long time, it was a widely held belief that the church had replaced Israel. (See). It could be said that the early Christian establishment was basically anti-Jewish. I won't get into the details here, but I'll leave you with a starting point for your own research to verify for yourselves.
source 1
source 2

More information is easily available, just google "christian+anti-semitism". Once you are done familiarizing yourself with Christianity's dark history of anti-semitism, you might be wondering how and why many Christians today have come to "love" the Jews and the Israeli state.

An early example of Christian hatred for Jews : In 638 AD the Muslims who entered Jerusalem under Umar were shocked to find that the Christians had turned the holy site of the temple mount into a garbage dump, mainly in an attempt to humiliate the Jews, who were accused of having killed Jesus. It was the Muslims who cleaned up the temple mount and lifted the Christian ban on Jews and allowed them to return and live. Its also known that during the crusades, the Jews fought alongside the Muslims during the siege of Jerusalem in 1099.... and that the Jews preferred Islamic rule over Christian rule. So going back in time, we see that things were very different with regard to the relationship between Christians and Jews.


How Christian interpretation of prophecy changed over time
Today its blindly assumed that Christianity has always been supportive of Jews and that prophecy was always interpreted in favor of the Jews, the same way as its done today. But where did this very idea come from? The bible? The truth is that Christian support for the Jews and a Jewish state is a relatively new phenomenon, dating back only to a 19th century Christian movement calling for the Restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land

After World War 2, when the state of Israel was finally established in 1948, it not only changed maps, but also the mindsets of many Christians with regard to prophecy. It paved the way for a bizarre belief system known as Christian Zionism. , who's adherents fanatically support the Israeli state, because they see it as a sign that they are a step closer to witness the Messiahs return.

The establishment of the new Jewish state in the middle east prompted new trends in prophetic interpretation, that for some mysterious reason, favored Jews and their state in the middle east. New ideas on prophetic interpretation began to evolve over the next few decades, thus shaping Christian interpretation of prophecy. Its present form holds ideas such as :
- The Jewish state of Israel was prophesied to be restored
- 1948 was the year of its fulfillment.
- Jews from all over the world would be gathered to the newly founded state.
- Jews are the chosen people and are the sole recipients of Abrahams blessing.
- Israel will win all its wars, including Armageddon.
- Israel will miraculously accept Jesus be redeemed.
- Israel will be saved from destruction.
... etc.

All these ideas are parroted on various websites, forums, youtube videos etc. and are evident of an extreme pro-Israel mentality among many Christians. They operate on the logic that Israel HAS to prevail and that Israel HAS to be redeemed. One needs to pause and ponder if any of these pro-Jewish eschatological ideas were present during earlier Christian times, when the Jews were, to put it mildly, not so popular with the Christians.

"The primary evidence that God exists is the existence of the Jewish people"
-Pat Robertson

This is just one example of the blind, fanatical support of the anti-Christian Israeli state that has become an ingrained part of the faith of many Christians. Most of the prophecies that Christians quote in support of the Jews / Israel have always part of bibles, yet their interpretations have varied over time. Christians back then did not interpret prophetic scriptures in a way that was favorable to Jews. The reason why prophecies are being interpreted with a pro-Israeli / pro-Jewish flavor is because Christianity has been reshaped to accommodate new ideas in favor of the state of Israel and Jews.

As a result, most Christians today live with this strange infatuation with the Jews and the Jewish state that rejects Jesus as Messiah and insults him as a false prophet (among other things).... while, at the same time, condemning as the "enemy" another people who honor Jesus as Messiah. This upside down logic is the direct result of pro-Israeli Christian leaders influencing the minds of regular Christians. This kind of thinking that compels Christians to adore the same people who, as their scriptures say, killed the central figure of their religion is NOT influenced by the bible, but rather the warped minds of Christian authors and speakers. It is this mixture of religion and politics that has led many to confuse godless politics with religion.

What we have here is a preview of the end times deception. On one hand, we have the Jews who utterly despise Jesus... and on the other, we have the Christians who say they love Jesus... but in an absurd twist of logic, Christians adore and support the Jews who insult Jesus. Will the Christians who have been deceived into supporting the anti-christian state of Israel also be deceived into supporting the anti-Christ? I'd say its very possible. If Christians want to walk hand-in-hand with Israel, they will either swim together or sink together.

I will end with the same quote from Paul, that I started with... so as to leave something for Christians to think about.

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
 

InquisitiveAgnostic

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tl:dr.


lol im just kidding.

You do bring up some interesting points and offer plenty of historical information about the oppresion of Jews through out history.

I'm not sure if it's an anti-christian philosophy as much as it's a bit of social engineering.

After WWII, people had seen how much of a tragedy the Halocaust was. The UN acted in the Jews interests and created a new country right in the middle of the Holy land that had been occupied by Palestinian arabs.

I think the introduction of the Israel prophecies might have been nothing more than the UN or other parties trying to win favor with the populace in order to justify support of the fledgling state.

That, combined with the re emergence of christian fundamentalism in the face of the "godless"* Soviet Union, Fervant Israeli support would naturally come by a religious undertone.




*on the godlessness of the Soviet Union.
It wasn't
 

sk0rpi0n

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I think the introduction of the Israel prophecies might have been nothing more than the UN or other parties trying to win favor with the populace in order to justify support of the fledgling state

Christians did not always interpret biblical prophecies in favor of Jews and Israel the way they do today. Proof is the anti-semitic history of early Christianity.

After the acts of 1948, which led to the formation of Israel in the middle east, Christians began to re-interpret their bibles in favor of the modern day state of Israel....which appeared out of nowhere.

The modern state of Israel, founded in 1948 started to be seen as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

However, the modern state of Israel today is nearly 30% atheist / secular. It is also a hotbed of gay tourism (in the "holy land", can you imagine?) And the inhabitants of the state insult and mock Jesus Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qtVpHUjwQSA

This video was broadcast on Israeli TV.

Bear in mind... nowhere does prophecy ever state that Israel would be restored as a 30% secular state that celebrates homosexuality and insults Jesus, the Messiah.

Much like how the anti-christ appears before the real Christ... the false Israel has appeared before the real Israel.
 

THE Gypsy

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Many things today are "blindly assumed" on both sides of the equation. One thing is for certain...God hasn't finished yet.

BTW...Welcome.
 

InquisitiveAgnostic

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sk0rpi0n said:
* Christians did not always interpret biblical prophecies in favor of Jews and Israel the way they do today. Proof is the anti-semitic history of early Christianity.

** After the acts of 1948, which led to the formation of Israel in the middle east, Christians began to re-interpret their bibles in favor of the modern day state of Israel....which appeared out of nowhere.

*** The modern state of Israel, founded in 1948 started to be seen as fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
* Absolutely, even the holocaust was justified by perverting Roman Catholic teachings

** I can almost certainly guarentee you that it wasn't the Christians who started the idea of Israeli prophecy. The ideologies of the day (see:Truman Era) were just right for religious adaptation.

*** This is a common thing to happen to humans. Many of us adapt evidence to fit the conclusion, instead of letting the evidence point to a conclusion.


I also don't believe that it's an idea shared by most Christians around the world.
 

Angelina

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Well I love Israel [but I'm not a Zionist, nor am I a fanatic] I love Israel because God chose his Son to be born through a line from a tribe of that race. Perhaps it is not the Israel we see today but I look forward to the day that God removes the veil. Then there will be a great big party at the banqueting table and Oh Joy! what an awesome day that will be! GLORY!!!
xf9i14.gif
 

sk0rpi0n

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Angelina said:
I love Israel because God chose his Son to be born through a line from a tribe of that race.

Do you mean "son" as a mere title, as used for Adam in Luke 3:38?

Or did you mean Gods son was "born" out of a relationship with somebody from that race?
 

Angelina

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Please read the bible before challenging me thanks! :huh:

Matthew 2
13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.

Acts 13:33
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

1 Peter 1:20
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
 

sk0rpi0n

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[qoute]Please read the bible before challenging me thanks![/quote]

I have read the bible for 10 years.
The problem is that my interpretation of it is going to differs from yours.

And what you said doesn't really answer my question.

Is "son of God" a title? Yes or no?
Or does it mean God begot a son through a relationship with somebody? Yes or no?
 

Angelina

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Since you already know the answer, why bother with the question...it ain't gonna change my mind about Israel :huh: [Btw: 10 years is not very long]
 

sk0rpi0n

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Angelina said:
Since you already know the answer, why bother with the question...[Btw: 10 years is not very long]
I have my answer... because of my interpretation of the bible. I'm curious to know what you think the answer is, according to your interpretation.
Is "son of God" merely a title like in the case of Adam?
Or was it literal son begotten through a relationship?
Its strange how you keep dodging the question.

Yes, 10 years isn't that long. I started reading the bible in 1996 (high school days). :ph34r:
 

Angelina

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Tell me what Bible are you using and what country do you come from, because you sure don't sound like an American. No 10 years is still not that long, even if you started in High School. That would probably make you in the late 20s, early to mid 30s I guess.

I don't think your question is relevant in the light of my statement. My post is rhetorical in a sense because it is a personal opinion. There is no right or wrong in a personal opinion..."it is, what it is..."

I think that you are trying to bide time because your thread is not actually going to go anywhere JMHO... :huh:
 

THE Gypsy

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sk0rpi0n said:
I have my answer... because of my interpretation of the bible. I'm curious to know what you think the answer is, according to your interpretation.
Is "son of God" merely a title like in the case of Adam?
Or was it literal son begotten through a relationship?
Its strange how you keep dodging the question.

Yes, 10 years isn't that long. I started reading the bible in 1996 (high school days). :ph34r:

What do you use to interpret the bible?
 

Arnie Manitoba

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InquisitiveAgnostic said:
I have to put this here... How do you know God supports a man made country whose name happens to be israel? :p
.
You are correct that on May 14 1948 "a group of men" declared a new country to be called "Israel"

At the time even they did not realize they were fulfilling a prophecy in Isaiah where God said .... "In one day I will make Israel a nation again"

God (Isaiah) even used the name "Israel" ..... but within the group of Jewish men trying to pick out a name in 1948 ... such as .... Palestine .... Judah .... Zion .... etc ..... they could not come to an agreement ...... from the back of the room someone said "Israel" and bingo .... that is what they used.

To answer your question IA ....... God still has many plans for Israel in prophecy , some of it very favorable , and he does it for his own reasons and his Holy name ...... not nessesarily because (the citizens of) Israel deserve it.

God keeps his end of the bargain (covenant) no matter what the Jew does.

Remember the Jew who rejected Christ did not receive forgiveness like we christians have ..... thus they have been punished and scattered and holocausted just like predicted by the prophets.

What we now see in the middle east country of Israel is the re-gathering also predicted by the prophets.

We are now in the era where God has a lot more good stuff in store for His Nation Israel.

He has a middle east peace plan that includes blowing Islam far out into the desert. He will procure the original land he gave his servant jacob. Its a lot bigger than the little sliver of land Israel now occupies
 

Arnie Manitoba

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InquisitiveAgnostic said:
Don't you think the people naming israel would have been fully aware of the 'prophecy' and that's the reason it was so named?
.

It was more like a "political group' of jews who were tasked with picking out a name for land of palestine which was being mandated as a homeland for the jews .... i never got the sense that they were "religious jews" who knew thier prophecies.

The whole point was that at the last minute they chose the name Israel without even realizing it matched up with Isaiah.

If those jewish men had known the book of Isaiah .... i do not think they would have been having a problem picking out the name of the new homeland in 1948.

this example has often been used to show the accuracy of scriptures .....

even today most jews are clueless about prophecy .... but those prophecies still unfold exactly as written.

a lot of christians do not understand the centrality of israel in future events .... that is why some christian interpretation is skewed all over the place.

there are also a lot of christians who think they are Israel.

delusion comes in many forms.
 

Streetsweeper

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Arnie Manitoba said:
God keeps his end of the bargain (covenant) no matter what the Jew does.

Remember the Jew who rejected Christ did not receive forgiveness like we christians have ..... thus they have been punished and scattered and holocausted just like predicted by the prophets.
Statements like this don't seem to be reconcilable with the fact that the church (Chrisitianity) is Jewish.
 

Rocky Wiley

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sk0rpi0n said:
(Hi all. Just got my account activated. Looks like I'll be confined only to this section. All right, I'll try and make the most out of it. I'm going to start by posting a subject I had written on another forum, using the same screen-name)


I'll be blunt. Many Christians have yoked themselves with unbelievers because of their support of the anti-Christian state of Israel and the Jews.
Hi sk0rpi0n,

Welcome to the forum. I also feel we should not be yoked with unbelievers and although I feel a special love for the Jewish people that brought us the plan of salvation that does not pretain to unbelievers. We know, according to Paul, that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. The real children are the ones of faith, not flesh. So when Paul said all of Israel shall be saved, he was speaking of the faithful, Jews and Gentiles alike, for indeed we are the children of Israel. God changed the name of Abram to Abraham, father of many nations.

Much of the bible has been currupted by men that have not studied hermenuetics that they might read the bible for what it says. Therefore they pass on what they have been taught, just like polly parrots.

I pray that you will continue in your pursuit of truth.