Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
which teachings? You do know that the Catholic church has changed their teachings on many things many times over the millenia!
Christians are not under the New Covenant
- Thread starter keithr
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
which teachings? You do know that the Catholic church has changed their teachings on many things many times over the millenia!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
there is no doubt if they had died prior to Pentecost- devout Jews looking for Messiah and if seeing Jesus believed He was messiah, would have been saved.
But once the church was born- then anyone to be saved had to trust Christ. So if one was a devout jew after Pentecost but rejected teh Messiahship of Jesus was lost forever.
the church and Christ are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
same with his church
Truth must be revealed by Christ to his church. Jude 1:3 the holy church teaches all nations. Matt 28:19 without error. Jn 16:13
The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
My faith is revealed through scripture - not by praying to or kneeling to Mary or using prayer beads.
These are a small portion of the scriptures based on beings saved by faith alone with works as a RESULT of being saved; not to "get saved."
Mat 9:2...And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
Mar 2:5...And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven."
Luk 5:20...And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Luk 7:50...And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
1Ti 2:15...Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
Rom 3:27...Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:30...since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
Jas 2:14...What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
Jas 2:17...So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Rom 4:5...And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
Rom 4:9...Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
Act 26:18...to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Rom 1:16...For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17...For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."
Rom 3:22...the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
Rom 3:28...For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Eph 2:8...For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
Rom 3:25...whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
Rom 3:26...it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
Luk 18:8...I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
Luk 22:32...but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
Act 6:5...And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and ....
Act 15:9...and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith.
Act 20:21...testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance to God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mar 2:5...And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven."
Luk 5:20...And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Luk 7:50...And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
1Ti 2:15...Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
Rom 3:27...Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:30...since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
Jas 2:14...What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
Jas 2:17...So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Rom 4:5...And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
Rom 4:9...Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
Act 26:18...to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Rom 1:16...For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17...For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."
Rom 3:22...the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
Rom 3:28...For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Eph 2:8...For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
Rom 3:25...whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
Rom 3:26...it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
Luk 18:8...I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?"
Luk 22:32...but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
Act 6:5...And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and ....
Act 15:9...and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith.
Act 20:21...testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance to God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Without the apostolic tradition and authority of the church from Christ you cannot know what is and what is not scripture
Matt 18:17 listen to the church
Lk 10:16
1 tim 3:15
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
Truth must be revealed by Christ to his church. Jude 1:3 the holy church teaches all nations. Matt 28:19 without error. Jn 16:13
The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17 listen to the church
Lk 10:16
1 tim 3:15
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
Truth must be revealed by Christ to his church. Jude 1:3 the holy church teaches all nations. Matt 28:19 without error. Jn 16:13
The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
"For God so loved the [people] that he gave his only Son, that [if the people] believes in him they should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the [people] might be saved through him.[not the catholic church or Mary] He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." [not in the name of the pope, Mary or the man-made traditions of the Catholic church]
The last time that the mother of Jesus is mentioned anywhere in scripture is here with the brothers of Jesus.....which makes Mary having a pretty good sex life it seems so how is it that all the popes keep denying the truth of scripture that says....
Act 1:14...All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
Now I ask you this question... If Mary is not the mother of "his brothers" then who is the mother of "his brothers" that this verse is referring to?
Last edited:
Christ and his church are one and both are required for salvation
Acts 9:4 eph 5:32
the 12 sons of Jacob were all brothers, who was thier mother?
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
I have 2 questions for you....
- If Simeon, a devout Jew, could not become a Christian (or be saved) then was the mother of Jesus, Mary, not a Christian too seeing how she brought Jesus to the temple when Simeon was alive and before Jesus began his ministry?
- Secondly, if Mary was not a Christian before Jesus started his ministry then how could Jesus's brothers who became apostles be Christians (or saved) also?
? ? What does the mother of the 12 sons of Jacob have to do with the mother of Jesus and her sons anyway?
Last edited:
As I said previously, nobody could become a Christian before Jesus started his ministry, when he was aged about 30 years old. Mary outlived Jesus and she believed Jesus, so of course she was (or became) a Christian. The same applies to Jesus' brothers and the other apostles - it's not that hard to figure out!
As I quoted previously, Acts 3:22-23 (WEB):
(22) For Moses indeed said to the fathers, ‘The Lord God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him in all things whatever he says to you.
(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
Similarly, Jesus said, John 12:48 (WEB):(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
(48) He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
How can anybody who lived before Jesus' ministry listen to what Jesus had to say? After the resurrection everyone will then come to know what Jesus had said and done, and everyone must believe the same words of Jesus or else they will not be granted eternal life - the only way to God is through Jesus (John 14:6 - “No one comes to the Father, except through me").
Last edited:
The Rule of Faith!
What is the rule of faith for Christians, or the source of truth?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?
How do we know truth?
Where does it say the “Bible alone”?
Or that we are permitted to read it for ourselves and make our own doctrine?
Where does it say all revealed truths are found in scripture?
Christ is the rule of faith or source of truth for Christians!
Jn 14:6 Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life! The church is an extension of Christ 1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth!
Must be taught by Christ! Gal 1:2
What God has revealed by scripture and the church, the teaching authority of the apostles has proposed for our belief!
Christians must be instructed or taught!
A Christian must have humility and obedience of faith to be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life!
Jn 14:6
Verses of scripture signifying that we must be taught.
Lk 1:4
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
The church is an exodus christ by which Christ perpetuates his mission, ministry, and teaching with His power and authority through all the world and all ages!
The private interpretation of the “Bible alone” does not and cannot and will not lead to a unity of faith! 2 Pet 1:20
eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Jn 1:16-17 fullness of Christ!
The Bible does not say all truths revealed by God are found in the “Bible alone”! Or that the word of God is limited to the “Bible alone”!
Not the “Bible alone” acts 2:42
Not personal interpretation or experiences. 2 Pet 1:20
The authority of the apostles is required to know what is the scriptures and what is not, the church having wrote the New Testament by the authority of Christ the apostles determined what is scripture and the authentic interpretation there of!
Saint Jerome’s work of collecting the Bible and getting it approved did not happen until in 381 it was approved by the Pope, the valid successor of Peter having jurisdiction authority of the keys of the kingdom of heaven!
How did the church for almost four centuries live without the “Bible alone”?
The teaching authority of the apostles that’s how! The Bible’s is the Bible by the authority of the church, Christ’s authority given to His apostles!
Christ founded the church on Peter and the apostles to defend, to protect, and to teach “thee faith”
A fundamentalist is ruled by spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement from scripture, or the humility to hear the teaching of Christ through the church of His apostles?
Obedience of faith: rom 16:26
We must be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Jn 14:6
Instructed: Lk 1:4 acts 8:31
Teach all nations: Matt 28:19
He who hears you (the apostles) hears me: lk 10:16
Hear the church: Matt 18:17
Church is the pillar and ground of truth: 1 Tim 3:14
Christ and his church are one, the church is an extension of Christ through the whole world and all time: acts 9:4
Not scripture plus private judgement
But guided by the teaching office of Christ and his church!
Without the teaching authority of the apostles you cannot know what is and what is not scripture!
Please explain how the church of Jesus Christ existed before the New Testament, the church taught and believed before the New Testament with the same authority of Christ!
Church of the apostles has the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23
The church wrote the New Testament, the church gathered the cannon of scripture, the church alone has authority to say what is, and what is not scripture and to give the authoritative interpretation or meaning of scripture!
Not spiritual pride & self-righteous private judgement!
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.
What did Christ teach the apostles in the 40 days from His resurrection to His ascension?
What did he teach the two disciples on the road to Emmaus?
What was revealed to John the Baptist in Lk 3:2 the word of God came unto John, and did it come by the Bible alone?
Where does Christ command the New Testament to be written? The apostles having the authority of Christ chose to write scripture! Other apostles wrote nothing at all!
How does the eunuch know about baptism? Acts 8
Rule of faith cannot be the “Bible Alone” because we did not have a bible until 381 when the church of the apostles by the authority of Christ determined what was and what was not scripture! You only have a bible cos the church wrote one and cannonized it by the authority of Christ thru his apostles!
Could not read
The Bible itself points to authority granted by Christ
The Bible condemns person interpretation of scripture as opposed to the church of the apostles having the authority of Christ to interpret scripture
so how can the rule of faith be the “Bible alone” when it did not even exist until the church approved it in 381 by the authority of Christ in His apostles, what about the millions who could not read most could not read until the 20th century, and books including Bible were rare and very expensive all written by hand (mostly by monks who sacrificed their whole life to copy a bible) until the printing press, even then they were still expensive
What does a blind person do?
the Holy Spirit is guaranteed to the apostles Jn 16:13 they are to teach the nations Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 acts 8
in acts 8 did the eunuch know about Christ and baptism from the scripture and the Holy Spirit? No God sent him and apostle
Acts 2:42 the held the doctrine of the apostles
Not the doctrine of the “Bible alone”!
if you believe the doctrine of the “Bible alone”, then there can be no other authority so scratch that verse out of your Bible! And many others that refer to the authority of the apostles!
Btw it’s only by the authority of the apostles that know what is and what is not scripture
Cannot summit to or obey any other authority accept the Bible alone
Even God, or Christ, or His church, or His apostles, or those who He sent and commanded to care for you’re soul!
The Bible is the only authority for a Protestant!
Where does the Bible say the rule of faith is the Bible alone?
the Bible was not ass
led and approved until 381 by the apostles btw
Only the apostles said what is and what is not scripture.
What did Christians do in all those years without the “Bible alone”
until the advent of printing bibles were copied by hand and very rare and extremely expensive what did Christians do in those days
Most people were illiterate until the 20th century what did they do?
So you see the “Bible Alone” cannot be the rule of faith for Christians!
Instead we actually believe scripture and submit to and obey the apostles acts 2:42
Must be taught! Must be instructed by Christ!
Bible does not say to read and decide doctrine for you’re self!
Lk 1:1-4
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture but needed to be instructed by an apostle.
Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Taught by Christ thru His apostles!
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Christ taught them and us thru the apostles.
What is the rule of faith for Christians, or the source of truth?
What is the pillar and ground of truth?
How do we know truth?
Where does it say the “Bible alone”?
Or that we are permitted to read it for ourselves and make our own doctrine?
Where does it say all revealed truths are found in scripture?
Christ is the rule of faith or source of truth for Christians!
Jn 14:6 Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life! The church is an extension of Christ 1 Tim 3:15 the church is the pillar and ground of truth!
Must be taught by Christ! Gal 1:2
What God has revealed by scripture and the church, the teaching authority of the apostles has proposed for our belief!
Christians must be instructed or taught!
A Christian must have humility and obedience of faith to be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life!
Jn 14:6
Verses of scripture signifying that we must be taught.
Lk 1:4
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4
The church is an exodus christ by which Christ perpetuates his mission, ministry, and teaching with His power and authority through all the world and all ages!
The private interpretation of the “Bible alone” does not and cannot and will not lead to a unity of faith! 2 Pet 1:20
eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Jn 1:16-17 fullness of Christ!
The Bible does not say all truths revealed by God are found in the “Bible alone”! Or that the word of God is limited to the “Bible alone”!
Not the “Bible alone” acts 2:42
Not personal interpretation or experiences. 2 Pet 1:20
The authority of the apostles is required to know what is the scriptures and what is not, the church having wrote the New Testament by the authority of Christ the apostles determined what is scripture and the authentic interpretation there of!
Saint Jerome’s work of collecting the Bible and getting it approved did not happen until in 381 it was approved by the Pope, the valid successor of Peter having jurisdiction authority of the keys of the kingdom of heaven!
How did the church for almost four centuries live without the “Bible alone”?
The teaching authority of the apostles that’s how! The Bible’s is the Bible by the authority of the church, Christ’s authority given to His apostles!
Christ founded the church on Peter and the apostles to defend, to protect, and to teach “thee faith”
A fundamentalist is ruled by spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement from scripture, or the humility to hear the teaching of Christ through the church of His apostles?
Obedience of faith: rom 16:26
We must be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Jn 14:6
Instructed: Lk 1:4 acts 8:31
Teach all nations: Matt 28:19
He who hears you (the apostles) hears me: lk 10:16
Hear the church: Matt 18:17
Church is the pillar and ground of truth: 1 Tim 3:14
Christ and his church are one, the church is an extension of Christ through the whole world and all time: acts 9:4
Not scripture plus private judgement
But guided by the teaching office of Christ and his church!
Without the teaching authority of the apostles you cannot know what is and what is not scripture!
Please explain how the church of Jesus Christ existed before the New Testament, the church taught and believed before the New Testament with the same authority of Christ!
Church of the apostles has the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21-23
The church wrote the New Testament, the church gathered the cannon of scripture, the church alone has authority to say what is, and what is not scripture and to give the authoritative interpretation or meaning of scripture!
Not spiritual pride & self-righteous private judgement!
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.
What did Christ teach the apostles in the 40 days from His resurrection to His ascension?
What did he teach the two disciples on the road to Emmaus?
What was revealed to John the Baptist in Lk 3:2 the word of God came unto John, and did it come by the Bible alone?
Where does Christ command the New Testament to be written? The apostles having the authority of Christ chose to write scripture! Other apostles wrote nothing at all!
How does the eunuch know about baptism? Acts 8
Rule of faith cannot be the “Bible Alone” because we did not have a bible until 381 when the church of the apostles by the authority of Christ determined what was and what was not scripture! You only have a bible cos the church wrote one and cannonized it by the authority of Christ thru his apostles!
Could not read
The Bible itself points to authority granted by Christ
The Bible condemns person interpretation of scripture as opposed to the church of the apostles having the authority of Christ to interpret scripture
so how can the rule of faith be the “Bible alone” when it did not even exist until the church approved it in 381 by the authority of Christ in His apostles, what about the millions who could not read most could not read until the 20th century, and books including Bible were rare and very expensive all written by hand (mostly by monks who sacrificed their whole life to copy a bible) until the printing press, even then they were still expensive
What does a blind person do?
the Holy Spirit is guaranteed to the apostles Jn 16:13 they are to teach the nations Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 acts 8
in acts 8 did the eunuch know about Christ and baptism from the scripture and the Holy Spirit? No God sent him and apostle
Acts 2:42 the held the doctrine of the apostles
Not the doctrine of the “Bible alone”!
if you believe the doctrine of the “Bible alone”, then there can be no other authority so scratch that verse out of your Bible! And many others that refer to the authority of the apostles!
Btw it’s only by the authority of the apostles that know what is and what is not scripture
Cannot summit to or obey any other authority accept the Bible alone
Even God, or Christ, or His church, or His apostles, or those who He sent and commanded to care for you’re soul!
The Bible is the only authority for a Protestant!
Where does the Bible say the rule of faith is the Bible alone?
the Bible was not ass
led and approved until 381 by the apostles btwOnly the apostles said what is and what is not scripture.
What did Christians do in all those years without the “Bible alone”
until the advent of printing bibles were copied by hand and very rare and extremely expensive what did Christians do in those days
Most people were illiterate until the 20th century what did they do?
So you see the “Bible Alone” cannot be the rule of faith for Christians!
Instead we actually believe scripture and submit to and obey the apostles acts 2:42
Must be taught! Must be instructed by Christ!
Bible does not say to read and decide doctrine for you’re self!
Lk 1:1-4
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture but needed to be instructed by an apostle.
Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Taught by Christ thru His apostles!
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Christ taught them and us thru the apostles.
Lk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Not scripture alone, but what the prophets spoke! And Christ explaining the scriptures, and we also are disciples, Christ also opens the scripture to us thru His church by the teaching authority of the apostles!
The problem with the “Bible alone”!
You can easily see why the false doctrine of the “Bible alone” causes so many problems and why we can simply ignor creeds, councils, dogma, and decrees of the holy apostles teaching infallibility with the authority of Christ!
“Bible alone” is false doctrine
Negates the word of God, apostolic councils, creeds, cannons, decrees, dogma, and the teaching authority of the apostles!
The false doctrine of “the Bible Alone” is an attack on Christ and His holy church!
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
To reject the church or church teaching is to reject Christ!
An attack on the holy church and her divine authority!
Even Christ who is the truth itself is excluded!
verses that refer to authority other than the “Bible Alone” our of your Bible!
Isa 22:21-22 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 1:32 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 Jn 21:17 Acts 1:17 acts 1:26 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 20:28 eph 2:20 and too many more to mention!
The Bible alone is based on spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement, and personal interpretation, and not truth revealed by God in Christ without error, thru the teaching authority of the apostles!
God, Christ, the HS, the church, the apostles cannot be any authority at all, only scripture
1st problem is that the church of the apostles says what is and what is not scripture
The Bible comes from the teaching of the apostles
Pillar and foundation of truth!
The church will Christ’s authority in the apostles!
1 Tim 3:15
The church existed before the New Testament!
The church believed and taught before there was a New Testament!
The church exercised authority before there was a New Testament!
The authority of Christ thru His one true church wrote the New Testament!
Scripture alone is not enough
Lk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Acts 1:15 peter stood up and opened the scripture to them
acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent an apostle to teach him
not Bible alone and a personal interpretation!
Bible alone
example: of the word of God not in the Bible alone!
Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Or
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
these are divine revelation!
Inspired by the Holy Spirit!
And the word of God!
why do some only accept them after they are written down?
they are divine revelation and the inspired word of God when they were received, and when they were taught to the people, and when they were written down! Why only accept them in the written form or “Bible alone”???
Where does Christ or scripture say that all the divinely reveled truths are in scripture?
Where does Christ or scripture say what is and what is not scripture?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Not scripture alone, but what the prophets spoke! And Christ explaining the scriptures, and we also are disciples, Christ also opens the scripture to us thru His church by the teaching authority of the apostles!
The problem with the “Bible alone”!
You can easily see why the false doctrine of the “Bible alone” causes so many problems and why we can simply ignor creeds, councils, dogma, and decrees of the holy apostles teaching infallibility with the authority of Christ!
“Bible alone” is false doctrine
Negates the word of God, apostolic councils, creeds, cannons, decrees, dogma, and the teaching authority of the apostles!
The false doctrine of “the Bible Alone” is an attack on Christ and His holy church!
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
To reject the church or church teaching is to reject Christ!
An attack on the holy church and her divine authority!
Even Christ who is the truth itself is excluded!
verses that refer to authority other than the “Bible Alone” our of your Bible!
Isa 22:21-22 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 1:32 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 Jn 21:17 Acts 1:17 acts 1:26 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 20:28 eph 2:20 and too many more to mention!
The Bible alone is based on spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement, and personal interpretation, and not truth revealed by God in Christ without error, thru the teaching authority of the apostles!
God, Christ, the HS, the church, the apostles cannot be any authority at all, only scripture
1st problem is that the church of the apostles says what is and what is not scripture
The Bible comes from the teaching of the apostles
Pillar and foundation of truth!
The church will Christ’s authority in the apostles!
1 Tim 3:15
The church existed before the New Testament!
The church believed and taught before there was a New Testament!
The church exercised authority before there was a New Testament!
The authority of Christ thru His one true church wrote the New Testament!
Scripture alone is not enough
Lk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Acts 1:15 peter stood up and opened the scripture to them
acts 8 the eunuch had scripture God sent an apostle to teach him
not Bible alone and a personal interpretation!
Bible alone
example: of the word of God not in the Bible alone!
Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Or
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
these are divine revelation!
Inspired by the Holy Spirit!
And the word of God!
why do some only accept them after they are written down?
they are divine revelation and the inspired word of God when they were received, and when they were taught to the people, and when they were written down! Why only accept them in the written form or “Bible alone”???
Where does Christ or scripture say that all the divinely reveled truths are in scripture?
Where does Christ or scripture say what is and what is not scripture?
I did not ask when he lived, I asked who was their mother?
they are all brothers and have four different mothers
Rachel, Leah, Rachel’s maid servant, and Leah’s maid servant so you’re assertion is baseless, they can be brothers but they cannot be children of Mary ever virgin mother of God, mother of our salvation, and our spiritual mother!
Perpetual Virginity of Mary!
Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!
The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!
And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!
Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)
Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)
Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!
Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)
Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)
Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)
Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?
Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!
First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary anywhere in scripture, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness! Especially after hearing from an angel that her child was of the Holy Spirit! Joseph was full of joy to be the guardian of Marr and her purity!
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?
They are not the children of Mary!
Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)
James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3
In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.
Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.
The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!
Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!
Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.
The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples
Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).
Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!
The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!
And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!
Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)
Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)
Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!
Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)
Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)
Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)
Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?
Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!
First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary anywhere in scripture, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness! Especially after hearing from an angel that her child was of the Holy Spirit! Joseph was full of joy to be the guardian of Marr and her purity!
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?
They are not the children of Mary!
Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)
James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3
In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.
Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.
The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!
Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!
Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.
The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples
Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).
Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.
When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?
Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.
Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!
First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):
"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every
perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.
“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.
“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."
The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?
Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.
Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!
First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):
"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every
“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.
“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.
“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.
“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."
The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
Abraham had righteousness imputed upon him, so he was justified, but his sins were still not forgiven, so he was not saved. The whole merit of Jesus' sacrifice has, so far, only been applied to Christians, so only they currently have their sins forgiven. Nobody has yet been saved. Christians are immersed into Jesus' death and resurrection, and if they maintain their faith and continue to overcome the temptations of the flesh, the world and Satan, then they will be saved when they are resurrected with immortal, divine nature, spirit bodies, and will make up the body of Christ - a new creation. When all Christians have died (or raptured), having sacrificed their human bodies following in Jesus' footsteps, then the whole merit of Jesus' sacrifice will be returned and can then be applied to everyone else. So everyone else who has died or are still alive will have their sins forgiven, and the dead will be resurrected to life again, but they will still not yet be perfect. They will be restored to perfection during the Millenium (Acts 3:20-21), and if they pass the final trial at the end of that time then they will be saved and have eternal life. The faithful of the Old Testament, those that believed God then, will have a better resurrection (being perfect immediately when resurrected), making it easier for them to pass the final trial - but they will not be saved until they have passsed that trial, not until death has been abolished, 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (WEB):
(24) Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
We're only saved from death when death cannot or will not ever occur again for us.
Referring to Habakkuk 2:4, note the preceding verse says (KJV):
(3) For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
or (ASV):(3) For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteth toward the end, and shall not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.
The vision (verse 4) is referring to the end times, the time of the resurrection. The GNB translates it as:
(4) And this is the message: 'Those who are evil will not survive, but those who are righteous will live because they are faithful to God.'
It is saying that during the Millenium only those that are faithful to God will be saved (the rest will suffer the second death, which is eternal death).
I don't know what translation he is quoting, but the KJV says, "(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)" or the ESV:
(1) Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
(2) which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
(2) which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
So Paul is saying that the Gospel was promised through the OT prophets, but he does not say that the Gospel was recorded in the OT, nor that people were saved because they believed the Gospel then. Paul later in the letter says (ESV):
Romans 2:12
(12) For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Romans 3:9-10
(9) What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
(10) as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
(10) as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;
Romans 4:21-25
(21) [Abraham was] fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
(22) That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
(23) But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
(24) but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
(25) who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
(22) That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”
(23) But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone,
(24) but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
(25) who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:9-11
(9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
(10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
(11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
(10) For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
(11) More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Last edited:
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
I can guarantee you that the Roman Church is not "the only ark of salvation!" That is the unfortunate position of many who adhere to the Catholic doctrines. I know because there are Catholics in our family. However, some have "seen the light" and became "born-again Christians" who truly love the Lord and have been baptized.
I also had a neighbor that was a Catholic and during an exchange with him, he told me a joke about a priest who had told him how he had his "sins" removed (not according to confessions in a confessional). Then my neighbor told me how he had his sins removed. He proceeded to tell me that "whenever I do a good deed for something or to someone, God erases one of my sins out of his jar." So then I asked him if he died before he could do enough "works" if that jar remained half full? He thought about that and turned and walked away. That is a good example of trying to work ones way to heaven.
I also have a sister-in-law that was Catholic but intended to take her son to a Protestant church to be baptized. That was odd to me that she even found a Protestand church would do that but she did. So I asked her why she wanted that baby to be baptized at all and she said "so that if he died he would go to heaven." So I asked her what would happen to that baby if it died on the way to get that baby baptized. Her answer was..."he would go to hell then."
That too is a form of works because baptism does not save anyone according to scripture. When Jesus was eight days old, Joseph and Mary took him have him circumcised, as God’s Law to Israel commanded. (Leviticus 12:2, 3) It was also the custom to give a baby boy his name on that day but they did not have him baptized!
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Your post on the millennium is contrary to Catholicism it seems from this....
"The Catholic view of the thousand-year reign is termed amillennialism. This view is shared by Lutherans, Orthodox, and others. What it basically means is that the thousand-year reign is symbolic of the period from Christ's ascension to his return. That is to say, Christ and his people reign now in the New Testament Church, since Christ has already defeated sin, death, and the devil through his death and resurrection. When Christ returns, these enemies of creation will be cast out and God will again dwell directly with his people. In the current reign, God dwells among his people through His Sacraments; at Christ's return, God will dwell directly with His people "immediately" (that is, not "mediated" through the Sacraments - the exact definition and number of Sacraments varies among the Catholic, Lutheran, and Orthodox views).
One implication of this view is that the Book of Revelation covers the entire span from Christ's ascension to his return and is not specifically about "the end." For example, Revelation 5 is often seen as "heaven's view" of Christ's ascension, whereas Acts 1 is "earth's view." The point of Revelation is that the Lord is with His Church, even as it is battered and killed on earth, and he is returning to resurrect His people to dwell with Him on the restored, new heaven and earth (see, for example, Pope Francis' remarks @ at: General Audience of 26 Nover 2014 | Francis )"
The views that you hold onto were developed by a person by the name of John Nelson Darby in the early 1800's not by the Catholic church who disavows his heretical theory.One implication of this view is that the Book of Revelation covers the entire span from Christ's ascension to his return and is not specifically about "the end." For example, Revelation 5 is often seen as "heaven's view" of Christ's ascension, whereas Acts 1 is "earth's view." The point of Revelation is that the Lord is with His Church, even as it is battered and killed on earth, and he is returning to resurrect His people to dwell with Him on the restored, new heaven and earth (see, for example, Pope Francis' remarks @ at: General Audience of 26 Nov
er 2014 | Francis )"
Last edited:
there is only one new covenant
One church
One ark of salvation!
Misinformed or uninformed Catholics are not the rule of faith, truth is revealed by Christ Jude 1:3 and taught by his church as an extension of himself matt 28:19
circumcision was the outward sign of the initiation into the mosaic covenant just as faith and baptism are of the new Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
born again is baptismal regeneration
Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”
John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
Born again means Baptismal regeneration!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Not according to Gods Word!
It is GodsWord that reveals truth and all churches who faithfully preach that word are teaching truth.
Teh evidence of true faith is love to believers and good works as a result of being given the new nature.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well, Actually the view was developed by God Himself when He inspired John to write that people would live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years!
Teh problem with the Roman created amillenial view are these:
but the Bible says this:
1 Corinthians 15:24-29
King James Version
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
So if death is defeated, at His resurrection, then Jesus is no longer reigning according to Gods Word.
also if the current age is allegory for the 1,000 years we have another problem:
Revelation 20
King James Version
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
When did this FIRST resurrection take place???
also if we are living in the millenium according to Roman philosophy that means Satan is abyssed!
Revelation 20:3
King James Version
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
so by explicit evidence all the evil in the world today is not due to the devil but is all on man while Jesus is quietly reigning. If Jesus is reigning now, is this the kind of kingdom you think He would tolerate?
Similar threads
