"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed

[JohnDB]

Now this thread has an erroneous assumption inside of it.
That assumption is that Church is a place of scholarship and learning....like a university or college is. It never has been before and is not today.

Church and Sunday School/small group studies are fluff and morality lessons. Nothing else.
What Church is useful for is making friend connections.
Because a year's worth of sermons and small group lessons do not have anywhere near the life effect that 10 minutes with your friends can accomplish.
Where I can easily put the "drool" in Sunday School with explaining the hermeneutics of many foundational and key scripture passages which will disrupt EVERY denomination in existence....who is going to sit still for it and to what effect will it have?

And besides....
That much study puts your head in the clouds with too much thinking and too little doing.

Jesus wasn't wrong with "straining out a gnat but swallowing a gnat infested camel".

In my years of visiting various churches coast to coast in America and around the world....EVERYONE has doctrinal issues.

I've witnessed the best doctrinal sound churches do some of the worst community involvement possible and some of the most doctrinally unsound churches do acts of the utmost loving kindness for their community. Ones that cost each member personally very deeply.

Preachers and doctrines come and go like the wind....Jesus still remains. And in the USA the most sound doctrinally speaking years were the late 60's to early 70's. They were the worst in actions...but accurate doctrine wise.

 

[Wrangler]

Carriage return spaces between paragraphs are your friend Ronald!

John is a great teacher and Inoften seek his teachings for answers BUT he's quite judgmental about things and people that rub him wrong. He doesn't believe in spiritual gifts, thinks they stopped once the Bible was written. He is a pure intellectual, knowledge he has but lacks some things. Joy.

Astute observation. I agree.

My pastor was spirit-filled, MacArthur is not.

Agreed. He comes across to me as an angry legalist.

He has recently come out and claimed to be a Calvin's when asked by RC Sproul.

That does surprise me in some ways.

Those polls are not precise indicators. Questions are asked a certain way, convoluted sometimes and misunderstood and then misquoted.

Most times, people who conduct the polls have an agenda. This explains the convoluted wording.

For instance, the question could be asked, "Is the Bible literally true?" You can't really answer yes or no to that. The major portion of the Bible is to be taken literally and that portion is true. But some is symbolic and therefore not literally true. Truths can be learned from symbolism. So the 55% of people, like me could have had reservations about the convoluted question and said no, not really ... but you can't explain your answer in a poll.
So forget the stupid polls.

LOL If the question was, "Do you believe the Bible is truly inspired by God," I would answer yes. The wording of the question above, I'd probably answer no. The ancients did not equate an allegorical story with being false. It is still true - even if not literally true.

They are not even good for yes or no answers.

They coul be good for yes or no answers if the pollster did not have an agenda in wording the questions in a convoluted manner.

 

[marks]

I agree that a Christian is not an Island yet, there are still shut-ins, folks that just don't fit the bill for being part of a "normal" family. No husband or wife? No children? Seems to be the right of passage for a 65 year old single for life woman. I do have hopes that The Lord DOES have a small place waiting for me in the small town I will hopefully be moving to in October! Already looking at volunteer opportunities and church's out that way

How exciting! I pray the Lord show you where He means for you to be, that He will provide for you a wonderful family in Christ, with whom you will be able to fellowship and worship together, and serve in many fulfilling and fruitful ways! In Jesus Name!

My sister (she went to Jesus a few years ago at 63) was lifelong single. I don't think I'd have any appreciation for what that really means without having seen her live it. I only wish I had been healthier emotionally to be more "there" for her. One of the pains in my heart is that I only started getting on top of my more serious problems as she was in dying, and I only became able to do more after it was too late!

But she gave this testimony before she went, "I never really understood how much God loved me until I was dying of cancer". So I wasn't the only one falling short on the learning curve! But that's not what it's about, is it? More like, God knows what we need, and He is faithful to provide, only, we may find some of it painful as we experience the ravages from sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now this thread has an erroneous assumption inside of it.
That assumption is that Church is a place of scholarship and learning....like a university or college is. It never has been before and is not today.

I'd have to disagree with this.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 19:8-10 KJV
8) And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9) But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10) And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

1 Corinthians 4:17 KJV
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Timothy 6:2 KJV
And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

2 Timothy 2:2 KJV
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

It seems to me teaching and learning is an intergral part of what we do together.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Now this thread has an erroneous assumption inside of it.
That assumption is that Church is a place of scholarship and learning....like a university or college is. It never has been before and is not today.

This is a very provocative point. OTOH, I agree but OTOH, I disagree.

Obviously, the church is not a place of formal scholarship and learning. But many if not most people in Western Civilization throughout history since the invention of the printing press learned by reading the Bible and attending church services.

My Pastor sometimes say this sermon will be more teaching than preaching. It does tend to rub me the wrong way. However, maybe this is the iron sharpening my iron. I suppose it all comes down to what is the purpose of going to church?

I do not believe it ought to be limited to worshipping God. The flock need a pastor. The sermons should not be an intellectual series of endless pontification. Each congregation should hear the sermon that serves them best. The pastor's primary responsibility is to have a sense of the spiritual needs of his flock and cater to that. Church should consist of 2 things:

1. Worship God
2. Life life together

Some are on the mountain. Some are in the valley. We cannot love each other if we don't do life together. I recall my mother would walk by the priest and warmly smile and say hello. But that is it. I could sense her anxiety in not wanting her relationship with her spiritual leader to go beyond the most superficial of superficialities.

In my heart of hearts, I believe this anxiety was rooted in her knowing that she was not living the life Christ called her too. I don't know what it specifically was. However, she acted with a guilty conscience. Perhaps it was her Catholic upbringing and the sense that interaction with a spiritual leader started with a formal confession of sins. As @Ronald David Bruno wrote, the church experience lacked something. Joy. It was for my mother, more like dread.

 

[amadeus]

I can't tell you how much my wife and I miss it!! All went away with the lockdowns, and never came back.

I also miss those things involved in a smaller fellowship with anointed preaching and teaching... but in the end alas, it was not to be. Too many wanted to be the "boss" as if that was what the pastor was. Jesus is to be our Head. We are to be fully submitted to Him as our Head. Instead, there were too many swollen heads wanting to the Head.

Have any of us learned what the following verse means and taken it as our own?

Php 4:11

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Is not being just a lowly doorkeeper better than being outside in the tents of wickedness?

Ps. 84:10

...I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

 

[Cassandra]

I used to think that, but I heard him give a fantastic teaching concerning the current need and use of spiritual gifts in the present day church. I was quite surprised! I thought it was an excellent teaching. I think his view is that the signs and wonders stopped, but the ministry gifts continue.

While he's more Calvinist than not, I think, I've also heard from him what I thought was one of the most balanced teachings on the topic of election.

Much love!

I listen to MacArthur, too, and while I don't agree with a lot of what he says, I love his voice inflections.

 

[marks]

I listen to MacArthur, too, and while I don't agree with a lot of what he says, I love his voice inflections.

He's a very strong speaker. I don't agree with everything, but mostly I do, and overall, I think he's good for me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

... but in the end alas, it was not to be.

There it is, right there, the heart of the matter.

God is sovereign, and my church went away. Can we trust Him?

Have any of us learned what the following verse means and taken it as our own?

Php 4:11

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Have I learned it? Still learning. But I'm a lot more there than I used to be. I find the key is in living in the moment, and not dwelling on the past, or fantasizing about the future (for good or ill).

That song "Oceans", "Your sovereign hand will be my guide". That's my desire, that my faith is sufficient to receive every circumstance in my life as directly from the hand of my Lord Who loves me, and is caring for me. In that way I can be thankful for all things, as admonished.

Is not being just a lowly doorkeeper better than being outside in the tents of wickedness?

Ps. 84:10

...I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Absolutely yes! I do miss what is gone, but I'm very thankful for what I have.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

How exciting! I pray the Lord show you where He means for you to be, that He will provide for you a wonderful family in Christ, with whom you will be able to fellowship and worship together, and serve in many fulfilling and fruitful ways! In Jesus Name!

My sister (she went to Jesus a few years ago at 63) was lifelong single. I don't think I'd have any appreciation for what that really means without having seen her live it. I only wish I had been healthier emotionally to be more "there" for her. One of the pains in my heart is that I only started getting on top of my more serious problems as she was in dying, and I only became able to do more after it was too late!

But she gave this testimony before she went, "I never really understood how much God loved me until I was dying of cancer". So I wasn't the only one falling short on the learning curve! But that's not what it's about, is it? More like, God knows what we need, and He is faithful to provide, only, we may find some of it painful as we experience the ravages from sin.

Much love!

You have brought me to tears brother! I am so sorry for the loss of your sister, and how you were unable to be more "there" for her. So I take it your sister loved The Lord? That alone would bring me such comfort!
We can only give what we are able to at any given time. We all have regrets yet we are to "...forget those things that are behind"! Satan throws that stuff at me every day! Ha...it seems i'm in spiritual warfare every moment! Yes, SO in need of my FAMILY!!!

Agreed, God does always provide, always! And yes, it can hurt so deeply at times, when He gives back to us the sin that we have sown in our lives.

Thanks so much for the encouragement Marks! Really hoping He will open that door to move, and to be surrounded by His glorious beauty! And I've kind of stopped praying for fellowship in my present area. One can get discouraged...but God!

Later Mr. Clause

 

[marks]

So I take it your sister loved The Lord? That alone would bring me such comfort!

She became a Christian years before I had.

When I was 19, I was travelling around, and came for a visit with the family before leaving again, maybe for good. When I arrived, she asked if I'd like to be baptized with her, there was a beach baptism in 2 weeks. I adamantly refused, but that was when God really went to work on my heart and mind, and in those twe weeks I came to realize the Bible was the Truth I'd been looking for, so I went with her to be double-dunked by our pastor.

Something else that was wonderful to me, in the last couple of weeks before she went, she told me my being with her was a comfort to her, and that she just didn't want to be alone at all. So my brother and I tooks turns sitting with her 24/7, and I was there with her when she went.

Now I'm in tears!!

But it was a real blessing to be able to give her that gift there at the end.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Later Mr. Clause

You crack me up! I've lost 50 lbs since then . . .

 

[Johann]

Covid was a blessing because my door did not get knocked on once.... BUT, I did receive a long hand written letter from one of them.

But this is a great example of how many.... maybe even some of us can be swayed...

Jehovah's Witnesses started in 1870 when Charles Taze Russell led Bible studies in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Jehovah's Witnesses movement came out of the Bible Student movement, also founded by Russell. When he started to dispute some traditional Christian views, the Jehovah's Witnesses were born.

Me thinks he might have been suffering from a little Ellen White or Joseph Smith envy?

In all seriousness though... all it takes is someone with the ability to take a verse and explain why it does not say what is commonly thought.

And a group of people who are looking for someone they consider to be learned enough to explain what they
just don't understand....or cannot comprehend.


And from his claim to understanding the wrongs in the bible comes Tazes understanding

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

My door is wide open to JWs-always an opportunity to evangelize-problem is they won't "stay" for longer than 15 minutes.

 

[JohnDB]

I'd have to disagree with this.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 19:8-10 KJV
8) And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
9) But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
10) And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

1 Corinthians 4:17 KJV
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Timothy 6:2 KJV
And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

2 Timothy 2:2 KJV
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

It seems to me teaching and learning is an intergral part of what we do together.

Much love!

How about not a place of learning since the time of the English Reformation?

Since that time we have had denominations and a few leaders of these lead groups of people into their doctrines and since hermeneutics would void many of their pet doctrines they have exchanged the hermeneutics with flat reading and teaching morality lessons.

 

[Nancy]

She became a Christian years before I had.

When I was 19, I was travelling around, and came for a visit with the family before leaving again, maybe for good. When I arrived, she asked if I'd like to be baptized with her, there was a beach baptism in 2 weeks. I adamantly refused, but that was when God really went to work on my heart and mind, and in those twe weeks I came to realize the Bible was the Truth I'd been looking for, so I went with her to be double-dunked by our pastor.

Something else that was wonderful to me, in the last couple of weeks before she went, she told me my being with her was a comfort to her, and that she just didn't want to be alone at all. So my brother and I tooks turns sitting with her 24/7, and I was there with her when she went.

Now I'm in tears!!

But it was a real blessing to be able to give her that gift there at the end.

Much love!

Wonderful, you've known The Lord since a young 19 year old boy! That is something many of us "late-comers" would love to have done back then. Thank you Lord, for the parable of the vineyard workers!!! God has forgiven us of any sins of commission and omission, and these regrets are not necessarily "sins" per se. Just Satan needling us.

I bet that being "double-dunked" was something for you both to look back on in your lives. I've never seen two being baptised at the same time, lol and awesomeness that your sister was saved!

What a gift God gave all three of you in the last days of your sisters life. He too blessed me big time when my dad and mom passed but, that's another subject altogether. Oh gosh, we have really gone off topic, so sorry @St. SteVen ! You can report me if you want, or I can do it myself ...

Hugs brother!

 

[marks]

How about not a place of learning since the time of the English Reformation?

It doesn't change my mind about this.

Consider . . .

Ephesians 4:12-15 KJV
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Colossians 3:9-11 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

I think teaching has a very important place. But there are many who are not gifted teachers who have taken up that role.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Now this thread has an erroneous assumption inside of it.
That assumption is that Church is a place of scholarship and learning....like a university or college is. It never has been before and is not today.

Church and Sunday School/small group studies are fluff and morality lessons. Nothing else.
What Church is useful for is making friend connections.
Because a year's worth of sermons and small group lessons do not have anywhere near the life effect that 10 minutes with your friends can accomplish.
Where I can easily put the "drool" in Sunday School with explaining the hermeneutics of many foundational and key scripture passages which will disrupt EVERY denomination in existence....who is going to sit still for it and to what effect will it have?

And besides....
That much study puts your head in the clouds with too much thinking and too little doing.

Jesus wasn't wrong with "straining out a gnat but swallowing a gnat infested camel".

In my years of visiting various churches coast to coast in America and around the world....EVERYONE has doctrinal issues.

I've witnessed the best doctrinal sound churches do some of the worst community involvement possible and some of the most doctrinally unsound churches do acts of the utmost loving kindness for their community. Ones that cost each member personally very deeply.

Preachers and doctrines come and go like the wind....Jesus still remains. And in the USA the most sound doctrinally speaking years were the late 60's to early 70's. They were the worst in actions...but accurate doctrine wise.

And-may I add-no practical assistance to those members battling with issues IN Churches-coming together, listen to a 15-20 minutes preaching-shaking the pastors hand on the way out-and promptly walking circles around those begging for bread OUTSIDE the Church-this is normative in South Africa.

 

[marks]

My door is wide open to JWs-always an opportunity to evangelize-problem is they won't "stay" for longer than 15 minutes.

I used to try to engage with the JW's and Mormons who would come to my door. An interesting thing happened. Not long before I was married I was meeting with a couple JW's in my living room a couple of times. But then the visits stopped. Not just these two, no one came to my door any longer.

The I was married, and moved, and in our new apartment, they would come around to the other apartments, but they would always skip our door. These were not the same people, a whole different city, yet they would hit every door but ours.

Maybe spiritual warfare?

That was many years ago. More recently, I had a visit from a woman who had her three children in tow. As I talked with her, I could tell it was just bouncing off, but her children were paying strict attention to me. I pray God bless those words to their salvation!

Much love!

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This is a very provocative point. OTOH, I agree but OTOH, I disagree.

Obviously, the church is not a place of formal scholarship and learning. But many if not most people in Western Civilization throughout history since the invention of the printing press learned by reading the Bible and attending church services.

My Pastor sometimes say this sermon will be more teaching than preaching. It does tend to rub me the wrong way. However, maybe this is the iron sharpening my iron. I suppose it all comes down to what is the purpose of going to church?

I do not believe it ought to be limited to worshipping God. The flock need a pastor. The sermons should not be an intellectual series of endless pontification. Each congregation should hear the sermon that serves them best. The pastor's primary responsibility is to have a sense of the spiritual needs of his flock and cater to that. Church should consist of 2 things:

1. Worship God
2. Life life together

Some are on the mountain. Some are in the valley. We cannot love each other if we don't do life together. I recall my mother would walk by the priest and warmly smile and say hello. But that is it. I could sense her anxiety in not wanting her relationship with her spiritual leader to go beyond the most superficial of superficialities.

In my heart of hearts, I believe this anxiety was rooted in her knowing that she was not living the life Christ called her too. I don't know what it specifically was. However, she acted with a guilty conscience. Perhaps it was her Catholic upbringing and the sense that interaction with a spiritual leader started with a formal confession of sins. As @Ronald David Bruno wrote, the church experience lacked something. Joy. It was for my mother, more like dread.

I preferred an educated (Phd) Pastor that was Spirit-filled/ teaching church. We start out knowing little to nothing. The Holy Spirit teaches us personally but often through the Pastor and other fellow Christians. I have often come to church and felt as if a particular messages was designed into the sermon for me personally. And others received the same. That is the work of the Holy Spirit teaching us specifically what we need, what we've prayed about, at the right time when we need it. The Pastor doesn't have a clue of what is going on in the lives of 3000 members, not even 100 members unless we spend time with him. Then he can address these things. This is why the Pastor needs to be a channel of the Holy Spirit.