"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Not at all.
what I meant by "all it takes is someone with the ability to take a verse and explain why it does not say what is commonly thought."... was that in any group of people, no matter their age or education, when it comes to
... can we say... things of God... you are surly not going to get many of a similar mindset on any specific subject.
It all falls on ones understanding of what they might know.... AND what they want to hear.
OK example might be best....
I honestly have no idea how may actual English translations have come into the world since the original Hebrew and Greek translations arrived on the scene... and they continue to come. (The latest I have seen is the LSV in 2020)
So... if I were to quote "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD " everyone knows what that means..... right?
Then why did someone decide to change it to
Amplified:
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ)
OR
Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
In the origin The Word had been existing
OR
Contemporary English:
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word
OR
God's Word translation:
In the beginning the Word already existed.
OR
Good News translation
In the beginning the Word already existed;
OR
International Standard version:
In the beginning, the Word existed.
There are more but these 6 show that they disagreed with In the beginning was the Word.....
You can argue differing translators see things differently but then... how much more is so different that when you have someone teaching it should be this way and not that... then a following starts.
You can also argue that these translations read basically the same.... but what if someone read things to a different understanding and started to teach their thoughts.
BTW...
Greek English Interlinear states.. their translations is
In [the] beginning was the Word (continuing with ... and the Word was with - God and God was the Word.
We all commonly believe... but not from this verse that Jesus... the Word.... was from before time began.
If you dont believe this then I want a show of hands....
But reading John1:1 ... it says In the beginning was the Word.... which most all would say that this refers to the Word being in creation....
But I could see how some might take In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), OR In the origin The Word had been existing, and run with an OE theme .
OR... the biggie....
Amplified states this about creation week... and does not call it a week. It does not indicate 144 hour for creation, it indicates a day could have been far apart from the previous or next
And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
OK... sorry...I digress.....
If you have someone that takes what they believe the bible is saying and teaches on it... there will be followers.
That is all I meant
Ephesians 4:11-14 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Children need parents or they grow up wild. Jesus gave pastor/teachers to the church to help us mature. The maturity comes as we all come to unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. And these pastor/teachers were given us for that purpose.
So we shouldn't rebel against God's Way, and should sit under annointed teaching.
Much love!
I think speaking in terms of "knowing what we believe" is inaccurate. I know what I believe, however, I may not know what the Bible teaches, so I think that's more the issue. Although "don't know what we believe" makes better click-bait, it frames it as self-contradictory.
Regarding the crystal clarity of Scripture, I've seen two primary ways people approach the Bible. One is to simply believe what is the plain saying of the Bible even if we don't understand how it all works. The other is to apply allegorical or metaphorical interpretations to passages to find harmony with understandings of other passages.
Those who tend to interpret literally will be in general agreement. Those who do not will be all over the map.
It seems to me nearly all disputes over the meaning of Scripture come about because one person is saying, it says THIS, and it means THIS, and the other is saying, It says THIS, but it means THAT.
I've found that in looking at everything for exactly what it's saying shows harmony with all other passages, and provides hours of endless debate with those who interpret according to what they consider symbolic or something.
I know that there is metaphor and allegory and symbol and parable, I happen to think the Bible identifies all of these for us, and shows the meaning, so we can know for certain.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Death bed conversions, really do happen, as God does not set a time limit, regarding faith in Christ.
It can be, however, that a person develops over time, a seared conscience, and if that happens, then the Call of Christ...the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, will no longer reach the heart of an unbeliever, and in that case, they will commit the "sin unto death" and this unpardonable sin of CHRIST REJECTION< will "follow them" into Eternity.
Also, 1 Corinthians 1:21...
"""""it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.""""
God does not use Logic to bring us to FAITH, He uses.. "The preaching of the Cross", and "Faith comes by HEARING" this Gospel.
"Faith is counted as (Christ's) righteousness"
"Justification by Faith".
And Satan is attacking children by rebelling against parents. Many children don't even know what sex they are. Thank you Public schools!
My wife was a classroom aide on the local public schools for over 20 years, until a couple of years ago. If I had children I would never ever send them to a public school.
Much love!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
John is a great teacher and I often seek his teachings for answers BUT he's quite judgmental about things and people that rub him wrong. He doesn't believe in spiritual gifts, thinks they stopped once the Bible was written. He is a pure intellectual and knowledge he has but lacks some things. Joy. He's always so serious like the Rabbis, rarely smiles. He is one of those strict teachers of old who carried the ruler with him at all times, ready to slap your hands if you weren't paying attention. Grace, kindness, gentleness, love and joy are attributes that are supposed to grow. We should see this fruit from our pastors. You don't get warmth from him, he's cold and should have been a professor only. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know him personally. I attended his church in the 90's a couple times - Grace Community Church. My pastor was spirit-filled, MacArthur is not.
He has recently come out and claimed to be a Calvin's when asked by RC Sproul. That says a lot.
Those polls are not precise indicators. Questions are asked a certain way, convoluted sometimes and misunderstood and then misquoted.
For instance, the question could be asked, "Is the Bible literally true?" You can't really answer yes or no to that. The major portion of the Bible is to be taken literally and that portion is true. But some is symbolic and therefore not literally true. Truths can be learned from symbolism. So the 55% of people, like me could have had reservations about the convoluted question and said no, not really ... but you can't explain your answer in a poll.
So forget the stupid polls. They are not even good for yes or no answers.
Example: "Do you believe in God? Yes or no? 90% of the world would say yes. What good is that? It would need to be followed up with: What God do you believe in?
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I used to think that, but I heard him give a fantastic teaching concerning the current need and use of spiritual gifts in the present day church. I was quite surprised! I thought it was an excellent teaching. I think his view is that the signs and wonders stopped, but the ministry gifts continue.
While he's more Calvinist than not, I think, I've also heard from him what I thought was one of the most balanced teachings on the topic of election.
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
The church has gotten away from its main purpose and is more of a show than a body. but we still should not forsake it
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
The church has gotten away from its main purpose and is more of a show than a body. but we still should not forsake it
Speaking for your own church, I suppose, certainly not mine! It's not show, though we do meet in a theater! It's body ministering to body.
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I am speaking of church in general.
My church went back to the NT model of having house groups. all combined to form a city church..
How many churches have you visited?
BTW . . . do you know the very first church was a mega-church? In Antioch. They were a "considerable multitude". The word for those who came to Jesus for healing was "multitude". With the adjective, this is more people, likely many thousand at the least.
Much love!
Nancy
Well-Known Member
"God's holy spirit would never produce a conglomerate of religions with such contradictory and inconsistent ideas on biblical issues."
No, God's Spirit would not but, Satan would, has all along and continues to throw in falsity with some truth mixed in. The "church" is SO splintered, we have lost touch with simple biblical principals. There is every stripe of "believer" out there and only Christ Himself can unite. People are too full of themselves, especially in the 1st world countries.
Personally, I subscribe to NO denomination. If the bible doesn't support it, then I simply move on. If we are open to hearing His Spirit, the truth will surface concerning the interpretation of His scriptures.
We humans have never and will never ever reach unanimity without Christ Himself intervening. We just keep the doors blockaded to Him and don't even realize it. How The Holy Spirit must grieve! We not only take Him for granted in the Western world but individually too!
Me no like brainwashing
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes, you are correct Marks! But, they were mostly broken down into "house churches" or at least small groups...?
It is, I personally find it impossible to really get to know most people at the mega churches, I know as I spent years going to one. "The Chapel" at Crosspoint in Lockport Ny. 5000 people, between 4 campuses. Oh how I wanted Christian friends! I had walked away from all I considered long time friends but, they were in the world and I had to pull away, or possibly be pulled down. But, was never able to connect with any of them from the church . shrug
I was in a large church being well fed with teaching, but I didn't really have opportunity to get to know others well, or to serve in some capacity. Aside from children's Sunday School, everyone starts there, that was their thinking. I'm not a "kid person". I'm the guy that children would see and run, or scream. Well, less so these days. There was the little girl who moved behind her mother's leg, "Mommy, it's Santa Clause!". Yep, I'm at that stage.Yes, you are correct Marks! But, they were mostly broken down into "house churches" or at least small groups...?
It is, I personally find it impossible to really get to know most people at the mega churches, I know as I spent years going to one. "The Chapel" at Crosspoint in Lockport Ny. 5000 people, between 4 campuses. Oh how I wanted Christian friends! I had walked away from all I considered long time friends but, they were in the world and I had to pull away, or possibly be pulled down. But, was ever able to connect with any of them from the church . shrug
But we moved to a smaller church, and now I'm in one smaller still.
I only know a few places where we are given hints about the early churches. We've already mentioned Antioch. Paul and others went "house to house". "Greet Nymphas, and the church in his house." The first meeting place was Solomon's Porch, the temple. At first, all the converts met there. 3000 from the first day, 5000 from the second day, after that, who knows? But they all met together at the temple porch, many 1000's.
Paul also rented a teaching hall from Tyranus, we have no idea it's capacity, or how many came. Oh, and Lydia and her friends met at the riverbank.
While it's not specified, there seem to me to be clues that there was a single church leadership group in each city. Whether that is true or not I can't say. Whether that means the believers all met in a single location I don't know.
Much love!
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
I admired Mr. MacArthur when he stood against California government overreach trying to shutter churches during Covid.
However, I do not agree with his other work.
I find him to be very divisive as his past actions had him calling out pastors by name. And then mocking and assuming their ministries. Either from his pulpit or in a public conference with other assembled members of our Christian clergy.
Very bad form, imo.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Makes one wonder how they did it without fancy speakers, microphones and movie screens
Never saw you in my minds eye as a "Santa" figure, lol.
I've had the best times in the small group Bible studies, church potluck, the small fellowship opportunities. And at the time I was a study leader, and ran the potluck, so it was all about fellowship and sharing and "facilitated discussion". I LIKE when we can all sit in a circle and talk about what the Bible says.
Much love!
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