Let me make a couple of comments before I address your points.
I think it would be fair and reasonable to ask that if you expect Christians to toss out a date which Christendom has held as that of the birth of Jesus,
officially for almost 1700 years, and one that three different Christians stated was the date being observed as that of his birth over 1900 years ago, then you should have some very strong and compelling evidence.
And at first blush, the arguments against Christmas seem persuasive … and many students are being swayed by them simply because the anti-Christmas crowd has pretty much had the field to themselves on the internet and even in these forums. But when you begin to examine the arguments, and weigh them in light of the actual Biblical and historical evidence, you find that the arguments against Christmas are in fact not true. In some cases, they are nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation (such as the weather being “too cold”), but in other cases the arguments are downright dishonest (such as the claim that Christians “adopted” a pagan holiday, or the claim that Jeremiah was talking about Christmas trees!). But that is changing, Christian scholarship is beginning to exert a presence on the internet and the truth of these things is beginning to make a mark.
Of course, there are those for whom no amount of evidence will change their views. Not because the evidence isn’t there, but because the real root of their dissent is not evidentiary … but philosophical, they begin with an anti-Christmas/anti-Easter/anti-Christendom prejudice and see and judge everything through that narrow focus convinced that all of Christendom is apostate and they alone (or rather their board of directors) have all the truth.
And for the past 20 years I have seen the proliferation of their viewpoint on the internet and on Christian forums like this. And those views have been picked up and popularized by well-meaning but unfortunately uninformed Christians. But that is changing, slowly but surely, because this is not a new area of study, it’s just new to this generation. But volumes have been written on this subject, and the historical record is quite extensive. So if the Lord allows, and if you are willing, we’ll look at some more of the “evidence” and you, and anyone who might be reading our meager offerings, can judge for himself.
FHII said:
You seem to fail to realize why I talk about snow in that area. I do so in protest to your portraying the weather as you do … 42/57 and “nice”
FHII, I’m not “portraying” the weather as 42/57. That is actual weather data. The truth is the winters in Bethlehem are not too cold for sheep or shepherds to be in the fields. The truth is the Bible actually records a shepherd being in the fields tending sheep year round in an even colder climate than Bethlehem. And the truth is historical records state specifically that there were temple flocks in the fields of Bethlehem year round.
This isn’t opinion. This is actual evidence. But you reject this evidence for what? Can you cite Biblical or historical evidence to the contrary? No. And yet you dismiss this evidence for no good reason, except that you are convinced it cannot be true.
But a little more evidence that winters in Judaea are not as bad as your are portraying them to be, and again, this is Biblical evidence, which to my mind is the strongest and in some cases irrefutable evidence.
I assume that you are aware that on the first sabbath after Passover there was a special offering made. The first ripe sheaf of barley, which the law required be grown at Jerusalem, was harvested and offered. That was the beginning of the Feast of Firstfruits, also called the Feast of Weeks because it began the 7-week period of the grain harvest which concluded 7 full weeks later, or after 49 days, on Pentecost, which means “fiftieth,” (also called the Feast of Conclusion because it concluded the weeks) when the last of the grain crops was harvested and the first ripe sheaves of wheat were offered in the temple.
These grain crops were sown in the fall! They grew over winter, and were harvested in spring (for the early maturing crops such as barley) and early summer (for the later maturing crops such as wheat). The whole calendar revolved around this early harvest of barley. If the barley was not sufficiently mature at the end of Adar for it to be ripe in two weeks at Passover, then an extra month was added to the calendar, Adar II.
Now if the climate is such that people can grow crops in winter in Judaea nourished by the winter rains, how do you figure the shepherds wouldn’t have their flocks in the fields eating all the green grass that was also nourished by the rains? These same hills and valleys were barren of grass in summer, because there was no rain, but in winter the hills and valleys were green with grasses and wildflowers.
Being a gardener I have a special fondness for wildflowers and have studied the wildflowers of Israel, some of which I have been able to purchase and include in my own gardens. Here’s what one Israeli wildflower website has to say about it:
"24 January, 2012
The winter rains in Israel began auspiciously early this season—and the hilltops and forests of Israel almost immediately started to turn green and regain their cool-weather lushness. Wildflower blooms began in earnest in December, on their way to peaking in late February or early March.
Every week brings more flowers, blooming in a predictable order. They’re truly like old friends returning for a visit.
The vibrant red of the anemone (kalanit) can be spotted from a distance. This common flower is uncommonly beautiful, and it is one of winter’s earliest blooms. There are also purple and white varieties."
http://www.galileenutritionals.com/Winter-rains-bring-wildflowers-on-the-way-to-Jerusalem
Check it out for yourself. This photo was taken about 15 miles north of Jerusalem, in January, which is actually colder and rainier than December.
So don’t think you have exhausted the research possibilities on winter weather in Judaea and can make a really informed judgment yet.
FHII said:
You have barely acknowledged the differences between modern day living and that of 6 BC.
Unless you are a global warming alarmist, the weather hasn’t changed much since 6 B.C., and 42 degrees in 6 B.C. is no colder than 42 degrees in 2013.
FHII said:
Jacob getting frostbitten while caring for Laban’s sheep can not be used to support the
I beg to differ. I think Jacob being out in the fields year round with the sheep was probably normal practice for sheep herding. Can you offer any Biblical evidence that it wasn’t the regular practice? No? What then? You prefer to assume it wasn’t regular practice so you can justify dismissing the evidence? Come on now FHII. And the fact that Haran is 417 miles
north of Bethlehem means it was even colder there than at Bethlehem. So if Jacob could endure frosty nights out in the fields with his sheep in a colder climate that argues against it being too cold in Bethlehem, 400 miles south in a desert region!
FHII said:
This brings up the topic of “Temple Flocks”. Special Sheep watched over by special shepherds. First of all, the destination of a few of the sheep was special, but the sheep themselves weren’t special or extraordinary.
I honestly do not know of anyone who has ever tried to say these were special or extraordinary sheep. They were plain old sheep, although it must be added that they did have to pass Levitical inspection: any blemish, deformity, injury, scarring, disease or infestation would render them unacceptable for sacrifice.
And you have to realize that we aren’t talking here about “a few” sheep. Animals for sacrifice was the number one import commodity of Judaea during the 2nd Temple period. Literally thousands of animals were required for the Temple cultus. Think of it. Just for the morning and evening sacrifice alone, a year-old lamb was offered, morning and evening, day after day, regardless of weather, every day of the year. That’s 708 lambs per year,
just for the daily sacrifice. That doesn’t count all the other public sacrifices and offerings, 7 lambs on the Sabbath, every Sabbath for another 350 per year, and then all the festival sacrifices and offerings. And that’s just the public sacrifices and offerings paid for out of the temple treasury, it doesn’t count all the animals needed for private sacrifices. Josephus states that as many as a quarter million lambs were offered on Passover alone! So we are quite literally talking about thousands and thousands of animals year in and year out!
So we’re not talking about Bethlehem being the site where “a few” sheep were pastured. We’re talking about thousands of animals over the course of a year being gathered and inspected and held until they were needed in the city. The shepherd’s field at Migdal Eder near Bethlehem would be more of a stockyard than a regular pasture, which explains why it was located well away from Jerusalem, and why there would be a “watchtower” for flocks of sheep when normally sheepherding was a nomadic existence. Have you ever been near a stockyard with even a few hundred animals? If so you can well understand why the Rabbis had these flocks and herds kept far enough away from the city to avoid the stench, and yet close enough to be able to bring them to the city easily. And all these thousands of animals had to be inspected by priests before they could be sold. I don’t think the average Christian really comprehends what big business the Temple Cultus was. So saying, you might find this article interesting:
http://www.livescience.com/39307-jerusalem-animal-sacrifice-found.html
FHII said:
In other words, some sheep were brought from outside the area.
That’s true. In fact, according to several sources, animals for sacrificial use was the primary import commodity of Judea during the 2nd Temple period. Now certainly some pilgrims coming to the festivals would bring their own animals, but those who lived very far afield would find it much easier to just purchase an already inspected and approved animal at the Temple rather than having to lead and feed and water an animal on the trip. In fact, tables were set up in Solomon’s Porch, the eastern portico of the temple, expressly for the purpose of selling sacrificial animals to the worshippers. It was big business and the high priestly family of Annas was rich from the trade. Why, they even sold the blood and effluvia that was washed from the temple courts and collected into a cesspit as fertilizer for the King’s garden!
FHII said:
In short, as far as I’ve seen, the whole concept of special flocks remaining all year around Jerusalem is built on circumstantial reasoning and very little (and questionable) historical fact,
First of all, I don’t think anyone has tried to suggest that flocks “remained all year” in the fields of Bethlehem. Rather, because of the continual need for sacrifices there would have been flocks in the fields year round, and huge flocks and herds in the days before and during the big festivals. But I find it curious that you would take what actual evidence does exist and so easily dismiss it. It’s not as if you have any evidence to the contrary.
FHII said:
which doesn’t answer some pertinent questions. Two examples: The weather is bad enough (despite your protests to that notion) that all other sheep are driven elsewhere,
But you’ve got that backwards FHII. It was the summer dry season when the flocks had to be driven “elsewhere” because there wasn’t any grass or water in the Judean hill country during the dry season. Read the description by Josephus, and he was a priest in Jerusalem so he was certainly an authority on the subject. The grasses would all die, the waterholes would dry up, even the ground itself would crack open from the drought. But then the fall rains came and the hills and valleys turned green and throughout the winter grass and water was available in Judaea. Either you or, most likely your sources, have gotten the seasons in Judea completely backwards.
FHII said:
There is no shortage amongst the various pro-Christmas websites and yourself included about Midgal Eder. Frankly, I see it as much talk about very little. There are two things I have concluded in my research of Midgal Eder: 1. It pinpoints the location of Jesus’ birth (which isn’t in dispute and isn’t the only Biblical prophecy that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem); and 2. It was the outlying landmark of where these “temple flocks” would be. In other words, a flock a couple of hundred yards beyond Midgal Eder wasn’t what you are calling “temple flocks”. So what about those shepherds that Gabriel spoke to? Guess what, they weren’t from Bethlehem and it can only be implied that they were these “special temple flock shepherds”.
I’m afraid you have made (or repeated) a few mistakes. The Migdal Eder isn’t where Jesus was born, he was born in Bethlehem. The Watchtower of the Flock (Micah 4:8) is where the shepherds kept watch over the temple flocks. It wasn’t in Bethlehem, but according to all the evidence, lay on the road to Jerusalem about a mile north of Bethlehem. After Gabriel’s visit the shepherds went “to” Bethlehem in search of the newborn Jesus so Jesus could not have been born
at Migdal Eder.
And second, Migdal Eder wasn’t the outlying landmark of where the Temple flocks would be located, you (or your source) have misunderstood that Talmudic passage. Migdal Eder was the outlying limit that marked the distance from Jerusalem in all directions within which any stray or lost or unclaimed animals were to be confiscated for Temple use, males for burnt-offerings and females for peace-offerings, or if it was within 30 days of Passover, any strays would be used for Passover. That wasn’t a commentary on the temple flock, or its limits, but on stray or lost animals found within those limits being designated for temple use.
FHII said:
At this point I’d like to point out something that I think you are well aware of, but perhaps don’t want to talk about. The 7 previous points of discussion, as well as many others I may have missed are all attempting to prove one point: “that shepherds could’ve been in the fields surrounding Bethlehem in December”. What they don’t do is actually prove a December nativity. Such discussion is only an attempt to remove a roadblock, and frankly, I don’t believe it does! So you can scour the area around Bethlehem for a sheep in December, 5 BC and yell “ewereka” if you actually do find one, but what have you proven? Only that you have a 1 in 365 chance of being right about December 25th and a 1 in 4 chance of getting even getting the season right.
I have never contended that any of this “proves” a December birth. What this
proves is that the arguments
againsta December birth do not have any evidence to support them, but in fact, actually contradicts what evidence there is. You can say all this evidence doesn’t prove anything and dismiss it if that is your wish, but you can’t offer any evidence that contradicts it.
Continued ...
The system will not allow me to post the remainder of this note so I'll have to return and try again later.
Meanwhile, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
