Christmas

[Suhar]

That's your response to someone who made an effort to treat you as a serious Bible student?

There is nothing in the Bible about the date, student of the Bible would know that. Student of denominational mysticism does not.

 

[Pilgrimer]

There is nothing in the Bible about the date, student of the Bible would know that. Student of denominational mysticism does not.

You were the one who said, "Shepherds are not with sheep on pastures in December," and I started with all the Scriptural evidence and then included historical information and even meterological data that proves what you said is simply not true.

Your response should have been to offer your Scriptural and historical and any other evidence you have to support your statement.

Care to try again? What evidence do you have that shepherds would not be in the fields on Christmas eve? Is that what your denomination taught you?

 

[Suhar]

If one thing is clear from this topic is that you do not have any evidence other then denominational mysticism.

If Jesus wanted His followers to celebrate His birthday He would tell them when, don't you think? At least give a clue about it's significance in some way. Maybe turn water into wine on His birthday party and not wedding of some unnamed people?

 

[Pilgrimer]

If one thing is clear from this topic is that you do not have any evidence other then denominational mysticism.

No Suhar, what is clear is that you cannot offer a shred of evidence that shepherds wouldn't be in the fields in December.

If Jesus wanted His followers to celebrate His birthday He would tell them when, don't you think? At least give a clue about it's significance in some way. Maybe turn

If God didn't want Jesus' birth to be remembered, why did He include it in the Gospels?

But enough of the spitting contest. What other problems do you have with the December 25 date? But this time how about limiting your comments to what you can actually offer some evidence for?

 

[Suhar]

If God didn't want Jesus' birth to be remembered, why did He include it in the Gospels?

Wow! You do not know answer to that?

So that we know that Jesus was born as a man!

On what day it happpened does not seem to matter to God but fact of it happening should matter to everybody.


.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Wow! You do not know answer to that?

So that we know that Jesus was born as a man!

You mean you wouldn't know Jesus was a man if the Gospels had not recorded his birth? The multitudes of Jews knew he was a man, so did the Romans, and they didn't know the story of his birth. Mark and John didn't include it in their Gospels, do you think maybe they didn't know he was a man?

On what day it happpened does not seem to matter to God but fact of it happening should matter to everybody.

The day did seem to matter to God: "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

But come now Suhar, this is about evidence for or against a December 25 birth. Where's your evidence? Bring it out and let's take a look at it.

 

[Suhar]

The day did seem to matter to God: "Unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
.

If it mattered to God then why He did not say which day "this day" is?

You mean you wouldn't know Jesus was a man if the Gospels had not recorded his birth? The multitudes of Jews knew he was a man, so did the Romans, and they didn't know the story of his birth. Mark and John didn't include it in their Gospels, do you think maybe they didn't know he was a man?
.

You do not believe that Bible is a Word of God? You need words of men instead?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Look Suhar, I've got some downtime with the flu and I really don't want to waste it fending off your pointed arrows. I have been researching this issue of the historical evidence for the date of the nativity for over 20 years and I'm always willing to look at new or additional evidence. So if you have something by way of historical information to offer, please do so.

 

[Mungo]

Pilgrimer,

Thank you for your posts in this thread. They are most illuminating.

Mungo

 

[FHII]

Look Suhar, I've got some downtime with the flu and I really don't want to waste it fending off your pointed arrows. I have been researching this issue of the historical evidence for the date of the nativity for over 20 years and I'm always willing to look at new or additional evidence. So if you have something by way of historical information to offer, please do so.

Get well soon, but what you've offered is not convincing when looked at all the evidence. You've got three obscure references and a bunch of maybes. The fact still remain that every credible encyclopedia and other sources disagree with you. Your picture????? No way of knowing when it was taken.

Overall, the evidence in the Bible states Jesus was not born in the winter. There weren't shepherds in the field nor would anyone travel long distances (as Mary and Joseph did) during that time. Jesus simply wasn't born in December.

 

[Suhar]

Look Suhar, I've got some downtime with the flu and I really don't want to waste it fending off your pointed arrows. I have been researching this issue of the historical evidence for the date of the nativity for over 20 years and I'm always willing to look at new or additional evidence. So if you have something by way of historical information to offer, please do so.

20 years and you have yet to find any evidence at all! (Maybe it is time to stop looking for something that is not there?) At least you did not share anything that can remotely qualify to be an evidence.

 

[FHII]

Get well soon, but what you've offered is not convincing when looked at all the evidence. You've got three obscure references and a bunch of maybes. The fact still remain that every credible encyclopedia and other sources disagree with you. Your picture????? No way of knowing when it was taken.

Overall, the evidence in the Bible states Jesus was not born in the winter. There weren't shepherds in the field nor would anyone travel long distances (as Mary and Joseph did) during that time. Jesus simply wasn't born in December.

I wrote this post pretty quick as I only had a few minutes on my break. I was looking to edit it some, but for some reason I cannot. Pilgrimmer, by all means get some rest if needed and take your time answering.

Like I said you have three obscure references. I call them obscure because surely they would've been mentioned in the several encyclopedias, books and larger websites (for lack of a better term) like history.com and even wikipedia. I listed another website above which didn't list them either. Why is that? I have to give due credit.... They are there and while I haven't read the documents myself, I haven't seen anyone discredit them as false, forgeries or anything of the sort.

Based on the evidence you have given, I still don't see evidence as to how they came up with that date. I figure your point is that they were local, and it was passed down word of mouth (had to have been since it wasn't written in any apostlic epistle or gospel. So absolutely God and his servants (Matthew and Luke specifically) wanted us to know the story. But if they --especially Luke -- knew the season or date they would've said exactly what it was. Thus, I don't believe they (those who came up with those dates) heard it, even in a second or third hand account, from the Apostles or Luke.

As for the picture you provided, I have to back up on that a little. You mentioned it was in the Library of congress? Ok, I'm a bit too busy to go down there and have a look, and I couldn't find anything on the web about the pic. Speaking of which, I find many more websites and prose that states that shepherds would not be in the field than I do saying they would have been. All websites and web articles (which are strongly dedicated to defending 12/25 as the date of Jesus' birth) only state things like, "hey... it ain't so cold there in December!" That's not evidence, that is simply questioning if its true, without taking into account that it's not only 40-60 degrees outside, but also raining 10-15 days out of the month.

Now Pilgrimmer, seriously with all due respect, are you going to argue with the fact that I said "Israeli shepherds" and that doesn't include "Palastinian Shepherds" Seriously? It's not like I said Wisconsin shepherds vs Florida shepherds, is it? Nuff said on that?

I stick to the testimony of my friend (who is also my Pastor), the many sources on the web that back that up, and the notion that shepherds would not be in the field in December.

There is the question of paganism having an influence on the date. Again, while none of the encyclopedias or other places I look say, "Yes, definitely", it still remains a strong possibility. Saying, "well the festival for pagan gods was 3 or 4 days earlier" doesn't dispute it. Furthermore, both John and Paul prophesied that hereseys would come in and even that they were already creeping in at the time they said it. So if anyone states that early Christians didn't adopt pagan practices (real ones didn't, but I'm speaking in general), it goes against what the Apostles said would happen.

One last thing that I haven't seen you address. It was tax time. The whole world (we can read that to mean the Roman Empire) was taxed and told to go back to their home town for a census and to pay their taxes. Why would this be in December? Travel would've been difficult and I even have a Bible reference for that: Jesus said "Pray that your flight be not during winter or the Sabbath" [perhaps not an exact quote]. To require folks to travel during this month to pay the gov't would've been a colossal failure. I mean.... Obama might have tried it, but most rulers don't set decrees that will fail, especially when it comes to them getting money.

Mind you, this isn't just the middle east, it's all of the Roman empire, including Turkey, Greece, parts of nothern Europe as well. Travel was muddy, cold and unbearable in Israel at the time, but literally impossible in other parts of the Roman Empire. Furthermore, why demand a tax when there is no harvest, shipping is at a low and no ones making big money?

Again I do acknowledge your references, but with many questions that don't add up. I do hope you feel better and please take your time in answering.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrimer,

Thank you for your posts in this thread. They are most illuminating.

Mungo

The truth is always illuminating.

If this is a subject you are interested in then bear with me, we have only just barely scratched the surface, there is a tremendous amount of information available to us that will shed ever more light on the nativity.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Dodo_David]

Yea.... The problem is I know a man who actually went to Israel.... Asked real, live Israeli shepherds if sheep are in the fields in December. They said no, they are brought in.

The late German science reporter Werner Keller confirms the above in his book The Bible As History. He cites historical and meteorological evidence that the Bethlehem shepherds would have had their sheep indoors by the month of December.

 

[Suhar]

Poor Pilgrimer just cannot admit to himself that he wasted 20 years of his life reading, studying mountains of mystical writings all to receach timing of celebration of event that does not have to be celebrated.
If Jesus wanted to celebrate His birthday on the certain day of the year He would say so. Instead we are to celebrate His birthday, death and resurrection every day of our lives, every second of it.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Thank you FHII, for a kind and thoughtful response.

Like I said you have three obscure references.

You didn’t comment on the Scriptural evidence. I would think that would be considered the most weighty. Jacob spent 20 years tending Laban’s flocks, and he speaks of being consumed by the drought during the day and the frost by night, so there is evidence from the Scripture that the weather in Isarel was not so cold that shepherds were not able to be in the fields with their flocks on frosty winter nights, Jacob was.

But FHII, what may be “obscure” references to you are in fact very well known primary sources for New Testament historians. The Jewish Talmudic Literature is an extensive collection of detailed information about life in Israel during the 2nd Temple period. It not only gives us tremendous insight into the details of religious observance, it also gives us a broad understanding of 1st century Jewish beliefs and practices. If you have any interest in New Testament history, these are definitely works you will want to have access to.

Based on the evidence you have given, I still don't see evidence as to how they came up with that date.

But FHII, I haven’t even begun to share all the evidence with you. I only offered you my opinion that the details of the nativity account had to have come from Mary, and that I do not believe for a moment that Mary would not have remembered the date of Jesus’ birth. And it was obviously known by Luke because he says that when John baptized Jesus, that Jesus “began to be” about 30 years old.(Luke 3:23) Now how would Luke have known Jesus had just turned 30 unless he knew Jesus had just had a birthday?

So I don’t think there is any justification for assuming that no one knew and no one cared when Jesus was born, I just think they considered the events and circumstances surrounding Jesus’ birth to have been far more important than the day, or even the month, in which it occurred. But there are so many historical details that are included in the nativity account that although we cannot say with any certitude what day Jesus was born, we certainly can bring all the pieces to bear and narrow down the possibilities.

And as I’ve said, I have looked at a tremendous amount of that information and from everything I have seen it supports the date of December 25, 5 B.C. as that of the date of Jesus’ birth. Certainly there is no historically tenable grounds on which to refute the date which reaches back into the very earliest years of the faith.

I find many more websites and prose that states that shepherds would not be in the field than I do saying they would have been.

But 20 years ago you would have found very little about it at all, except for what was coming out of the Watchtower Society publications. But those theories are catching hold and becoming very popular. But when has truth necessarily been what’s popular?

I stick to the testimony of my friend (who is also my Pastor), the many sources on the web that back that up, and the notion that shepherds would not be in the field in December.

As you wish. But that’s not the end of the matter. Even if it were true that shepherds could not tend their flocks in the fields on December nights, you still have to address the evidence that the flocks at Bethlehem were not regular sheep being pastured, but were being held at Bethlehem until they were inspected and then driven up to the city for sacrifice. In which case, they would be in the fields year-round as sacrifices were offered daily, including during the week of Chanukah, which in the year of the Lord’s birth was December 19 – 26.

There is the question of paganism having an influence on the date.

Again, there is much to be said on that subject, including looking at documents such as letters written and edicts issued by Roman Emperors who specifically address that very subject (which I suspect you’ve never heard of either?), but let’s deal with the birth itself first, okay?

Saying, "well the festival for pagan gods was 3 or 4 days earlier" doesn't dispute it.

I would like to make one comment on that score. A Christian holiday falling near a pagan holiday does not mean the one is an adoption of the other. The same thing is being said about Easter. But if you are perchance a Jehovah’s Witness, I’m sure that would not trouble you. But you should know that the same logic is used to discount the Bible itself, saying that because the spring and fall feasts occur near the spring and fall equinox the Jews adopted them from pagan spring and fall equinox celebrations. And they go even further and claim that since there are some similarities between the Law of Moses and the Code of Hammurabi, the Jews adopted their legal code from the Babylonians, which they also claim about the Biblical account of Noah claiming it is a knockoff of the old Babylonia Gilgamesh epoch, and on and on. Do you see how people will use even the most superficial circumstances to try to discredit the Bible? So be very careful in accepting such a faulty premise. Just because Christmas falls near winter solstice celebrations is no more an indictment of Christmas than Passover falling near spring equinox celebrations is an indictment of Passover.

Furthermore, both John and Paul prophesied that hereseys would come in and even that they were already creeping in at the time they said it. So if anyone states that early Christians didn't adopt pagan practices (real ones didn't, but I'm speaking in general), it goes against what the Apostles said would happen.

True, which is why I have spent so much time looking into the evidence for Christmas. Personally, it really doesn’t matter to me when Jesus was born, I am just eternally grateful that he was. But as a young Christian I was stung with the accusation of idolatry for celebrating Christmas and my heart’s desire was that I try, to the best of my ability, to discover the truth of the matter so that my practice, whichever way things might shake out, would be in keeping with a clear conscience.

One last thing that I haven't seen you address.

My friend, so far I have only addressed one thing, shepherds being the fields at night. We haven’t even scratched the surface of all the evidence. It would be easier for me to start with the beginning of the nativity story, which is the star oracle of Balaam, and his connection with Daniel and the Zoroastrian Magi. And there we have some archaeological evidence to help shed some light on Matthew’s account. But I will follow your lead and we’ll address things that you consider to be important, or troublesome.

It was tax time. The whole world (we can read that to mean the Roman Empire) was taxed and told to go back to their home town for a census and to pay their taxes. Why would this be in December? Travel would've been difficult and I even have a Bible reference for that: Jesus said "Pray that your flight be not during winter or the Sabbath" [perhaps not an exact quote]. To require folks to travel during this month to pay the gov't would've been a colossal failure. I mean.... Obama might have tried it, but most rulers don't set decrees that will fail, especially when it comes to them getting money.

Mind you, this isn't just the middle east, it's all of the Roman empire, including Turkey, Greece, parts of nothern Europe as well. Travel was muddy, cold and unbearable in Israel at the time, but literally impossible in other parts of the Roman Empire. Furthermore, why demand a tax when there is no harvest, shipping is at a low and no ones making big money?

First of all, a census was not conducted everywhere at the same time, nor was it conducted in the same way everywhere. In the Roman territories, where the bureaucratic machinery was already set up and functioning, a census went much more quickly and smoothly. But in the provinces client kingdoms it was another story. And in a volatile kingdom like Judaea and Galilee it was like setting sparks to kindling. The Romans discovered that when, in 6 A.D., Quirnius came to Judaea to take an accounting of the property of Archelaus, son of Herod, after he was deposed and Judaea was made a province. The Romans were so foolish as to think to dispense with the time-consuming and more difficult Jewish manner of conducting a census and there ensued a bloody riot. It spawned the revolutionaries called Zealots who later led the country into a bloody war that destroyed the Jewish state and brought the Mosaic economy to an end.

But Herod, for all his madness, was not stupid. The census of 6/5 B.C. under Herod was conducted not according to the Roman manner, but according to the Jewish manner. The Law of Moses stipulated that the people were not to be numbered, but rather, a half shekel was to be given by every one 20 years old and up. (Exodus 30:11-16) And second, the Law of Moses also stipulated that a census must be done according to tribes. Thus each Israelite had to travel to the ancestral seat of his tribal clan. For Joseph and Mary, being of the house of David, that meant Bethlehem.

The decree was issued for the census in 8 B.C. and we know from historical records that it was implemented province by province. Provincial Italy was taxed in 8/7 B.C. and Rome itself in 7/6 B.C. Josephus mentions the oath of fidelity the Jews were required to take to both Caesar Augustus and King Herod, which would have been in the winter of 6 B.C., but 6000 Pharisees refused and it led to events that threw the court into turmoil and directly led to Herod executing his heir and son Antipater just before his own death.

With all these troubles at court and in his kingdom, and having obtained permission from Saturninus, governor of Syria, to send an embassy to Rome to seek reconciliation with Augustus, Herod would have delayed the census until finally he was obliged to carry it out in December of 5 B.C.

Why December? Consider this – The economy, and therefore Herod’s tax revenue, was based on agriculture. The agricultural year began in the spring and early summer months with the barley, wheat and other grain harvests. Then the heat set in, grasses began to wither and die, water sources dried up, and fruits began to set. In late summer was the vintage. Then in fall came the olive harvest. As soon as the rains began, the farmers went into the fields to begin to sow the crops.

You must understand, the harvest seasons in Israel were not like they are in other areas. Here in the U.S. we plant in spring and harvest in summer and fall. Not so in ancient Israel. There they sowed their crops in fall, they grew over winter nourished by the winter rains, and they harvested in the spring.

So from the time of the barley harvest in the spring until the planting was finished in November, the only agriculturally non-productive time was during the heat of the summer, when it would be impossible to have people traveling back and forth across the country with no water and in such heat, and in January and February, when the rainfall is the greatest.

So December would actually be the most sensible time. The crops were sown and there was no further agricultural activity until the spring. The weather would still be mild, and the rains were still light. The fields and hill were cloaked in green grasses after the long dry season. December weather is about the same as that in March when Passover occurs, a few degrees cooler and rainfall just a little heavier. Travel was not a problem in December, and we know that because Jews went up to Jerusalem from all over the country in late December to celebrate the feast of Dedication (Chanukah) John 10:22.

Again, this is not all the information that is available, there is much, much more but I can’t post it all so I’ll try to confine my remarks to points you make.

Look at these pictures of a Christmas Eve celebration and parade in Bethlehem and tell me again how it’s so bitterly cold and wet that travel would be difficult and wooly sheep would have to be brought in out of the fields?

http://www.travelujah.com/blogs/entry/Christmas-Eve-Celebrations-in-the-Capital-of-Christmas-Bethlehem

 

[FHII]

Again, you fail to impress me with your rebuttal. Sorry, and hope you feel better soon.

 

[Suhar]

Again, you fail to impress me with your rebuttal. Sorry, and hope you feel better soon.

Poor guy thinks that by writing long essays using complicated words and very obscure mythical references he will wow people into beleiving a myth he constructed in his mind.

 

[tom55]

Poor guy thinks that by writing long essays using complicated words and very obscure mythical references he will wow people into beleiving a myth he constructed in his mind.

I agree with you. In those very long essays I did not see any concrete evidence supporting his alleged facts. Any reasonable scholar or historian has not been able to point to a specific date. But maybe it was pointed out in one of those VERY LONG essays and I missed it.

 

[teamventure]

i am not afraid of reclaiming pagan celebrations for God. Are you, Vale?

the word of God says, "who can make a clean thing out of an unclean? no one." Job 14:4
as far as celebrating Christmas. I'll just leave the pagan parts out. like getting a tree n stuff.

i'm a bit troubled that the 25 is tamuzes birthday.