Christmas

[Mungo]

i'm a bit troubled that the 25 is tamuzes birthday.

Who says 25th Dec is Tanmmuz' birthday.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica there were two main festivals associtaed with Tammuz, his marriage (Feb-March) and his death (March-April). No mention of a birthday celebration.

Since Tammuz was a pastoral deity is is unlikely that anyone would ceberate anything to do with him in the middle of winter.

 

[FHII]

Nobody likes long essays and if you can keep it shorter, it's better. However guys... I'm not against long essays if that's what is needed to make a point. I actually was reading Pilgrimmer's posts and looking into what he was saying, but wasn't finding anything that clearly supported his position.

So I don't blame him for the long posts (especially since I was asking for an explanation), but they just weren't working. There simply is no point in continuing.

 

[Pilgrimer]

My apologies for assuming you might find all this historical information interesting.
I will confine my comments to just the facts, but at least I am presenting facts. So far, the only evidence given against Christmas is “you said somebody said that somebody said.”

The priestly services during the 2nd Temple period were conducted by 24 "courses" of priests who each served from Sabbath to Sabbath in order and then the rotation began again. (1 Chronicles 24:7-19; Luke 1:5, 8)

On the day the Temple was destroyed, the 9th/10th Ab, 70 A.D., the 1st course of Jehoiarib was on duty (see Tractate Taanith, on Feasting and Fast-Days at 29 a and also Josephus at Wars vi. 4, 1, 5). Calculating backwards to the year before Jesus' birth, the course of Abia to which Zecharias belonged was on duty from October 2 to October 9. That year the Feast of Tabernacles began on October 9 and all 24 courses of priests were required to be on duty for the three annual pilgrim festivals. Assuming that Elizabeth conceived shortly after Zecharias arrived home, that would push the conception of John the Baptist into the latter half of October.

Count forward to Elizabeth’s 6th month for Mary’s conception brings us to the latter half of March. Christianity has observed March 25 as the date of the conception since ancient times. Count forward another 3 months for the birth of John the Baptist and we arrive at the latter half of June. June 24 has been observed as the birth date of John the Baptist also since ancient times. Count forward another 6 months and Jesus would have been born the latter half of December.

And FHII, I am a very honest person, and from the beginning I have stated, accurately, that all the historical evidence "supports" the December birth. I never said there is any data that proves his date of birth. But as in most cases where judgment is required and no uncontestable proof is available, judgment must be based on the weight of evidence. And the weight is on the side of Christianity, and history.

Who says 25th Dec is Tanmmuz' birthday.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica there were two main festivals associtaed with Tammuz, his marriage (Feb-March) and his death (March-April). No mention of a birthday celebration.

Since Tammuz was a pastoral deity is is unlikely that anyone would ceberate anything to do with him in the middle of winter.

Hello Mungo,

Actually, most of what we know about Tammuz comes from the work of Sumerian scholar Samuel Noah Kramer. He’s the one who finally deciphered the Sumerian language and translated thousands of tablets, including those from Nippur and specifically Tablet NI4886 which gives the account of the annual 6-day death fast and mourning of Tammuz. This was the “weeping” of idolatrous Jewish women mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14. It took place in June. In fact, the 4th month (June) of the Jewish calendar is called “Tammuz.”

I’m sure long words don’t present an obstacle to you so perhaps you will enjoy a few lines from Milton on the subject:

Tammuz came next behind,
Whose annual wound in Lebanon allur'd
The Syrian Damsels to lament his fate
In amorous ditties all a Summers day,
While smooth Adonis from his native Rock
Ran purple to the Sea, suppos'd with blood
Of Tammuz yearly wounded: the Love-tale
Infected Sion’s daughters with like heat,
Whose wanton passions in the sacred Porch
Ezekiel saw, when by the Vision led
His eye survey'd the dark Idolatries
Of alienated Judah

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
P.S. You're right Mungo, there was never any birth celebration for Tammuz, in fact, there's nothing in the tablets about his birth at all.

 

[teamventure]

Who says 25th Dec is Tanmmuz' birthday.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica there were two main festivals associtaed with Tammuz, his marriage (Feb-March) and his death (March-April). No mention of a birthday celebration.

Since Tammuz was a pastoral deity is is unlikely that anyone would ceberate anything to do with him in the middle of winter.

ya know what i think that was easter that was his birthday. oh well.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Overall, the evidence in the Bible states Jesus was not born in the winter. There weren't shepherds in the field nor would anyone travel long distances (as Mary and Joseph did) during that time. Jesus simply wasn't born in December.

Take just a couple of minutes to stand in Manger Square on Christmas Eve and look around. Notice how the people are dressed, children in long sleeves, people in light weight jackets. What you don't see is people bundled up against harsh, freezing temperatures and trudging through several feet of snow. The truth is there is absolutely no reason that shepherds would not be in the fields with their flocks on Christmas Eve, or that the weather would present any impediment to travel at all. Jews traveled from all over Judaea and Galilee to Jerusalem, 5 miles north of Bethlehem, for the winter festival of Chanukah, even Jesus did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1YAKUlztvg

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[FHII]

Shall I suggest you google to see photos of snow in Jerusalem? I've seen a nice one of a snowman outside the Dome of the Rock! Photographs aren't going to convince me of something that happened 2K years ago.

I do request one reference from you. I am short on time, so perhaps I'm mistaken.... Did you say that Josephus wrote that Herod ordered a census or tax in December of 5 BC? If so, may I have a reference to that..... I can't seem to find that.

Also.... You mentioned that it is traditional (again, I don't have time to find the exact quote) that some folks believe that March 25th is the conception date of Mary. How is it that they came up with that?

 

[Dodo_David]

I don't understand why people are fussing over a trivial matter.

The New Testament doesn't give the date of the Messiah's birth, and, IMHO, that date isn't relevant to anything vital.

 

[aspen]

It comes down to the fear of getting it wrong. It is a plague within Christianity - shutting down abstract thought, promoting terror in response to all symbols and paralyzing sanctification. All that is left in the wake of this reductionistic approach towards theology is a concrete, legalistic, sterile, 'better safe than sorry' , fire insurance, enemic, conceptual faith. Unfortunately for practicianers of such faith, who believe hiding behind RIGHT is the point of being a Christian, this road only leads to spiritual starvation and desolation, practiced by the most desperate and fearful; Jehovah's Witnesses certainly qualify.

 

[Rach1370]

Fear.....Isn't Christianity supposed to free people? Which would, I assume, lead to the death of fear.
I truly don't understand the fussing about Christmas Day. About 99% of Christians celebrate it....and the thought that God couldn't correct something his followers are doing to celebrate his rescue of us, really doesn't speak much to his Sovereignty, does it?
If God had a problem with it, it would be specifically forbidden in scripture, or we would have heard about it by now...one way or the other. God always works all things for his glory. So the conclusion is that he is actually pleased we take time to celebrate Christ...that, or he is not all powerful, or perhaps that he has no interest in his people. Clearly that isn't true....so...celebrate I shall!

 

[Dodo_David]

Fear.....Isn't Christianity supposed to free people? Which would, I assume, lead to the death of fear.
I truly don't understand the fussing about Christmas Day. About 99% of Christians celebrate it....and the thought that God couldn't correct something his followers are doing to celebrate his rescue of us, really doesn't speak much to his Sovereignty, does it?
If God had a problem with it, it would be specifically forbidden in scripture, or we would have heard about it by now...one way or the other. God always works all things for his glory. So the conclusion is that he is actually pleased we take time to celebrate Christ...that, or he is not all powerful, or perhaps that he has no interest in his people. Clearly that isn't true....so...celebrate I shall!

I see nothing in the New Testament that forbids me from celebrating the birth of the Messiah on December 25th.

 

[aspen]

Fear.....Isn't Christianity supposed to free people? Which would, I assume, lead to the death of fear.
I truly don't understand the fussing about Christmas Day. About 99% of Christians celebrate it....and the thought that God couldn't correct something his followers are doing to celebrate his rescue of us, really doesn't speak much to his Sovereignty, does it?
If God had a problem with it, it would be specifically forbidden in scripture, or we would have heard about it by now...one way or the other. God always works all things for his glory. So the conclusion is that he is actually pleased we take time to celebrate Christ...that, or he is not all powerful, or perhaps that he has no interest in his people. Clearly that isn't true....so...celebrate I shall!

I agree - fear has no place within Christianity, but unfortunately it is often taught from the pulpit and witnessed by many people who are followers of Christ, but fear everything about life so they cling desperately to what they believe are the fundamentals of the faith, while condemning everything that falls outside their narrow pov.

 

[FHII]

Aspen, Dodo, Rach,

What makes you think it's fear? Why couldn't it be a desire to get it right? What about John 4:24 which says, "God is a spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."? God talks a lot about Truth, even to the point where Jesus said he was Truth.

Rach, you said, "Isn't Christianity supposed to free people?" Well, that's a debatable question! First, I've been freed from Christmas! Praise God! Second, the answer is "NO". We are free from the Law (yet we see a lot of people on this board who want to continue that bondage), but we are the Lord's free men (1 Cor 7:22). We are bought with a price and we are not our own.

Even if it was fear, so what? Psa 1:7, Pro 9:10 and 15:33 all talk about fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom. I know some might say, "well, fear in that sense means respect!" OK. Is it respectful to believe something that isn't true when God told you not to? Others might bring up 1 John 4:18, but that says there's no fear in love. Fine, but there is also no love without truth (that is, we are supposed to worship Him in truth and love).

So, I don't know if it is your intentions, but I don't intend to be labeled as "fearful" because I don't celebrate Christmas. I can turn it around on you.... Are you scared not to celebrate Christmas? What would all your coworkers and family think? I may look mean by asking that, but why would anyone insinuate someone doesn't celebrate Christmas because they are scared?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Shall I suggest you google to see photos of snow in Jerusalem? I've seen a nice one of a snowman outside the Dome of the Rock! Photographs aren't going to convince me of something that happened 2K years ago.

FHII, as I have said, I am a very honest person, and that includes not telling half truths. The picture you googled of a snowman on the Temple Mount would probably have been taken last January, when Jerusalem was hit with a rare snowstorm that dumped from 4 to 12 inches in northern Israel and Syria. I will trust that you were not intentionally trying to misrepresent that as the normal weather conditions in Jerusalem in winter? But just to clarify here’s a couple of links to put that snowy January day in Jerusalem in context …

http://www.livescience.com/26181-snow-in-jerusalem.html
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Jerusalem-of-white-Snow-falls-in-capital

But in addition to Jacob being out in the fields with the sheep on winter nights, you also have to address how it is that the Jews had no problem coming from all over Judaea and Galilee for the Feast of the Dedication (Chanukah) and most years that coincides with Christmas: “And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.” (John 10:22)

But also, if winters in Jerusalem, and therefore in Bethlehem, are so cold and snowy that woolly sheep can’t even be outside (which would have to be really brutal weather), why does Scripture describe winter thus: “For, lo, the winter is past, the rain over and gone.” (Song of Solomon 2:11) If your theory was correct, it would say the snow is over and gone.

As I have said from the beginning, normal winters in this temperate part of the Mediterranean are actually rainy and mild, nothing like those of Europe and the northern states of America. In fact, the winters are very similar to my own hometown of Mobile, Alabama, which is on the Gulf Coast. Our winters only last about 6 – 8 weeks, and are rainy with occasional drops down into the low 30’s, but then it warms right back up again. But once every 10 or 12 years we will get a rare snow event, and like Jerusalem, the whole city shuts down because, again like Jerusalem, we are simply not prepared for such weather, it happens so rarely.

But if the Scriptures I’ve cited, and the weather data and photos I’ve posted, and the historical sources that specifically speak of shepherding in Israel 2000 years ago and even address sheep in the fields of Bethlehem, if all that is not enough evidence to impress you, then pray tell us just what are you basing your opinion on, it must be some very strong evidence indeed? And please don’t say someone said that someone said, that’s called “hearsay” and it’s not evidence.

I do request one reference from you. I am short on time, so perhaps I'm mistaken.... Did you say that Josephus wrote that Herod ordered a census or tax in December of 5 BC? If so, may I have a reference to that..... I can't seem to find that.

Just to be sure we’re on the same page here, what I said was …

The decree was issued for the census in 8 B.C. and we know from historical records that it was implemented province by province. Provincial Italy was taxed in 8/7 B.C. and Rome itself in 7/6 B.C. Josephus mentions the oath of fidelity the Jews were required to take to both Caesar Augustus and King Herod, which would have been in the winter of 6 B.C., but 6000 Pharisees refused and it led to events that threw the court into turmoil and directly led to Herod executing his heir and son Antipater just before his own death.

So no, I didn’t say that Josephus wrote that Herod ordered a census in 5 B.C. I said Josephus records that the Pharisees rebelled against the oath of fidelity (swearing allegiance to Augustus and Herod) that the people were required to take, and it is mentioned in Antiquities Book 17, Chapter 2, Section 4, Passage 42 and would have been in late 6 B.C. We can only wish Josephus had given us more information about it, but he only mentions it in the context of the troubled last year of Herod’s life and what brought on his family calamities.

Also.... You mentioned that it is traditional (again, I don't have time to find the exact quote) that some folks believe that March 25th is the conception date of Mary. How is it that they came up with that?

Like the date for Christ’s birth, it dates back to very soon after the Apostles. Irenaeus of Lyon (130 – 202 A.D.) first wrote of it, but other early Christian writers also spoke of it, including St. Ephraim the Syrian who said that in the year of the Lord’s birth, March 25 coincided with Nisan 10, the day in which the Law of Moses commanded that the Passover Lamb be set aside to be offered at the Passover.

In the first centuries of the faith there was some disagreement on the significance of the incarnation, but there was no controversy on the date. All the major Christian churches agree on that date and observe an annual feast, and they all agree that the annunciation took place in Nazareth, but there is disagreement about the precise location. I tend to agree with the Catholic tradition which has memorialized the grotto believed to be the childhood home of Mary as the place where Gabriel visited her, because the Scripture says that the angel “eiserchomai pros” (came or entered in unto her) which to me says she was inside a building. The Greek Orthodox holds that Gabriel visited Mary at the village well while she was drawing water. But the central issue is that these traditional dates go back to the very earliest years of the faith and support the March 25 and December 25 dates as those on which Jesus was conceived and born.

And added weight is given to these traditional dates when you take into account that both Josephus as well as the Talmudic writings date for us the ordering of the priestly courses which would also fix a December birth.

And since I have been very forthcoming with references, how about you give me a reference or two to support your views against Christmas, and by references I don’t mean hearsay nor do I mean the unsubstantiated opinion of some encyclopedia or magazine authors written in the past few years who also make all kinds of statements but don’t offer any actual evidence to support them. Since you have been so unreceptive to the evidence I have posted, you must have some evidence that is very compelling ... care to share?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

... why would anyone insinuate someone doesn't celebrate Christmas because they are scared?
[/quote name="FHII" post="213991" timestamp="1386510587"

Would you be excommunicated from your organization if you celebrated Christmas?

 

[aspen]

Christmas is only a tiny part of the fear within Christian culture. I am speaking broadly FHII - not specifically about you and you decision to not celebrate Christmas. If I decided not to celebrate a holiday, however, I would simply skip it without constructing a theological argument against it - I am free to celebrate it or skip it. Jesus loves me regardless.

 

[Rach1370]

I see nothing in the New Testament that forbids me from celebrating the birth of the Messiah on December 25th.

Exactly. All those people out there who jump up and down about celebrating Christmas (regardless of the day)....I would be more worried, if I were them, about not acknowledging that great and momentous occasion when God became a man to save us. Surely that, above everything else, is worth celebrating??

I agree - fear has no place within Christianity, but unfortunately it is often taught from the pulpit and witnessed by many people who are followers of Christ, but fear everything about life so they cling desperately to what they believe are the fundamentals of the faith, while condemning everything that falls outside their narrow pov.

Its true. It seems that it is too easy for people to fall back into 'religion'. It becomes about them...their efforts, not Gods. I can understand it...too often I find myself carefully weighing what I should do, what I have or haven't done. And the bible certainly talks about what we should or should not do.....'do' being the word...clearly some action on our behalf is involved. I think the big thing that needs to be emphasized but often is not, is that all the passages in the NT that address the 'dos'....are directed at people who are already saved. It's not a list of what we must do to achieve salvation...it's more a sounding board for our new hearts and new desires. These are the things we get to do, because we are new creations...not stuff we must do in order to become new....if you see what I mean. It's a huge difference, and I think grasping that is where we become truly free! How I wish that religious people could get a handle on it!!

 

[FHII]

[SIZE=medium]Pilgrimmer,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]You have misunderstood why I meant with the I have pics of snow in Jerusalem. I was simply showing that they exist to show you can’t simply post a picture as a norm. Now, I’ve looked at your pictures and videos, and I saw bright, sunny days in the pictures, and the video…. Well…. I saw folks bundled up wearing ski caps and if you want to call what they are wearing “light jackets”, fine. They looked pretty bundled up to me.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Snow in Jerusalem is not the norm. Bright sunny skies is normal, but that doesn’t mean every day is like that. I have probably accessed the same website you have to get weather information on Jerusalem and from that it rains about 1 third of the time during that time of year. So posting a picture of folks on December 25th[/SIZE] of folks outside during a bright sunny day is not a realistic representation of how things are all the time. On average, 1 out of every 3 days it’s raining. Once out of every 7 years Jerusalem has a major snow storm…. A MAJOR one….

[SIZE=medium]You are posting and claiming photos of modern day Israel’s weather and noting the that folks can get around in that weather. Of course they can. Paved roads, automobiles, heated venues…. And how long were they outside? 2 hours? 5 hours? That is a lot different from a shepherd who would be outside for 3 or 4 months, isn’t it? In 2013 things are vastly different that in 1 AD, or 8 BC, aren’t they? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point was that simply because you produce photos of people outside in December in the year 2013 does not mean it was the same in the days of Jesus. Nor does it show that it is the norm that the weather is always sunny and 57 degree during the day and 41 degree during the night.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]That’s another thing…. You are going on “averages”. That doesn’t mean it never drops below 41 degrees. By the way, I checked the weather report for last night in Jerusalem… 31 degrees and raining. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Here’s my point: You displaying ANY photos of present day Israel and trying to show that shepherds would have been in the field and it would have been suitable for travel for a tax census is ridiculous. You can’t transfer a picture of modern day times to Biblical times. If Mary and Joseph had a car and paved roads, of course they could’ve made the trip! But on a donkey when the roads are not what they are now? I December? With Mary pregnant?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Simple fact: the weather is too harsh for mass travel, travel for a woman 9 months pregnant and for shepherding in the open field. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now, Pilgrimmer. You keep talking about how honest you are and I believe you. What about me? Do you believe I’m an honest person too? Well, I have a friend and he happens to be my Pastor. He actually went to Israel and asked shepherds if they take sheep out in the winter. I know it’s very uncommon for folks to believe what any Pastor says, but if you want me to believe you are an honest man, then you must believe I am too. And I believe the testimony of my Pastor who has actually been to Israel and inquired about the subject. If you are not buying it fine…. Here’s some info from noted Biblical scholars you might find interesting:[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Barnes[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]It is also a fact that the Jews sent out their flocks into the mountainous and desert regions during the summer months, and took them up in the latter part of October or the first of November, when the cold weather commenced. While away in these deserts and mountainous regions, it was proper that there should be someone to attend them to keep them from straying, and from the ravages of wolves and other wild beasts. It is probable from this that our Saviour was born before the 25th of December, or before what we call “Christmas.” At that time it is cold, and especially in the high and mountainous regions about Bethlehem.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11pt]Clarke[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]It was a custom among the Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts, about the passover, and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain: during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As the passover occurred in the spring, and the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November, we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole of the summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could he have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Gill[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]it is not likely that he was born, as is commonly received, at the latter end of December, in the depth of winter; since at this time, shepherds were out in the fields, where they lodged all night, watching their flocks: they were diligent men, that looked well to their flocks, and watched them by night, as well as by day, to preserve them from beasts of prey; they were, as it is in the Greek text, "keeping the watches of the night over their flock."[/SIZE]



[SIZE=11pt]See…. It’s not heresay. It’s a matter of a man going to the land itself and confirming what some of the most acclaimed theologians have said. You are an honest man…. Ok, I get that…. I believe that. Are you affording the same trust in me?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]So let’s talk about this “snow in Jerusalem”. Rare… Yes of course…. Or is it? “Major snow storms” are rare.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This website says major snow storm every 7 years[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]http://www.bibleplaces.com/jerusalemsnow.htm[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This website says it snows every few years, especially in mountainous regions like Jerusalem[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]wiki.answers.com › ... › Meteorology and Weather[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] › [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Snow and Ice[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This website says it’s normal to get snow in Galilee and near Jerusalem.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]http://seeingisrael.com/2012/02/29/waiting-for-snow-in-jerusalem/[/SIZE]


[SIZE=11pt]And I didn’t know this before, but there is actually a ski resort 150 miles north of Jerusalem! Do you have ski resorts in Mobile, AL? Yea sure… 400 miles to the north! I have been to Mobile. Spent some of my childhood in New Orleans and have family in Pascagula, MS…. Lived in Florida and even in Tennesse near that ski resort in Alabama. Trust me… The weather there ain’t nothing like that in Israel![/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I asked you about why the locals believed that March 25th was the conception date of Jesus. How did they come up with it? You provided me with no concrete answer. I DO actually have an answer to that… [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Jewish customs and beliefs… In other words, fables. Have a look at this link:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]There is simply no historical evidence or meteorological evidence as to why your sources came up with the date of March 25 being Jesus’ conception date. It’s based on fables. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]From what website, I have seen a quote from Clement of Alexandria:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now, I recognize you have sources that say the date of Jesus’ birth should be celebrated on December 25th[/SIZE], but appearently not everyone agreed with that. I don’t claim to know the date or season of Jesus’ birth, but these sources agree with my belief that the “lamb of God” was born in the spring. Furthermore, Clement wasn’t claiming a date, he was quoting many sources.

[SIZE=medium]Next, let me go to the Bible. Jesus said in Mat 24:20: “Pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Jesus is describing events that would cause people to run for their lives. They wouldn’t be able to do it during the Sabbath, nor in winter months. Let me ask you, if you would have a hard time fleeing during the winter, wouldn’t it also not be suitable weather for shepherding or going to pay your taxes? In fact, a matter of life or death is going to be hard enough by this statement, much less tending sheep or traveling to pay taxes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now, let me finally address Jacob an Laban. Yes, Jacob did get frost bitten while tending sheep. But have you considered the whole incident?[/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=medium]It was 1500 years before Jesus’ birth. Different era. [/SIZE]
2. [SIZE=medium]The Bible never says Jacob was in the field when he got frost bitten.[/SIZE]
3. [SIZE=medium]It was in a different region…. Southern Turkey where the weather is not the same. Longer winters, less rainfall or snow fall. [/SIZE]
4. [SIZE=medium]We have no evidence that there were towns around. Harran is noted, but was it a town big enough to hold sheep? How close was it to Jacob?[/SIZE]
5. [SIZE=medium]Jacob was in hiding from Esau…. He didn’t want to be found.[/SIZE]
6. [SIZE=medium]Jacob was complaining about the conditions. [/SIZE]
7. [SIZE=medium]It is just one incident. You can’t base what shepherd do in 5 BC in Jerusalem based on what Jacob did 1500 years earlier in another region of the world. You produce 2 or 3 incidences, then you have a reason to be believed. David ate the manna from the temple…. Doesn’t mean that everyone did! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So yes…. You have this one incident. You’ve got three obscure testimonies (they are obscure not because I say they are, but because every major encyclopedia I’ve read fails to mention them) without base that say Jesus was born December 25th[/SIZE]. You’ve got modern day photos of people in Jerusalem wearing either light or heavy coats who arrived there in automobiles and weren’t out in the weather for months on end. You’ve also got a lone incident of a shepherd (Jacob) who was quite pissed with his working conditions “possibly” being in the field in December. And you have weather.com along with your own belief that it’s ok weather.

[SIZE=medium]I have noted biblical historians that say it is not likely that Jesus was born in December as well as Jesus himself saying travel I difficult in winter thus it’s not a good idea to be paying taxes or travelling (especially with a pregnant woman) or shepherding. I’ve got witnesses who has been to Israel and talked to shepherds. I’ve even got a ski resort in Israel! Not that I am relying on that because I know snow is rare in Israel…. But unpassable weather conditions in 1 AD in Israel aren’t.[/SIZE]

 

[Rach1370]

Aspen, Dodo, Rach,

What makes you think it's fear? Why couldn't it be a desire to get it right? What about John 4:24 which says, "God is a spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."? God talks a lot about Truth, even to the point where Jesus said he was Truth.

Ok....a desire to 'get it right' is not a bad thing.....but how do you do that? How do you figure...with a 100% accuracy...that any particular date is the day that Jesus was born? I'm sure down through the years many people have tried to determine when Christ was born....but as it was so long ago, I don't think it's something we can know...
My question is....is it better to not celebrate the occasion of his birth? It's not as if we are worshipping a date. If we marked the 25th of December as a holy day....well, clearly that would be wrong....a little stupid too!! But we are merely using that day to gather together, with family and friends, to remember and celebrate the occasion when God became a man to save us from our sins. That, my friend...is truth! I may spend the rest of the year marvelling at all the works of Christ...how can I not! His miracles were amazing, his love all encompassing, his death and resurrection miraculous! In the midst of all those things, sometimes the birth gets overlooked. It shouldn't, and I think 'Christmas' makes us stop and consider it. God chose to come as a baby. He could have come as a man...but no....there is nothing more simple or humbling then a baby, forced to rely on his parents for everything. It was the exact opposite to what Christ had in heaven...able to spin out universes with a single breath!
My point is....don't celebrate 'Christmas' on the 25 if you don't want.....but it is an occasion you should celebrate. And given the freedom we are given in Christ, I don't know that you are given biblical grounds to call us out on when we choose to celebrate it. You can have no intimate knowledge of what I do on Christmas day...how I spend it, what I think, what I teach my kids. So making a judgment call is perhaps not appropriate.

Rach, you said, "Isn't Christianity supposed to free people?" Well, that's a debatable question! First, I've been freed from Christmas! Praise God! Second, the answer is "NO". We are free from the Law (yet we see a lot of people on this board who want to continue that bondage), but we are the Lord's free men (1 Cor 7:22). We are bought with a price and we are not our own.

Even if it was fear, so what? Psa 1:7, Pro 9:10 and 15:33 all talk about fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom. I know some might say, "well, fear in that sense means respect!" OK. Is it respectful to believe something that isn't true when God told you not to? Others might bring up 1 John 4:18, but that says there's no fear in love. Fine, but there is also no love without truth (that is, we are supposed to worship Him in truth and love).

So, I don't know if it is your intentions, but I don't intend to be labeled as "fearful" because I don't celebrate Christmas. I can turn it around on you.... Are you scared not to celebrate Christmas? What would all your coworkers and family think? I may look mean by asking that, but why would anyone insinuate someone doesn't celebrate Christmas because they are scared?

I didn't label you fearful...my only point was that in Christ we need not fear. And I'm not talking of 'fear of the Lord', which is appropriate. My point was that we are freed from the condemnation and speculations....judgements....of man. We are held to scripture and the Holy Spirit. If you feel the Spirit is guiding you away from celebrating Christmas, then by all means, follow him!!
But I would ask for a similar courtesy.....that you allow that biblically, there is no instruction against celebrating Christ's birth...nor is there a list of what we must aviod in such celebrating. And that biblically, and Spiritually, it is quite possible that we are being led to a freedom to celebrate when and where we choose.

 

[FHII]

Rachel, if you feel that celebrating Jesus' birthday on December 25th is ok when you know it really isn't his birthday is not breaking John 4:24.... Well, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen on this board people justify worship which is clearly against John 4:24.

Do people not it as a Holy day? Yes! And as YOU said, it's clearly wrong and a little stupid! Your words, not mine! Now, you gathering with your friends on any day is not wrong, but using that day as THE occasion to do it.... Why? I can only think of one reason: it's the social norm! It doesn't matter if it's the truth or not.... It matters what the social norm says it is. Yea... like you said: wrong and stupid!

"don't celebrate 'Christmas' on the 25 if you don't want.....but it is an occasion you should celebrate." Wow! Ok! sounds something like the Vice President would say!

Now, I got to hand it to Pilgrimmer.... He at least believes it is the right day and he's fighting hard for it! I respect that even if I believe he is wrong. I respect that more than people who have the attitude that it doesn't matter what day we celebrate it just as long as we do.... The Bible never says to but it does say worship in spirit and in truth!

As for you labeling me fearful or not labeling me fearful.... It was a general response to you and two other people.... But then again, you seemed pretty agreeable to what Aspen was getting at, didn't you?

 

[Dodo_David]

Rachel, if you feel that celebrating Jesus' birthday on December 25th is ok when you know it really isn't his birthday is not breaking John 4:24.... Well, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen on this board people justify worship which is clearly against John 4:24.

Do people not it as a Holy day? Yes! And as YOU said, it's clearly wrong and a little stupid! Your words, not mine! Now, you gathering with your friends on any day is not wrong, but using that day as THE occasion to do it.... Why? I can only think of one reason: it's the social norm! It doesn't matter if it's the truth or not.... It matters what the social norm says it is. Yea... like you said: wrong and stupid!

"don't celebrate 'Christmas' on the 25 if you don't want.....but it is an occasion you should celebrate." Wow! Ok! sounds something like the Vice President would say!

Now, I got to hand it to Pilgrimmer.... He at least believes it is the right day and he's fighting hard for it! I respect that even if I believe he is wrong. I respect that more than people who have the attitude that it doesn't matter what day we celebrate it just as long as we do.... The Bible never says to but it does say worship in spirit and in truth!

As for you labeling me fearful or not labeling me fearful.... It was a general response to you and two other people.... But then again, you seemed pretty agreeable to what Aspen was getting at, didn't you?

FHII,

I, for one did not say anything about you or anyone else being fearful. You have me confused with someone else.

Also, I consider it jumping the shark to say that celebrating the Nativity on Dec. 25th is a violation of John 4:24.

Biblical Archaeology Review has an excellent online article about the origin of the Nativity celebration on Dec. 25th.

The title of the article is "How December 25 Became Christmas".

Here is an excerpt from that article:

Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus died was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar. March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception. Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.

 

[Rach1370]

Rachel, if you feel that celebrating Jesus' birthday on December 25th is ok when you know it really isn't his birthday is not breaking John 4:24.... Well, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen on this board people justify worship which is clearly against John 4:24.

Ok....lets tease this out a little. John 4:24 means that we must worship in Spirit and 'Truth'. And you take this 'truth' to mean that every aspect of our worship must be in strict, rigid, truth...it MUST be true...factual and physically correct, or we are as good as pagan. But...one then wonders about how you worship at all. Do you sing songs of praise? What if these songs aren't the same ones that were sung by the apostles? What if they are not the ones that David wrote? Does that mean they are not 'true'? What about communion? Do you partake of it? Do you take wine and bread? But what if the wine you take and the bread you eat are not the same in recipe as the ones Christ had in his hand at the passover supper? Does that then mean you are not worshipping in 'truth'?
You may think I'm being silly, but I am not. You seem to be implying that it is far better for Christians to ignore the event of Christ's birth....what a tragedy.
To me a much more faithful interpretation of John 4...is that we worship "In spirit and truth". They go together...they are not separate. The truth is that Jesus came as a baby...he put heaven aside and came to earth to save us. That is the most important truth in all the universe....and I can't be there. I will never have been one of the shepherds that witnessed the angels singing in the night sky. I will never have been there to sink to my knees in front of that feed trough and gaze in wonder at the tiny, helpless baby that would capture and free my soul. But as I do belong to Christ... I can worship that truth in my heart. This is my God...My Saviour....and I celebrate his birthday.

Do people not it as a Holy day? Yes! And as YOU said, it's clearly wrong and a little stupid! Your words, not mine! Now, you gathering with your friends on any day is not wrong, but using that day as THE occasion to do it.... Why? I can only think of one reason: it's the social norm! It doesn't matter if it's the truth or not.... It matters what the social norm says it is. Yea... like you said: wrong and stupid!

Now see....I must at this point wonder what you think a "birthday" is. Do we throw a birthday party in order to worship a person? Do I proclaim the day my child is born to be a holy day? Pfffst. No.
A birthday is just this:....."I love you. You are important to me. I am glad, every single year, that you are in my life.".....And you know what....if my child's birthday happens to be in the middle of the week, I happily shift the party to the weekend....so that people can come and celebrate this sentiment with me.

Now, I ask you. Why would Jesus have a problem with me taking a day each year to say: "I love you. You are important to me. I am glad, every single year, that you are in my life".??

So, no....the 25th of Dec is NOT a holy day. It's a birthday....and it's a day I know I can celebrate Jesus' birthday with my husband, my children, my parents, my sibblings....why? Because the world very helpfully shuts down, that's why. There is no work, no school, no other responsibilities. The only thing we need to worry about...is telling Jesus those things. We're having a birthday party...the most important birthday that there ever was.

Now...you can think those things above if you like, but you most certainly don't speak for me....or anyone I know, for that matter. Although, clearly you do see the 25th as a holy day...so perhaps I do understand why you don't use that day.

"don't celebrate 'Christmas' on the 25 if you don't want.....but it is an occasion you should celebrate." Wow! Ok! sounds something like the Vice President would say!

Sorry, clearly that was supposed to be a zinga....but as I'm not America, it's fallen flat. But don't worry, I'm sure the other Americans here appreciated your wit and bitey sarcasm!
And it also managed to dodge the issue. Which is....do you ever take a day to acknowledge the birth of your saviour? Or is the birthday of your mother/wife/daughter...more important? And if you tell me that you've never had a birthday for someone in your family...well, I'm sorry, I won't believe you.

Now, I got to hand it to Pilgrimmer.... He at least believes it is the right day and he's fighting hard for it! I respect that even if I believe he is wrong. I respect that more than people who have the attitude that it doesn't matter what day we celebrate it just as long as we do.... The Bible never says to but it does say worship in spirit and in truth!

Mmmm. I respect people who aviod alcohol because they know it wouldn't be wise for them, personally to drink. But not so much the people who declare alcohol to be evil and think they have the right to judge everyone who chooses to exercise the freedom Christ paid for....

As for you labeling me fearful or not labeling me fearful.... It was a general response to you and two other people.... But then again, you seemed pretty agreeable to what Aspen was getting at, didn't you?

Ah, I see. Your general response to my general response was something I was supposed to have ignored, even though you didn't think I was musing in general, but making a pointy point.
Glad we got that sorted....ta.