Deborah_
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for this theory, it's generally reckoned that Herod the Great died in 4BC. So Jesus must have been born in the year 5 or 6.
Christ's Birth - Sept. 11, 3 BC
- Thread starter Ronald David Bruno
- Start date
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Unfortunately for this theory, it's generally reckoned that Herod the Great died in 4BC. So Jesus must have been born in the year 5 or 6.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Jews celebrated their birthdays.
The wise men would have also known from the writings of Daniel about teh coming Messiah.
Teh wise men came to worship Jesus as King! They also warned the family to flee because they knew of Herods plot.
It was Gods shecinah glory that led the wise men.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Apostate Jews later adopted all manner of false beliefs....it was something for which God often punished them. They were even lured into child sacrifice at one time...seriously they were not a good example of God fearing people. They gave us more examples of what not to do in worship than they ever did in all their history. It’s still going.
What gives you that impression? Nebuchadnezzar was forced to acknowledge the existence of the Hebrew God by the fulfilment of prophesy, that affected him directly....but by the time of Israel’s deliverance, the Babylonians were not respectful of the Hebrew God at all. Just before the conquest of the Medes and Persians, the King was having a banquet, drinking wine from the sacred vessels of God’s temple, stolen from the Temple when Babylon conquered Jerusalem. Who do you suppose they credited for that victory? Certainly not the God of the Jews.....but God had used them to punish his people and sending them into exile.
Babylon would have been praising their own gods. They took the cream of Israel’s young men with the intention of making them good Babylonians who would abandon their God and worship Babylon’s gods.
The so called “wise men” of Babylon were the ones who tried to get Daniel killed in the lion’s den....so there is no indication that the Babylonians gave much heed at all to Israel’s God or his prophet Daniel, once Nebuchadnezzar was gone.....you see, a small understanding of history will put that idea to bed. Inventing scenarios to prop up your personal beliefs isn’t what Christianity is all about. Thankfully, we have the Bible to guide our thinking.
Sorry but the Bible does not back you up there either.....the magi came to honour a new King as was their custom. Nowhere does it indicate that they thought Jesus was a god to be worshipped. Doing “obeisance” to royalty was also a custom, and in some countries it still is to this day. It’s the same word in Greek and it simply conveys a bowing down. In Hebrew the word means the same. God’s servants “prostrated themselves” before angels. This is not worship, but a sign of respect.
Sorry, that doesn’t wash either. The Shechinah Light was only ever seen in the most holy compartment of the Temple, above the Ark of the Covenant, and only to Moses. It represented God’s presence. So do you honestly think that God was going to be “present” with pagan astrologers whose practices he condemned outright in his Law to Israel? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) God announced Jesus’ birth to Jewish shepherds, and it was they who went to the stable...not the magi who came much later when Jesus was “a young child” and living in a “house”.
That star was part of a satanic plot to get Jesus killed...and the saddest thing of all is that he has the whole of Christendom giving honour to the unwitting dupes used by the devil for that purpose.....it is a shame on all of them.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
YOu are taking a few examples and forcing the entire population to be that way! Proof?
Remember Esther married Xerxes and He brough a revival to the Jews. That was th eGrecian Part of th etime of th egentiles and th epersian empire was in it. And these three wise men Knew that the 9not A but THE) King of teh Jews had been born. God condemned His people from pracxtising astrology so I don't think He would have set such an important event in astrological charts.
Potato-- potatoe matter of the heart. And I do not think that these guys would have traveled 2 years to worship a Jewish king who would be under Roman subjection. Rome would not have allowed a king. whether it was just simple reverence (which I doubt) or afctual worship- you and I will not know for we do not know their hearts. I wil accept what the super majority of expert translators wrote, unless you can give better evidence.
Matt. 1:
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Imagine that these pagans heard from God and obeyed! Daniels writings were in teh archives of at least Babylon, Sippora and several other cities in the east!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What??? The Bible itself tells the story...what further “proof” do you need?
Did you make that up? Where on earth would you get such a story....? It’s complete fiction.
Esther was by divine providence placed in the King’s palace as Queen instead of the former Queen Vashti. She gained the King’s favour by being everything the vain Vashti wasn’t. But her cousin Mordecai, was instructing her all the while and by his guidance and also by her courage in approaching the King unannounced, she was able to foil the plot of an evil Prime Minister in committing genocide of all the Jews in the whole Persian Empire.
God kept his promise to Abraham (an unbreakable Covenant) that from his lineage, the Messiah would come. But the Jews as a people proved to be stubborn and rebellious, challenging God at times to want to exterminate them himself! (Exodus 32:9-19; Ezekiel 20:13) But he kept forgiving them and so kept his end of the agreement that he made with them until it was fulfilled. His Messiah came into the world and when he took up his assignment at the age of 30, Jesus was baptised and became “the Christ”. (anointed one)
Thereafter, Jesus was to go to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” and bring responsive ones into a new pen, ready to execute the “New Covenant”, promised through Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-33) His ministry was to save the worthy ones out of Israel. He sent his disciples out with those instructions. (Matthew 10:11-14)
Jesus himself sentenced the stubborn nation of his people to a fate that they had brought on themselves....desolation and abandonment.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.
For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (NLT)
The only way for fleshly Jews to be saved was to ‘bless the one who came in the name of Jehovah’. (Quoting Psalm 118:26) To this day, the Jewish nation have never acknowledged Jesus as the Christ....though individuals from that nation have continued to come into the fold.
It was the Gentile nations who would make up the shortfall and provide a “people for his [Jehovah’s] name”. (Acts 15:14)
Who said it took them 2 years? And where did the “three wise men” come from, as is popularly believed? This whole story is a farce...a fabrication...a lie. To honour these pagans more than the shepherds to whom God revealed the birth of his Messiah is to pay honour to the devil who duped them into to his murderous plot.
Where is it said that they worshipped the child as a god? These were polytheistic Babylonian astrologers, not people who were coming to worship a god, but to honour a child of royalty. Did it put them off that this royal child was not living in luxury in a palace? He had none of the trappings of a king or even a prince. What led them to him was not from God.
While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where “pro·sky·neʹo” describes a person’s actions toward Jesus, the evidence points to an act of reverence and respect, rather than worshipping him as God. The circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)
Yes, these superstitious practicers of magic responded to a warning from the true God not to return to Herod and they obeyed. There was nothing evil in their intent, but the devil used them as dupes in his plot to kill Jesus. Mary and Joseph accepted their generous gifts and as they were poor, these funds would have helped them immensely.
There is not a single thing in the scriptures to indicate that the magi knew anything about Daniel or his writings or that they thought of this infant as anything but royalty. The source of their information was not God. The star was anything but divinely provided. I know you will find that hard to accept, but the evidence is right there in the scriptures if you read with open eyes and an open heart.
Just to add....is there a problem with your device? Your posts are hard to read because of all the typing errors....
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well if you read Acxts- you would see the myriads of jews who did not asribe to the hate of Jesus as the rulers did.
No that is History.
The New covenant does not include gentiles.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
god will save all of Israel in the last days before His physical return!
Why are you retranslating the Scriptures? Yes jews need to trust in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus to be saved. But for Israel to SEE (visibly) they have to say "blessed is He ....." See and saved are two separate words with two different meanings.
and there is nothing to say they hadn't read Daniel. If they were wise men, they would have access to all the archives! Daniewl would have been in teh archives.
There are numerous believers who have written all sorts of whacky stuff to explain the star and show its meaning, but stars do not appear and disappear. Stars do not move north-south and stars do not point out an individual house! So astrology is not a factor.
Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem.
Now you would have to do some research a to learn that teh Maji as they are called came from Persia which is Iran. Given traditions they would have come from Eastern Persia so the trip would have been over 1150 miles following the traditional caravan routes. As Caravans were slow moving things the wise men, if they followed the traditional distances caravans covered in a day they would have travelled approx. 20miles/day. but as these were wise men and not merchants odds are they would have travelled at a slwoer pace as they would not have been used ot the rigors of crossing desertrs and mountains etc.etc. on the carvan routes. So it would have taken a minimum of 575 days.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus was sent to the “lost sheep”, but not to those who blindly followed the teachings of those whom Jesus condemned to “gehenna”.
Matthew 23:14-15....
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.”
Are Christendom’s leaders doing the very same thing today?
In Matthew 27:25 we see who it was who cursed themselves with Christ’s blood.
Reference please....
If the Jews as a nation were cast off because they could not keep their covenant with God, then who else was going to make up the numbers? (Acts 15:14; Luke 14:16-24) The people whom God chose to replace the wayward and rebellious Jews had to be Gentiles......the spiritual “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) were made up of Christ’s disciples, both Jews and Gentiles. The two became one people under Christ.
Acts 10:44-48...with the conversion of the first Gentile, Cornelius along with his household...
“Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. For they heard them speaking in other tongues and praising God. Then Peter asked, “Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.” (NLT)
How can you not know what the scriptures teach?
Seriously...am I “retranslating the scripture” or simply rendering it the way it was written?
Is your own understanding of the scriptures preventing you from seeing what is plainly stated?
Fleshly Israel are no longer God’s people. But individual members of that nation can “see” Jesus as the Christ and bless him as God’s Messiah. There is more than one way to “see”.
Good grief....there is nothing to suggest they did either. The scriptures do not accord the magi with any indication from God that Jesus had been born. They said that they saw “his star”....so what made them think that?
Yes....so the “star” was not a natural phenomena. It was not from God, so it was clearly NOT the Shekinah light as you have suggested. It was supernaturally produced....but from a different “god”. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) One intent on destroying the Savior before he even had a chance to grow up.
What has this got to do with anything? The magi arrived at the “house” where Jesus was living guided by the star which had indicated that very house.....and delivered their gifts, which were gratefully accepted. If God had sent the star, would it not have guided them there in the first place? Where are your deductive skills? Obviously focused on your preferred version of events....?...none of which hold up under scrutiny.
As for the magi, there was nothing sinister about their motives, and by ascertaining from them when they first saw the “star”, Herod had all the infants in Bethlehem, 2 years of age and under put to death. That’s really all we need to know. The Bible tells the story so we don’t need to let our imagination run riot. Musing about how long it took them to reach Jerusalem achieves what?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Of course we are living in the age of Laodecia or the apostasy.
Yes but Jesus still died for their sins. He died for every single persons sins
Book of Esther. Also the feast of Purim is based on ths Jews ssurviving thanks to Ahaseurarus or Xerxes
The Jews as a nation have not been cast off. they as a nation have been set aside for now for the taking out of the gentiles a people fo rHis name along with the remnant of Israel aka the Church age.
The Gentiles are not Spiritual Israel. Jews who are saved are spiritual Israel. REread Galatians more carefully.
Incorrect!
Matthew 23:37-39
King James Version
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
This is not a conditional statement Jesus made.
Given Daniel had lived there for 70 years and his writings were in teh archives and given history has shown the maji pored over the parts of the archives where Daniel was stored- odds are they read Daniel. The bible doesn't say you can fly in planes. so do you not fly because it doesn't say one way or trhe other? As for the star it is in Daniel.
I believe teh Shekinah loight. Satan would not have contrived this plan. He would have meddled in the plan of god if He had permission, but you need to show this was a Satanic plot.
And setting the date for his birth achieves what? Remember Jesus was born in a cave in a feed trough. The maji went to a house where the young child jesus was living with Joselh and Mary and maybe a half brother by then. All the things I cited all flow from how old the babies should be to be killed.
1. Jesus was born.
2. Supernatural phenomena asppears.
3. Maji assemble themselves in a caravan
4. they travel to Jerusalem.
5. they present themselves to Herod as would be proper.
6. I am sure they did not know th epolitics of Jerusalem at the time.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jesus did die for everyone, but the application of his sacrifice is conditional......you have to exercise faith in his blood to have it cover you.
Sinners who have not repented and come into a relationship with God through his Christ, based on clear Bible truth, will NOT be saved.
What has this got to do with the Magi? The Jews were God's people right up to the time when they murdered his son.....that and their previous history was enough to cast them off...and good riddance! Those who came out of that nation to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, were blessed because they blessed him. The natural Jews today are just one of the blood spilling nations. (Isaiah 1:15) God abandoned them. As a nation, they have allied themselves
Perhaps it is you who needs to examine the scriptures more closely....
What is a "Jew" according to the apostle Paul?
Romans 2:25-29....
"Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the physically uncircumcised person will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who are a transgressor of law despite having its written code and circumcision. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision something on the outside, on the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit and not by a written code. That person’s praise comes from God, not from people."
Were the Jews practicers of the Law, or disobedient for a good deal of their history? As serial covenant breakers, God had no obligation to them at all, but true to his promise to Abraham, he kept them in existence until he produced the seed who would save people of all the nations who put faith in him.
What did John the Baptist tell the Pharisees?
Matthew 3:7-10...
"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."
They never produced the fruit.....so "gehenna" is where Jesus said they were bound for....(Matthew 23:33-38)
The axe fell....and it will fall again on "Babylon the great"...(Revelation 18:4-5)
Read his last sentence again.....it became conditional with the word "TILL". Unless the Jews individually come to Christ as Messiah, they will no more be saved than any other false worshippers. Their God in whose name the Bible writers were proud to speak of, has no place in Israel because no one is allowed to utter his name......how ridiculous! This is in direct disobedience to Exodus 3:15, where Jehovah spoke his name.....
"Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah (Yahweh) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."
Why did the Jews forget the name of their God? Because superstition prevented them from saying it....not because God forbade them to utter it.
All through their history, they could never simply do as they were told. Christendom does exactly the same.
You are making up your own history to promote your erroneous view. "Odds are"??? ....seriously, is that history?
Where is the star in Daniel? Please show us...
I have already shown you that the Shekinah light was only seen by Moses and the High Priests in the Most Holy compartment of the tabernacle and the temple. It was seen above the Ark of the Covenant where Moses heard God's voice. No one else saw it but he High Priest once a year.....God's people never saw it, let alone pagan astrologers.
Jesus was not born anywhere near December 25th. The ancient Jews did not celebrate birthdays and that is why you will find no birthdates in scripture, though you will find the dates of special events on the Jewish calendar.
Birthdays were connected to astrology, which was forbidden in God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) God did not direct the magi....
If you have ever been a teacher......all I can say is heaven help your students.
I am familiar with the 4BC date that Josephus attached Herod's death to, a particular lunar eclipse in 4BC.
However there was a more likely eclipse on Dec. 29, 1BC. It was even more visible than the one in 4BC. Joseph although brilliant, might have been in error.
Herod’s Death, Jesus’ Birth and a Lunar Eclipse
In addition to that, Mary, Joseph and Jesus fled out of the region to get away from Herod, possibly for a few years until Herod was dead. Than they were told to return when it was safe.
These Magi came from the east hundreds of miles away. The star led them to a general area of Jersusalem/ Bethlehem. After a long travel typically one would go to the bigger to to get refreshed, cleaned up, take a bath and be presentable for the visit. They asked "where is He", still not sure. They must have been aware of the Hebrew prophecies that a King would come out of Bethlehem. If not, why would they go in the first place? But Jews could have certainly clarified any confusion but I do not think they were confused. You get to the big town, rest, eat, clean up and then ask "How do get to Bethlehem ... what road takes us there?" Bethlehem is ONLY 10 KILOMETERS AWAY. THAT IS A TWO HOUR WALK. And maybe it just slipped your mind that the star that was visible IS NOT DURING THE DAY WHEN THEY TRAVELED. So , they went to Jersalem for all those reasons nut more importantly, later, they would be warned of the danger of Herod seeking to kill the The Child.
We don't know the conversations between the Magi and Mary and Joseph, but you can be sure they mentioned that "Herod is also interested in seeing your baby and he wants us to go back and tell him." Now initially that might be flattering information, but God told all of them later in a dream of Herod's true intentions. So the Magi's visit to Jerusalem was also necessary for that reason -the mist important one.. If they had not known and taken Jesus to Jerusalem (and btw, that is where they were headed), they would not have escaped.
They read signs in the heavens as astronomers did. Don't assume practised astrology.
It has been said that the story of redemption is written in the stars. God named all the stars ...how many is that? 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
In Genesis, the stars were for signs and seasons. Seasons we get, but what are the signs. The ancients, not just Hebrews, but Arabs, Egyptians and Babylonians used constellations. They named them. The 12 twelve tribes of Israel correlate to the Zodiac (Mazzaroth). We are not talking about Astrology, a false practice, just constellations and their meanings. Now it appears that the stories are conceived by knowing the ancient Hebrew names of the most brightest stars in a constellation. There is a hidden message/ story and so when a rare configuration appeared in the heavens, it was a sign that something was going to take place.
For instance, Virgo's brightest star was Semek (Hebrew for branch) and Aspolia (Egyptian for seed). The next brightest atar had the meaning of (desire of nations) and yet another star meant (man of double nature in humiliation). So one message would be "the seed of the woman'.
Libra's story is scales weighing, a price to be paid, cross(crux), a victim slain, redemption.
Scorpio - conflict, struggle with the enemy, toiling vanquisher of evil.
Pisces - Bridegroom exhalted, upheld, governed by the Lamb
Aries -Lamb found worthy, Satan bound
Capricorn -life out of death
Leo > Lion > tribe of Judah
Sagittarius - dragon cast down
Taurus -invincible ruler comes, sublime vanquisher, river of judgment, all ruling shepherd and He builds fires of punishment.
Cancer - possessuin secured
Gemini - marriage of the Lamb, enemy trodden down, Prince coming in glory.
>>>So these have nothing to do with your personality, character, horoscope. Each ancient name of a star had a meaning and so you can see how the stories changed, evolved over time. But in there we see the story of Jesus, birth, death and resurrection and in the end, judgment.
Right, a message to the locals.
Oh no, YOU presented scripture that claims they did have reasin to worship JESUS.
>>>"Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”
Did you miss that word, "too"?
No, it did not stop over the house, they saw it from hundreds of miles away and navigated by its light at night to the area location. It was'nt there during the day and of course they traveled during the day. Kist as anyone whonwould navigate ny the stars, they would pick a hill or mountain that the star was over at night and travel towards that direction during the day. I doubt they traveled at night, it is pitch dark unless a full moon is out.
They traveled to Bethlehem from Jerusalem was daylight. If it was an angel of light that moved then settled above the house, scripture would have revealed this, since there was no comfusion on the Hebrew scriptures about angels being seen. Angels were present and also worshipping. Why didnt the scripture say, "other stars were there too worshipping? Because was'nt angel. There was no mistake about the Skekinah glory which was evidenced in a cloud, the burning bush or inside the Holy of Holies. There would be no reason to shroud the skekinah glory in a mysterious star, scripture would have just revealed it as it has before in the cloud, the burning bush or dwelling in the Holy of Holies.
Odd, the majority of followers of Jesus fee a sense of jou
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% Jesus paid for everyones sins, but the only ones who benefit from His prioce are those who place their trust in it.
they still are His people by an everlasting covenant God made with HImself! Paul reaffirms this over again in Romans. This setting aside that is still in force was prophesied long ago!
1. God never fobade Istraelis from saying the name Yahweh.
2. It wasn't superstition but an over adherence to not take the name of the Lord in vain. foolish, but that is why they would not even write the name of God in Scripture.
3. Sorry but until is not a conditional preposition or conjuction. It is a statement of fact. If Jesus used the word unless then it would be a conditional phrase.
esus was not born anywhere near December 25th. The ancient Jews did not celebrate birthdays and that is why you will find no birthdates in scripture, though you will find the dates of special events on the Jewish calendar.
Birthdays were connected to astrology, which was forbidden in God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) God did not direct the magi....
If you have ever been a teacher......all I can say is heaven help your students.
Well I agree that Jesus was not born around December 25th. I hold to a fall birth.
Jews di dnot celebrate all birthdays but they did celebrate quite a few. 2nd, 3rd, 5th 10th,15th, 18th, 20th, 30th 40th 50th 80th.
Maybe in some cultures birthdays are connected to astrology. but there is no law forbidding their celebration. I dare you to find one. Not some vague thing you try to connect to something else.
Well God does help my students of the past 35 years! Like He helps me! Nearly everyone of my students are still actively and pasionately following the Lord. That to me is a good track record that I have not led them astray. Maybe in some little things. Like this whole topic is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You do realize that this is your own idea of what “might have” happened. I don’t think that ancient middle eastern astrologers would necessarily follow the pattern of modern western hygiene habits....but that is irrelevant. Bethlehem also had places to stay the night.
Again they “must have”...really?
It is what resulted that tells the story. They were used by satan (the one responsible for all magical arts practiced in non-Jewish nations) in an attempt to get Jesus killed. If God had sent the magi, he would have led then straight to Jesus....instead satan led them to a wicked and jealous king who would at all costs, preserve his own dynasty.
Again this is based more on your imagination than on scripture.
We don’t really know what the star was, or when it was visible. If it was of supernatural origin, then it could have led them to wherever the originator wanted them to go. It led them to Herod....and only after he had been alerted did the star "go ahead of them and come to a stop" over the very house where Jesus was. This was no ordinary star.
God is not sloppy about such things....nor would he endanger the lives of innocent Jewish children by sending pagan astrologers to haphazardly locate his son. That would make him responsible for the deaths of all those infants. This incident has satan’s fingerprints all over it.
You are allowing your imagination to fill in the gaps again, but you really have no way of knowing that what you assume is even true.
Since God was always the protector of his son from the beginning, nothing was going to harm him until he had to present himself as a sacrifice for mankind. (Even the devil knew that, (Luke 4:9-13)...but he had to try it on)
Jesus was presented at the Temple for circumcision on the eighth day after his birth as it was prescribed in the Law. And again, after 40 days of purification after the birth of their son, Mary and Joseph presented their prescribed offering at the Temple, they presented the offering of the poor...two turtle doves.....if the magi had visited just after Jesus’ birth, then the gifts would have been sold and a more expensive sacrifice offered.
Imagination again.....? Babylon was know for its astrology. Saying that they saw “his star” indicates astrology, not astronomy.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Continued...
Where on earth do you get that from scripture?
One star that was not behaving like any other does not constitute a rare configuration.
The Genesis account is speaking about the sun and the moon for signs and seasons, necessary for growing their food crops. Your imagination really does run riot.....
The zodiac is purely astrological. Nothing to do with anything the Jews were taught or believed.
No one had greater motive for murdering this child than Herod the Great, who had already had some of his own relatives killed in protecting his family dynasty.
When guiding Israel through the wilderness God used fire and cloud. What limits these astrologers if this was God’s doing?
The scriptures say that the star moved because it “went ahead of them and came to a stop above where the young child was”.
This was no ordinary star. Nor does it say that anyone else saw it.
Do you not know why God permits wickedness?
A hidden message/story?
Where on earth do you get that from scripture?
One star that was not behaving like any other does not constitute a rare configuration.
The Genesis account is speaking about the sun and the moon for signs and seasons, necessary for growing their food crops. Your imagination really does run riot.....
The zodiac is purely astrological. Nothing to do with anything the Jews were taught or believed.
Oh dear.....
Really?
No, I missed nothing.....it’s the same word. Herod was not going to "worship" a baby! He was going to honor him as a new king.....just like the magi were. That is obeisance.
No one had greater motive for murdering this child than Herod the Great, who had already had some of his own relatives killed in protecting his family dynasty.
This is completely out of your imagination again....we have no idea what form this star took.
When guiding Israel through the wilderness God used fire and cloud. What limits these astrologers if this was God’s doing?
The scriptures say that the star moved because it “went ahead of them and came to a stop above where the young child was”.
This was no ordinary star. Nor does it say that anyone else saw it.
I’m not really sure what all of that even means....there was nothing divine about the magi’s visit....they had no ulterior motive or else God would have said so. They innocently participated in a murder plot. God controlled the outcome by protecting his son. He does not interfere in the actions of man unless his purpose is under threat.
Do you not know why God permits wickedness?
That just tells me how many the devil can fool if they become emotionally attached to something....he is the ultimate deceiver. He has people reverencing something that he created in order to murder God’s son. How sad....
Is that the New World Translation?
In Exodus 3:14, God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
That was an introduction to Who God was to be filled in at a later time when Jesus would come.
"I am the Bread of Life";
"I am the Good Shepherd";
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life";
"I am the Resurrection and the Life;
"I am the Doorway";
"I am the Vine";
"I am th Alpha and the Omega";
"I am He" (the Savior, the Messiah, the One who spoke to you, the One who desired together you as a hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing.)
There, you see, He filled in the blanks of Who the Great I Am is.
Moses going back with just a name neither proves anything nor guves any informatiom. "I am who I am" or "I am whom I shall be", speaks of an eternal being Who never changes, Who knows the future. None of us knows who or what we will be. Only God knows the future. And what is in a name. His attributes are more important then a name; also what He did and what He will do, His all encompassing purpose and plan. "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". That tells them Who He is and what He has done for them. Now "I am who I am" is a reference to His attributes that would later identify Who He is in Christ. CHRIST said, "Before Abraham was, I Am." The Jews knew exactly what that reference was.
Don't you remember the reasin why Mary and Joseph stayed in the manger? Every room was full.
Again, not astrologers, maybe not even astonomers.
First of all, are you a Jehovah Witness. If so, that would explain your and hostility towards the Nativity scene with the Magi. JW'S are notorious for demonizing every move or belief outside of their little narrow camp!
Babylon was almost directly EAST of Jerusalem, 541 miles. That is some trek, 3 or 4 weeks.Again they “must have”...really?Why “must they” have known about a child born to a small and rather obscure nation, now subjugated by the dominant world power?
Okay. Do you remember the stories of Daniel, who lived almost his entire life in Babylon? Do you remember what he did, his position just under Nebuchadnezzar? During that time, the ruler and all saw what Daniel did. They believed that Daniel's God was the true God. He made all those magicians sorcerers, and astologers look like fools and they all were sentenced to death. How do you think that effected their false beliefs? They changed and for generations, at least the stories were passed down
and from that time on, the God of the Jews was taken more seriously and the proven false beliefs and practices of the magicians, sorcerers and astologers became common knowledge. Sure after generations some people returned back to false beliefs, but those who were learned of their history, like the Wise men, knew of the story of the Israelites, their God and His proven power. They knew even of the prophecies written. They knew of the story of Nebuchadnezzar's mind being taken away because he was arrogant and prideful and not thankful to God, the true God. They knew the story about the mysterious hand writing on the wall. If anyone in the entire Gentile world was influenced by these stories, it would have been the Babylonians of Daniel's time and after. The book of Daniel was written about 164 BC. So Babylonians in the know, historians and such, would have access to the true historical stories, even if they had been altered.
Your hatred and anger towards the Nativity speaks volumes. It has blinded your judgment. Again, if you are a JW, that explains it and the false translation you presented.
Common sense fills in the blanks where details are absent. If you were on a long camping trip, hiking for weeks, sleeping outside, would'nt you want to freshen up before you met your Savior ... or even just a relative? Would you just visit them filthy dirty and stinking of camel dung? "Hi, here we are ... give me a big hug and a kiss would ya?" That is not too classy, especially if they were kings.
Most normal people would like to present themselves in the best possible way - especially when they are to meet the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Savior.
Your views have neen altered by Satan - if you are a JW. If not, you have issues of hatred that stem from somewhere.
God gives life and He takes it away.
Everyone dies. What makes you think thise killed nanies did not go directly to God parents mourned, but really Christ's life was ti ne protected and btw, all thay happened was under God's sovereignty - if you actually know what that means. He controls and allows evil for a purpose. Satan can do nothing without God's permission.
What, is that what you imagined would have happened?
Where did you get your translation of the Bible? Is that the NWT.
Are you gonna fess up? JW or not? If not, where on earth did you attend church?
Ignorance will get you nowhere.
Do a study on the Mazzeroth, the origins of the Zodiak. Ask a Rabbi about it, he will educate you. Oh, you hate them too.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Do you think that the Jews know how to interpret their own scripture?
Exodus 3:13-15 from the Jewish Tanakh reads....
"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר"
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864
Tell me whether God's name means "I AM" in Hebrew?
This is not a statement of God's existence, because the Jews already knew that their God existed.....this was, (as most names were in those days) something meaningful about his actions towards his people....it was a statement of his intentions to "BE" or to "BECOME" whatever he needed to be in order to accomplish his will and purpose.
The Jews were trying to pin an accusation of blasphemy on him to give them an excuse to kill him.
But if God's name doesn't mean "I AM", then it has no connection whatsoever to John 8:58. Jesus was asked a question about his age, not whether he was God.
If claiming to be "God's son" got their knickers in a twist, imagine the outcry if he had claimed to be God!
The NWT is not the only translation to put the correct interpretation to John 8:58...
“I have existed before Abraham was born.” Schonfield and An American Translation:
“I existed before Abraham was born.” Stage (German):
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.” Pfaefflin (German):
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!” George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”
Jesus' response, (I AM) as translated in many Bibles is not grammatically correct because if the past tense is spoken about then it should read..."Before Abraham was, I was"...not "I am". (present tense)
There is no direct statement by either God or Jesus in the scriptures, that Jesus is anything but "the Son of God". Not once is he ever called "God the Son".
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
How well indoctrinated you are. I was raised in mainstream Christendom.....I know full well what is taught and from my studies of the Bible I can see exactly where you are coming from.....I was there once......but I see that your own prejudice is getting in the way of truth....pure scriptural unadulterated truth, no imagination required. I really don't think anyone in Christendom would know the truth if it jumped up and bit them.....but such is life....you go your way and I will go mine...we will all have to face the same judge...won't we?
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus was born during the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Tabernacles.
Joseph was taking Mary to Jerusalem to pay taxes...
What if the taxes were the tithes people were to bring?
Deu 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
Feast of Tabernacles is in the fall. There was no room at the inn and Mary and Joseph stayed in a stall until Jesus was born.
The 15th day of the 7th month:
Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
But on the 1st day of this 7th month is the blowing of Trumpets:
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
So there were shepherds in the field keeping their flocks and they heard something..
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Maybe the sign was the angel and the heavenly hosts blowing their trumpets, moreso than finding the babe in the manger.
So maybe from the day the Angel blew the trumpet and the time that Jesus was found in the manger was 2 weeks.
And I'm not good with consteallations and stars, but maybe there was something during those two weeks that shone brighter than the rest.
I believe one of the constellations in November is Pieces. Pieces being the fish.. and the sign of .. Jonah?
Interesting..
And our calendar is different than the one they had. They have 30 day calendars and no leap years. And sometimes a 13th month is added.
So going by an actual date today I think may be tricky.
But if we go by the Feast Days that God put in place for for signs and seasons...
it may be more accurate.
These just my thoughts.
Hugs
Joseph was taking Mary to Jerusalem to pay taxes...
What if the taxes were the tithes people were to bring?
Deu 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
Feast of Tabernacles is in the fall. There was no room at the inn and Mary and Joseph stayed in a stall until Jesus was born.
The 15th day of the 7th month:
Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
But on the 1st day of this 7th month is the blowing of Trumpets:
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
So there were shepherds in the field keeping their flocks and they heard something..
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Maybe the sign was the angel and the heavenly hosts blowing their trumpets, moreso than finding the babe in the manger.
So maybe from the day the Angel blew the trumpet and the time that Jesus was found in the manger was 2 weeks.
And I'm not good with consteallations and stars, but maybe there was something during those two weeks that shone brighter than the rest.
I believe one of the constellations in November is Pieces. Pieces being the fish.. and the sign of .. Jonah?
Interesting..
And our calendar is different than the one they had. They have 30 day calendars and no leap years. And sometimes a 13th month is added.
So going by an actual date today I think may be tricky.
But if we go by the Feast Days that God put in place for for signs and seasons...
it may be more accurate.
These just my thoughts.
Hugs
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
FWIW......it is generally acknowledged by Bible scholars that December 25 is not the date of Christ’s birth. In fact, the Bible does not pinpoint the date of Jesus’ birth at all, but it does give us information to the effect that it was not in the winter season. Luke provides the following information:
Christ’s forerunner, John the Baptist, was of the priestly family of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. (Luke1:5, 13) Therefore he would have entered upon his assigned work at the age of thirty years. (Numbers 4:3)
John was six months older than Jesus. (Luke 1:24, 26, 35, 36) Since Jesus also began his ministry when he was “about thirty years old,” John would have been preaching for about six months before Jesus approached him for baptism. (Luke 3:23)
Now, John began his work “in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,” the Roman emperor. (Luke 3:1,2) Historical records show that Tiberius began to rule on August 17, 14 C.E. (according to the Gregorian calendar). By Roman reckoning Tiberius’ first year ran from the date he took power, August 17, 14 C.E., to August 17, 15 C.E. His fifteenth year would run from August 17, 28 C.E., to August 17, 29 C.E. Therefore, even if John began his work on August 17, 28 C.E., Jesus, coming to John about six months later, did not approach him until, at the very earliest, sometime in February of 29 C.E. Accordingly, Jesus’ birth thirty years earlier would fall in the year 2 B.C.E. not 4 or 6 B.C.E., as some calculate.
In the fourth century C.E., the Catholic Church instituted Christmas. The church wanted to strengthen its position by removing one of the main obstacles in its way—the popularity of the pagan Roman religions and their winter solstice festivals. Each year, from December 17 through January 1, “most Romans feasted, gamed, reveled, paraded, and joined in other festivities as they paid homage to their deities,” (Christmas in America, by Penne L. Restad) And on December 25, the Romans celebrated the birth of the Invincible Sun. Instituting Christmas on that day, the church cajoled many Romans into celebrating the birth of Jesus instead of the birth of the sun.
Romans “were still able to enjoy the trappings of these midwinter festivals,” (Santa Claus, a Biography, by Gerry Bowler) In reality, they “continued to mark the new days with old ways.”
Christmas is therefore a pagan Roman festival dressed up to look "Christian".
Paul's warning is being ignored....2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
Mixing true worship with false worship brings God's condemnation. The Jews tried to do that and God punished them most severely for it. We are to quit touching what is spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes...yet Christendom embraces these celebrations with gusto.
But how is it OK to lie to children?
The excessive feasting and drinking.....the gift giving and singing carols in the street....are all seen in the old Roman festival. The only thing that changed was the name.
For the secular world, Christmas is nothing more that a commercial 'greedfest'. Its an excuse for gluttony and drunkenness where I live....fools and their money are soon parted.
Domestic violence is always at a peak, and "happy families" are now torn apart by a massive divorce rate, where people often squabble over where their kids will eat Christmas dinner....and who can give them the most expensive gifts.
When people say that they should "put Christ back into Christmas", it should be known that he was never there in the first place.
Christ’s forerunner, John the Baptist, was of the priestly family of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. (Luke1:5, 13) Therefore he would have entered upon his assigned work at the age of thirty years. (Numbers 4:3)
John was six months older than Jesus. (Luke 1:24, 26, 35, 36) Since Jesus also began his ministry when he was “about thirty years old,” John would have been preaching for about six months before Jesus approached him for baptism. (Luke 3:23)
Now, John began his work “in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,” the Roman emperor. (Luke 3:1,2) Historical records show that Tiberius began to rule on August 17, 14 C.E. (according to the Gregorian calendar). By Roman reckoning Tiberius’ first year ran from the date he took power, August 17, 14 C.E., to August 17, 15 C.E. His fifteenth year would run from August 17, 28 C.E., to August 17, 29 C.E. Therefore, even if John began his work on August 17, 28 C.E., Jesus, coming to John about six months later, did not approach him until, at the very earliest, sometime in February of 29 C.E. Accordingly, Jesus’ birth thirty years earlier would fall in the year 2 B.C.E. not 4 or 6 B.C.E., as some calculate.
In the fourth century C.E., the Catholic Church instituted Christmas. The church wanted to strengthen its position by removing one of the main obstacles in its way—the popularity of the pagan Roman religions and their winter solstice festivals. Each year, from December 17 through January 1, “most Romans feasted, gamed, reveled, paraded, and joined in other festivities as they paid homage to their deities,” (Christmas in America, by Penne L. Restad) And on December 25, the Romans celebrated the birth of the Invincible Sun. Instituting Christmas on that day, the church cajoled many Romans into celebrating the birth of Jesus instead of the birth of the sun.
Romans “were still able to enjoy the trappings of these midwinter festivals,” (Santa Claus, a Biography, by Gerry Bowler) In reality, they “continued to mark the new days with old ways.”
Christmas is therefore a pagan Roman festival dressed up to look "Christian".
Paul's warning is being ignored....2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
Mixing true worship with false worship brings God's condemnation. The Jews tried to do that and God punished them most severely for it. We are to quit touching what is spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes...yet Christendom embraces these celebrations with gusto.
But how is it OK to lie to children?
The excessive feasting and drinking.....the gift giving and singing carols in the street....are all seen in the old Roman festival. The only thing that changed was the name.
For the secular world, Christmas is nothing more that a commercial 'greedfest'. Its an excuse for gluttony and drunkenness where I live....fools and their money are soon parted.
Domestic violence is always at a peak, and "happy families" are now torn apart by a massive divorce rate, where people often squabble over where their kids will eat Christmas dinner....and who can give them the most expensive gifts.
When people say that they should "put Christ back into Christmas", it should be known that he was never there in the first place.
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