Christ's Birth - Sept. 11, 3 BC

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Ronald David Bruno

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Do you think that the Jews know how to interpret their own scripture?

Yes ... but that Hebrew translation was not what you first quoted! And yes the Jews know the scriptures but are still blind to Jesus and so all Messianic prophecies are not neccesarily misinterpreted, they just don't make the connection with Jesus as being the fulfillment of them. So as you can see, they so nit make the connection of Exodus 3:14, 15 with Jesus - and not so you.


this was, (as most names were in those days) something meaningful about his actions towards his people....it was a statement of his intentions to "BE" or to "BECOME" whatever he needed to be in order to accomplish his will and purpose.

Right, it was more of a verb and a noun, the attributes of God.

But if God's name doesn't mean "I AM", then it has no connection whatsoever to John 8:58. Jesus was asked a question about his age, not whether he was God.
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Once again; I am", in Exodus 3 was an introduction to the list of "I am's" in the book of John.
They are as you mentioned actions of Who is, was and is to come. He was was also to present Himself as God in the flesh Who would dwell among us.
"I am the Bread of Life";
"I am the Good Shepherd";
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life";
"I am the Resurrection and the Life;
"I am the Doorway";
"I am the Vine";
"I am th Alpha and the Omega";
"I am He"
Capisce?

If claiming to be "God's son" got their knickers in a twist, imagine the outcry if he had claimed to be God

Jesud did claim to be equal with His Father, that is what bent them out of shape.

“I have existed before Abraham was born.” Schonfield and An American Translation:
“I existed before Abraham was born.” Stage (German):
“Before Abraham came to be, I was.” Pfaefflin (German):
“Before there was an Abraham, I was already there!” George M. Lamsa, translating from the Syriac Peshitta, says: “Before Abraham was born, I was.”
Dr. James Murdock, also translating from the Syriac Peshitto Version, says: “Before Abraham existed, I was.”

All mis-interpreted deflections from exactly what He did utter: "Before Abraham was, I am." He was referring to that introduction with Moses and they knew it.

."Before Abraham was, I was"...not "I am". (present tense)

Go to the Bible Gateway and you can see 40 or so English translations and they all say the same. Dozens of scholars with PHds in Koine Greek, Hebrew, specializing in Hermeneutics and all of them Christian theologians have labored for sometimes many years to complete just one translation.
Btw, do you know who Fredrick Franz is? In the 50's he translated the NWT. He had two years of Greek and in a coutroom of law, could not translate one verse of Hebrew.
Almost all Christian Scholars throughout the world claim that the NWT is the only Bible translated to conform to a belief system - that radically differs from main stream Chrisitianity. It is sad, but your Bible has been changed and so you have been deceived on many counts. Words have been added and taken away.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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FWIW......it is generally acknowledged by Bible scholars that December 25 is not the date of Christ’s birth. In fact, the Bible does not pinpoint the date of Jesus’ birth at all, but it does give us information to the effect that it was not in the winter season. Luke provides the following
I agree, hence my OP. But I don't have a problem with celebrating it on Dec. 25th. They picked day and it seemed to erase that pagan day, so good. Love just smothers out evil all the time. :) Anyways, it is a day of joy, peace and love - regardless of what the opposers say - a minute amount only. Even non - Christians love the day. It has some of the best musical songs ever written.
Christmas is therefore a pagan Roman festival dressed up to look "Christian".
No, it has nothing to do with paganism. It has become too commercial. But people buy gifts and receive. We do that kind of thing throughout the year, giving and receiving, an expression of love, that we care for a person enough to think about them. And yes, many holidays force the masses to take off from work and spend time with their loved ones - how horrible, how pagan ... how so in opposition to the JW org. Clan.

Mixing true worship with false worship brings God's condemnation
If you do not have a true concept of Who Jesus really is AND btw, Who the Holy Spirit is, you may not be worshipping and communing with the All Mighty in a holy way at all.


For the secular world, Christmas is nothing more that a commercial 'greedfest'. Its an excuse for gluttony and drunkenness where I live....fools and their money are soon parted.
Domestic violence is always at a peak, and "happy families" are now torn apart by a massive divorce rate, where people often squabble over where their kids will eat Christmas dinner....and who can give them the most expensive gifts.
Don't see that, never did. Oh people may get drunk and that is not healthy for them or anyone around them. But I was brought up in a secular home. Christmas was always a joy and great excitement and anticipation for kids. We woke up and opened lots of toys and games, stockings filled with goodies and later the relatives would come over and we would feast. I have a lifetime of good memories and most people do.
Wow, the food and desserts - actually all the holidays were good.
People like to feast, sing and dance and enjoy each other - it is a part of life. The Jews had many feasts as well. We all thank God for everyone and every blessing each time.
 
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Cooper

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Well sorry to burst your bubble, but the "star" in heaven was not a star but most likely the shechinah glory of God! Stars do not travel east and then west, then north and do not hover over a certain place as this astral phenomena did!

We will not know the exact date of Jesus birth by our current western calender until we see Him, but knowing the day o fHis birth is an irrelancy . Knowing that He died and rose on days is what matters.
Further info
I'm a retired Navigator ... and I do know a bit about AstroNav.

1. We know Jesus was born and we know roughly when.

2. The Arabs (2000 or [many] more years ago) were accomplished AstroNavigators. Not only did they plot the night sky (and name the stars - the names we use today are the names they gave them) but they also quantified many rules which still hold today. They were brilliant mathematicians (they gave us inter alia Al Gebr' w'al Muqabala [you may have encountered that in school]) and they were known to use Astro to travel.

In all probability, Jesus was not born at 0 AD.

In September 6 BC, there was a significant planetary alignment.

Mercury, Venus and Mars were aligned and reflected the light of the sun. It was brilliant and appeared brighter than any star in the night sky.

(I didn't see it - I'm not that old - but it happened again in 1986 and that alignment did indeed produce a 'new body' which appeared as a very bright light.) It doesn't happen very often - You won't see it again in your lifetime.

Stars are (effectively) stationary in the sky. (They appear to move at 15.06 degree per hour, but that's due to the rotation of the earth.)

Planets - much nearer - do track across the night sky.

It is not unreasonable to believe that Arab astronomers might have 'followed a star' if that 'star' was a bright object formed by 3 planets in conjunction. They were well aware that stars are (effectively) fixed in space, but the new 'star' - which would've been visible as such for a week or two - moved.

Rupert Baheer
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Ronald Nolette

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Again they “must have”...really?
huh
Why “must they” have known about a child born to a small and rather obscure nation, now subjugated by the dominant world power? The Jews at that time were not really even a nation. They were scattered about. They had no homeland nor did they even have a military force. The Romans allowed them a measure of freedom of worship, but when Jesus was arrested and charged with a capital crime (under Jewish law), Pilate tried to free him because he had not contravened any Roman law. It was only when the wicked Pharisees threatened to report him to Caesar for treason, that he washed his hands of blood guilt and handed him over.


They did have a homeland, it was just under subjugation. Yes there were many still in the first diaspora who had refused to go back to Israel when ArteXerxes gave Nehemiah to go back and Darius and Cyrus gave Zerubbael permission to leads the Jews back to Israel. So though under subjugation, they still had their homeland and returned o to it.

Astrology would not have told them of a child being born in a little backwater nation like Israel, but Daniels writings definitely would have! Anbd they would have read that He would rule the world!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Further info
I'm a retired Navigator ... and I do know a bit about AstroNav.

1. We know Jesus was born and we know roughly when.

2. The Arabs (2000 or [many] more years ago) were accomplished AstroNavigators. Not only did they plot the night sky (and name the stars - the names we use today are the names they gave them) but they also quantified many rules which still hold today. They were brilliant mathematicians (they gave us inter alia Al Gebr' w'al Muqabala [you may have encountered that in school]) and they were known to use Astro to travel.

In all probability, Jesus was not born at 0 AD.

In September 6 BC, there was a significant planetary alignment.

Mercury, Venus and Mars were aligned and reflected the light of the sun. It was brilliant and appeared brighter than any star in the night sky.

(I didn't see it - I'm not that old - but it happened again in 1986 and that alignment did indeed produce a 'new body' which appeared as a very bright light.) It doesn't happen very often - You won't see it again in your lifetime.

Stars are (effectively) stationary in the sky. (They appear to move at 15.06 degree per hour, but that's due to the rotation of the earth.)

Planets - much nearer - do track across the night sky.

It is not unreasonable to believe that Arab astronomers might have 'followed a star' if that 'star' was a bright object formed by 3 planets in conjunction. They were well aware that stars are (effectively) fixed in space, but the new 'star' - which would've been visible as such for a week or two - moved.

Rupert Baheer
.


Excellent work, but several errors in reaching your conclusion.

Yes stars seem stationary in the night sky, always appearing in the same proximity night after night.

1.These maji were not Arabs but Persians from the now subjugated Persian Empire!
2. In all probability they were zorastrians and held sway i the courts of whatever ruler was there under Roman permission.
3. If not in Babylon then a major city where a library was located. there they would have access to Daniels writings.
4. Stars do not travel north-south as this "star" did.
5. Stars cannot point to a specific house as this star did.

Matthew 2:9
King James Version

9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Don't know how any star can stand over a particular house or go north to south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem to lead the maji. Stars appear to travel east-west in the night sky.
 
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Cooper

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Excellent work, but several errors in reaching your conclusion.

Yes stars seem stationary in the night sky, always appearing in the same proximity night after night.

1.These maji were not Arabs but Persians from the now subjugated Persian Empire!
2. In all probability they were zorastrians and held sway i the courts of whatever ruler was there under Roman permission.
3. If not in Babylon then a major city where a library was located. there they would have access to Daniels writings.
4. Stars do not travel north-south as this "star" did.
5. Stars cannot point to a specific house as this star did.

Matthew 2:9
King James Version

9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

Don't know how any star can stand over a particular house or go north to south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem to lead the maji. Stars appear to travel east-west in the night sky.
Not MY conclusion. I gave the writer's name at the bottom. Nor am I a retired navigator so, not my conclusion. I trust people who have done the work above all others.......
.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Not MY conclusion. I gave the writer's name at the bottom. Nor am I a retired navigator so, not my conclusion. I trust people who have done the work above all others.......
.

Do9ing work is noble, but if our work leads us to conclusions Scripture cannot support, then it is work in vain, we need to look at all these setters of dates for Christs birth through the micrscope of biblical words. No star can stand over a house where a young child lives! so that rules out any astronomical or astrological conclusions no matter what kind of conjunctiopn of plaents took place.
 

Aunty Jane

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They did have a homeland, it was just under subjugation. Yes there were many still in the first diaspora who had refused to go back to Israel when ArteXerxes gave Nehemiah to go back and Darius and Cyrus gave Zerubbael permission to leads the Jews back to Israel. So though under subjugation, they still had their homeland and returned o to it.

Astrology would not have told them of a child being born in a little backwater nation like Israel, but Daniels writings definitely would have! Anbd they would have read that He would rule the world!
There is a major flaw in your reasoning that Daniel was inspired to write about in connection with his prophesies.....

Daniel 12:1-4.....in prophesy concerning "the time of the end".....
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who have insight will shine like the glow of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”

So Michael the Great Prince stands guard over God's people, which in "the time of the end" is NOT the fleshly Jews.
Please show me where Michael is standing guard over literal Israel today.....their homeland is wracked with religious violence and bloodshed.
Literal Israel have allied themselves with nations whose worship they despise.....its a very fake form of 'insurance' if one is trusting in their God.

Daniel 12:8-10, Daniel is inspired to repeat...
"But as for me, I heard but did not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

So Daniel's prophesies, even if they had been known by the Magi, they would not have understood them....that knowledge was reserved for the "time of the end"....since we are living in those times right now......only now, do God's true servants know the truth.
The "wicked" (by God's definition, not man's) would understand nothing and would be given no insight into anything....the majority would be clueless, in a world falling down around their ears.
 

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There is a major flaw in your reasoning that Daniel was inspired to write about in connection with his prophesies.....

Daniel 12:1-4.....in prophesy concerning "the time of the end".....
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who have insight will shine like the glow of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”

So Michael the Great Prince stands guard over God's people, which in "the time of the end" is NOT the fleshly Jews.
Please show me where Michael is standing guard over literal Israel today.....their homeland is wracked with religious violence and bloodshed.
Literal Israel have allied themselves with nations whose worship they despise.....its a very fake form of 'insurance' if one is trusting in their God.

Daniel 12:8-10, Daniel is inspired to repeat...
"But as for me, I heard but did not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

So Daniel's prophesies, even if they had been known by the Magi, they would not have understood them....that knowledge was reserved for the "time of the end"....since we are living in those times right now......only now, do God's true servants know the truth.
The "wicked" (by God's definition, not man's) would understand nothing and would be given no insight into anything....the majority would be clueless, in a world falling down around their ears.

Are you denying the truth of Daniel?
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Cooper

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Do9ing work is noble, but if our work leads us to conclusions Scripture cannot support, then it is work in vain, we need to look at all these setters of dates for Christs birth through the micrscope of biblical words. No star can stand over a house where a young child lives! so that rules out any astronomical or astrological conclusions no matter what kind of conjunctiopn of plaents took place.

When you say the above, are you denying the truth of scripture?
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Cooper

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Gen. 1:14 tells us the sun, moon and stars are also used for signs. A constellation and a star (likely the planet Jupiter) were used by the Magi. According to a sign in the Heavens in Rev. 12:1,2 ( in which a this constellation appeared around Jesus Birth), Jesus was born on Sept. 11, 3 BC ... calculated to within a 81 minute window.
(Sunset @ 6:18PM and Moonset @ 7:39PM)
This would have been Tishri 1, The first day of the Feast of Trumpets;
The anniversary of the first day of Creation;
Also the Birthday of Noah.
This would mean Jesus was 33 1/2 years old if He was crucified in 31 AD.

It has always been a question when Jesus was really born. It could have been on a pagan holiday, to overshadow that holiday and erase it. But since the shepherds were tending to sheep that were grazing out in the fields, it probably didn't happen in winter. I guess they could have had a warm year. Sheep and cattle di sift through the snow to get at dead grass too, dont they? I don't know.
This study goes into detail about it.

When Was Jesus Christ Born? The Bible Says September 11, 3BC-The Day of the Feast of Trumpets
I read something similar years ago. There is a few days difference, but I am happy to accept either one or both explanations.

Before the name “Christmas” was invented, December 25th was celebrated as “The Great Miracle”. But they were not celebrating the birth of JESUS. The one thing about the First Corning of our Messiah that is not miraculous was His birth. His birth was just like yours and mine. What our forefathers were celebrating was the Great Miracle of His Conception, which was not a bit like mine or yours! So the first riddle to unscramble is the “nine-months-out” one.

But surely, we celebrate the Lord's conception on March 25th, calling it the “Annunciation” because of Gabriel’s announcement to Mary. Yes, traditionally we do, which raises the question, ‘who is right? Us or Them?’

The answer can be detected in Dr. Luke's book. He is the Sherlock Holmes of the Gospel, having “carefully investigated everything from the beginning” so as to give us “an orderly account” —Luke 1:3.

There’s nothing like starting at the beginning, so he investigates the Reverend Zechariah’s run-in with the archangel Gabriel. Straightway he discovers a date — very useful things, dates. As one of many priests in those days, you might only get one shot at ministering in the Temple. Each year you would wonder if your name would come up. The only thing you knew for certain was the fortnight in the year when your “division” was on call.

It was King David who ordered the organizing of the priests into twenty-four fortnightly tours of duty, according to their family-groups, through the months of the Jewish Year (1.Chron. 24:6-19). Zechariah was of the 8th Division of Abijah —Luke 1:5, and according to the Jewish calendar this falls in the month of “Tammuz”. By our calendar this is around the end of June and beginning of July.

So it was that the LORD GOD made His first move to fulfill His promise to save us, and here we discover something wonderful. The name Zechariah means “to remember” and his wife’s name, Elizabeth, means “God’s Promise” --their joined names: “God remembers His Promise”! Alleluia!

You know the story of Zechariah being struck dumb in the middle of Evensong —Luke 1:8-22. You don’t argue with archangels, you say “Yes, sir.” Gabriel had told this old man to go home and have a word with his wife and start a baby, at their time of life an act of faith and a daunting prospect!

So now we have our first date-clue: Elizabeth became pregnant with John-the-Baptist sometime in July that year! Then Dr. Luke tells us that when she was six months pregnant, Gabriel visits Mary with the offer of the ultimate Spiritual Gift, to conceive, carry and give birth to JESUS, the SON OF GOD.

Already we have another all-important date —that it was December, according to our calendar, when Elizabeth was “in her sixth month”, when JESUS was conceived —Luke 1 :26-38. This tells us that the birth of JESUS was at the end of September, during the Jewish Feast of “Tabernacles”.

Now here is another of those wonderful things: according to the Prophet Zechariah (same name, different bloke, happy coincidence!) the LORD’s Second Coming also seems to be at the Feast of Tabernacles, and will be celebrated thereafter, every year, at that Feast —Zechariah chapter 14.

But we must return to Bethlehem and do some sleuthing. Luke immediately gets into the story-line, but Matthew, whose Gospel was always set first in the New Testament, appears to be incredibly boring. He begins with one of those family-trees which we are tempted to think could have been left out. How wrong we are to think so.

There are two clues in Matthew’s list that are vital for Christians in any generation to know. First, it was outrageous of him to include women’s names -- not done in Jewish practice. But when you realize that all were Gentiles, of whom the first was guilty of incest, the second a prostitute, the third a decent lass but a Gentile nonetheless, and the fourth the unmentionable Bathsheba! -- then you begin to see that Matthew was stirring the pot. He is warning that this family-tree is a nonstarter.

The clincher comes in verses 11 and 12, with the mention of King Jeconiah, also known as Coniah and Jehoiachin; probably the wickedest king Israel had. If you take your magnifying- glass and scrutinize Jeremiah 22:24-30, you will discover that none of this wretched king’s descendants would be allowed to succeed to the throne of David. Now the Messiah must be “of David’s line.” What Matthew is doing is proving the Virgin Birth: that Joseph could not have been the father of JESUS, the Messiah —for this is Joseph’s family tree. Joseph himself adds his personal testimony to the virginity of Mary, and that he was not the father of JESUS. Say ‘thank You’ for Joseph. Luke’s family-tree is Mary’s line, which is A-OK —Luke 3:23-38.

There is an easily missed clue in what the angels said to the shepherds, “This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Our God speaks clearly and very often confirms His word. So, it’s not every day that you find a baby lying in an animals’ feeding-trough. That alone would have done it for those shepherds. Where do you find a manger in a town? In a stable, of course. So check the stables first. But just in case there should be another baby lying in a manger in Bethlehem, the LORD provides a second clue: “ wrapped in cloths..”

That we are up against here is the old ‘‘chicken or egg” question. The great King James version says, “wrapped in swaddling-clothes.” Now almost all cultures wrap-up babies in cloths of some kind, both for warmth and to simulate the sense of security they have had in the womb. “Swaddling-clothes,” therefore, have become identified in English with ‘what you wrap a newborn baby in’. But there’s something wrong here!

Continued:
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From the previous post:

The angels said that “a baby wrapped in cloths” was part of the sign to enable the shepherds to identify the Messiah. It would hardly have been a sign if JESUS had been wrapped-up in the usual way. So, my dear Watson, it follows that “wrapped in cloths” means something unusual!

Christian Jewish scholars are often more familiar with the expressions current in the days of the First Coming. The Greek expression used is “having been swathed.” Actually, we hardly need the scholars, we have another ancient English term which says it all, “winding-sheets.” Before the days of undertakers, families usually kept some strips of linen with which to wrap those who had died for burial. What the shepherds were looking for was a baby in a shroud!

If this sounds too bizarre, consider: “No room at the inn;” sudden birth in a stable; and all kinds of help required, including something to wrap the baby in. It makes sense to realize that the innkeepers would have some winding-sheets available “just in case!” Whatever the cloths were like in those days, they were clearly distinctive enough for those shepherds to know that this was the baby they had been told about. Not only was his cradle unusual, but his wrappings were notably different.

What is God up to in all this? By the stable and manger He is prophesying the rejection of His SON; and by the winding-cloths His death. As T.S.Elliot puts into the mouth of Thomas Becket, in “Murder in the Cathedral” —“The Cross is never far from Christmas Day!” Becket was murdered on December 29th.

Our detective-story has another truth to uncover. The ‘traditional Christmas’ wants everyone on stage! Winged- angels, even though they don’t have any!, numerous animals, the Holy Family of course, the shepherds, complete with a Welsh sheepdog, and those Wise Men, who actually arrived at least a year later. It is the timing of the Wise Men’s visit that is the clue as to what year Christ was born, and we are greatly aided here by the renowned historian of those times, Josephus.

Herod the Great (so-called for rebuilding the Temple) died in 4 BC The decree for the census, which brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem, was issued in 8 BC Jospehus records two vital facts: during the year 8 BC Herod was away fighting a war; and for a year before he died, 5 BC, he had left Jerusalem and remained at his home in Jericho.

The Wise Men (astrologers) visited Herod in Jerusalem when JESUS was a child. The Greek word used for “child” indicates a toddler, not an infant, so we are looking at about 15 months after His birth. When you piece all these together we can date the birth of JESUS in 7 BC, and the visit of the Wise Men at the end of 6 BC, or the beginning of 5 BC, with reasonable accuracy.

Perhaps the most fascinating Christmas detective story concerns the identity of these Astrologers, as the Bible describes them. It is a real pity that we have ignored the Scriptures and settled for the fiction that one was African, one was Chinese and the third European. So rally round, you Sherlocks, and be amazed!

First, how many were there? Answer: we don’t know. At least two, could be many more. We imagine three because of the three gifts. Despite the stories which tell of “Caspar, Melchior and Balthazzar” etc., we don’t know their names. So what do we know about them?

They came from the “east” and, as we shall see, this means Iraq, or Babylon as it was then. They came because they “saw a great light”— which is a better translation than “star”. Why can we say that? Because neither stars, planets, asteroids nor comets behave like this “great light” did. Our planet-earth would have been in deep trouble if it had been one of those! In any case we have already been told about this “great light”. It had appeared to the shepherds, where it is described as “the glory of the LORD.” The Bible is full of references to this “glory”. It is known as the “Shekinah-Glory” — the visible Presence of God dwelling with His people. The best known examples are the “burning bush” and the “pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night”; and from the Gospel “JESUS was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun and His clothes became as white as the light!” Such a Great Light can move around and even appear over a house, as it did for our Wise Men.

So we find a group of astrologers in Babylon seeing this Light in the direction of Jerusalem, at the time of Christ’s birth. Then, about fifteen months later, they arrive in Jerusalem, and ask, “Where is the One who has been born ‘King of the Jews’?” This faces us with three questions: Why are Babylonian astrologers concerned with the birth of a Jewish King? Why do they associate this event with the Light they have seen? And where are they getting their information from?

If you give this a little thought, you will probably remember that the Jews had spent seventy years in exile in Babylon, about 500 years before. Also, we have a Book in the Bible that was written in Babylon at that time, the Book of Daniel. We know that Daniel and his companions were forced to associate with the School of Babylonian Astrology, though they never compromised their own faith in the God of Israel. Astrology was the sort-of-religion practiced in Babylon, and had been for centuries.

Daniel, by interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, was able to save the lives of those astrologers who had been unable to do so. He and his companions became highly esteemed in Babylon. We know that God thinks of everything: so when we learn that the Book of Daniel was written in Aramaic, instead of Hebrew, so that the Babylonian astrologers could read it, then we know that God is up to something! We can be sure that the Book of Daniel was kept among their sacred writings.

In Daniel chapter 9:20-24 the Coming of the Messiah is prophesied for 490 years hence. Being astrologers, with a great love of numbers, they would have been half-expecting something to happen. But why were they so sure that the Bright Light was the sign to look for?

The Babylonian astrologers had information about this Light in their ancient records —just as the Jews had in the Old Testament. Come, detectives-all, to the Book of Numbers and the days of Israel’s desert-wanderings. Do you recall that the King of Moab wanted to do the dirty on Israel? He knew of an astrologer-cum-prophet of great reputation, a certain “Balaam, son of Beor.” He must have been well known, far and wide, because in the Book of Numbers, chapter 22:5, we are told that he lived at Pethor, near the River Euphrates in Babylon! The king of Moab sent all that way for him to come and curse Israel. We remember the story of how God prevented Balaam from doing this, even though he wanted the money! God revealed to him that Israel was a Chosen People with a particular destiny. The story is traced in Numbers, chapters 22 to 24. In 24:17-19 Balaam utters these momentous words,

“I see Him — but not now!
I behold Him — but not near!
A star will come out of Jacob;
A sceptre will arise out of Israel.
A ruler will come out of Jacob..”

I wonder how long it took them to discover the clues and put the pieces together. But when they had, they set out to discover what the God of Israel — acknowledged by Balaam; the God of Daniel — had planned for them.

Keeping our Sherlock Holmes’ deerstalker hat firmly on our heads, ask yourselves what kind of ‘arrival’ in Jerusalem could have stirred-up so much concern: “When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.” It is only one opinion, but I believe that it must have been a whole company of senior astrologers, probably with a Babylonian dignitary and a caravan of servants, that descended on Jerusalem and put a cat among the pigeons!

A word about Herod: he should be called Herod-the-Paranoid! He was convinced that someone was out to get him. Various historical records reveal that this led him to kill his favourite wife, Meriomni, and no fewer than four of his sons! Caesar Augustus joked about him and said, “It is safer to be Herod’s pig than his son!” Little wonder that he ordered the slaughter of all the boys up to two years old in the whole Bethlehem area. This also tells us how long before it had been that the astrologers and seen the Great Light.

So we have the answer to the question, why did Joseph and Mary stay so long in Bethlehem instead of getting back to Nazareth? Allowing that the census business would probably take ages to deal with, surely the LORD was ensuring that they were in the south and on the route to Egypt — providing for their getaway. In the meantime Joseph, as we would expect, had rented a house for them, and it was there, led by the Glory-Light, that the astrologers found them.

There is something heart-stopping about the picture of that little Boy tottering towards those gifts — handling the gold that would pay for their years in Egypt, the incense of priesthood, and the myrrh of death.

So has it been worth it, this detective journey to the truths about Christmas? Knowing this, is there anything we should do? Ought we to embrace a new calendar, and leave the world to its Father Christmas extravaganza, its sentimental children’s festival that gives presents, but fails to understand their meaning, a festival which has no cross and has no crown?


8 BC July, say the 25th Zechariah & Elizabeth conceive John-the-Baptist;

8 BC December 25th Mary conceives JESUS by the HOLY SPIRIT “The Great Miracle” celebrated by the early Church;

7 BC March, say 25th John-the-Baptist is born and Zechariah is healed;

7 BC September say 25th JESUS is born in Bethlehem during the Feast of Tabernacles;

5 BC January 6th The Astrologers arrive in Jerusalem, and enquire about the birthplace of the Messiah; they visit the Child Messiah and offer their gifts; this is the Feast of Epiphany, ”The Light of Christ”.
.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Zechariah was of the 8th Division of Abijah —Luke 1:5, and according to the Jewish calendar this falls in the month of “Tammuz”. By our calendar this is around the end of June and beginning of July.

[If the courses served in the same weeks of every year, this would have the Abijah division coming on duty
§ Passover week: beginning the second Sabbath in Nisan (March-April).
§ Pentecost week: beginning the first Sabbath in Sivan (May-June).
§ The tenth week of the year: beginning the second Sabbath in Sivan (May-June). (Abijah was the eighth course; the two pilgrimage festivals throws the rotation off by two weeks, resulting in the tenth week.)
§ The thirty-fourth week of the year: beginning the second Sabbath in Tishrei (September-October). (Twenty-four weeks later) This places the course of Abijah on duty on the Day of Atonement, Tishrei 10.
§ Tabernacles week: beginning the third Sabbath in Tishrei (September-October).
Assuming John was conceived within the week after Zechariah returned from his temple service, the May-June date would yield a date for the birth of Jesus in the fall; if the September-October date is preferred, the result is Jesus being born in winter. In other words, either of the prevailing theories can be supported by this method of calculation!

If, however, the divisions drifted through the year to keep strict time with the count of weeks—and if this week count was not interrupted by leap years—then we can calculate backward from Jehoiarib’s service the first week of April in AD 70.
If we bracket out for the moment the three weeks of the year when all twenty-four courses were on duty, we find by this approach that the course of Abijah would have come on duty during only one week that would yield a Christmas date within our established parameters. A week of service for the course of Abijah would have begun on June 23, 4 BC (Sivan 27, AM 3757).

Assuming John was conceived around July 1-7, this gives a date of the Annunciation around December 30-January 5, 3 BC and a date for the birth of Christ around September 22-28, 3 BC, during the feast of Tabernacles. It should also be noted that the date of the Annunciation by this reckoning falls very close to January 6, the feast of the Epiphany, which in ancient times may have marked the celebration not of the birth of Christ per se, but the fact of the incarnation.] by DARRELL J. PURSIFUL

This throws off the OP date by a couple weeks, but is in reasonable proximity.


There is an easily missed clue in what the angels said to the shepherds, “This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

That is an interesting observation. I never thought of part of the search was to find a baby wrapped in abnormal clothes as well as being in a manger..


Herod the Great (so-called for rebuilding the Temple) died in 4 BC

I already discussed an alternate date for Herod's death, at the end of 1BC. Josephus tied his death to an eclipse. However, there was a more prominent one on Dec. 29, 1 BC. (see post #50)

They came from the “east” and, as we shall see, this means Iraq, or Babylon as it was then. They came because they “saw a great light”— which is a better translation than “star”.

I commented on this as well. Why the Shekinah glory be called a star? It was seen AND identified in the burning bush or the cloud or in the Holy of Holies? Why not just reveal the light as God. Why even would an angel be called a star, even thought they are referred to as such? The Morning Star, etc. There were angels at the scene, why didn't scripture say there were more stars worshipping Jesus with the shepherds in the field?

So we find a group of astrologers in Babylon seeing this Light in the direction of Jerusalem, at the time of Christ’s birth. Then, about fifteen months later, they arrive in Jerusalem, and ask, “Where is the One who has been born ‘King of the Jews’?” This faces us with three questions: Why are Babylonian astrologers concerned with the birth of a Jewish King? Why do they associate this event with the Light they have seen? And where are they getting their information from?

If you give this a little thought, you will probably remember that the Jews had spent seventy years in exile in Babylon, about 500 years before. Also, we have a Book in the Bible that was written in Babylon at that time, the Book of Daniel. We know that Daniel and his companions were forced to associate with the School of Babylonian Astrology, though they never compromised their own faith in the God of Israel. Astrology was the sort-of-religion practiced in Babylon, and had been for centuries.

Daniel, by interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, was able to save the lives of those astrologers who had been unable to do so. He and his companions became highly esteemed in Babylon. We know that God thinks of everything: so when we learn that the Book of Daniel was written in Aramaic, instead of Hebrew, so that the Babylonian astrologers could read it, then we know that God is up to something! We can be sure that the Book of Daniel was kept among their sacred writings.

In Daniel chapter 9:20-24 the Coming of the Messiah is prophesied for 490 years hence...

I touched on where the Magi were from in post #51 and that they were astronomers. Then I got into the knowledge they possessed most assuredly coming from Babylonian history, specifically pertaining to Daniel, in post #56

Cooper, You have a good story here though, behind the scenes info, you dig deep Sherlock. I learned some things, so thank you for sharing. At least we were close on the month, just not the year.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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QUOTE="Aunty Jane, post: 1129491, member: 13098"]How well indoctrinated you are. I was raised in mainstream Christendom.....I know full well what is taught and from my studies of the Bible I can see exactly where you are coming from.....I was there once......but I see that your own prejudice is getting in the way of truth....pure scriptural unadulterated truth, no imagination required. I really don't think anyone in Christendom would know the truth if it jumped up and bit them.....but such is life....you go your way and I will go mine...we will all have to face the same judge...won't we?[/QUOTE]

You haven't admitted that you are a Jehovah Witness. As many times as I brought it up, if you weren't, you would have immediately made that clear. WHY are you hiding this? Are you trying to influence the Christian body incognito ... a top secret mission to lure us away as you futily try to do you when you go to service and knock on doors. Aunty Jane , 007. This doesn't work with us. You are communicating to grounded, born again Christians, baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and these guys in this thread are pretty knowledgable.
You are wasting your time trying to influence any mature Christian ti drop our beliefs and and substitute it for a Watchtower tract. You might lure someone who is on the fence, not saved yet, but your numbers speak for themselves.
The JW org. (in the USA alone) knocks on doors for some 200 million hours every year. Wow, impressive. But there is no fruit to your labor - unless the Holy Spirit uses your seed (His Word) that you planted and brings that person to a Church that God has grown. So don't worry, His Word does not go out void, nor does the work of the Holy Spirit - Whom you are not familiar with.
In over a hundred years, JW'S have accrued only a mere 8+ million. Really, is God that weak?
In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now there are 2.65 Billion - thats growth 007. God has been growing the Church just fine before Charles Taze Russell came along - did not need his help - thank you very much!

The Church is not perfect in it's totality. We can see this in the first century with the Letters to the Seven Churches in Revelation. Two were good and the rest needed to repent from sins and false doctrines. That's right, 95 AD and they had problems as we do today.
Thankfully, it is not our efforts that get us to Heaven, it is completely the work of Christ. He paid the prjce - IN FULL. And yes, Heaven has plenty of room for billions of souls. You will see. The only prerequisite is faith In Jesus, that he died for our sins and rose on the third day. You go your way too, but really, your clandestine efforts to get Christians over to your side is futile. We are saved already. The Holy Spirit guides us ... You should try asking Him for guidance sometime!
 

Cooper

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[If the courses served in the same weeks of every year, this would have the Abijah division coming on duty
§ Passover week: beginning the second Sabbath in Nisan (March-April).
§ Pentecost week: beginning the first Sabbath in Sivan (May-June).
§ The tenth week of the year: beginning the second Sabbath in Sivan (May-June). (Abijah was the eighth course; the two pilgrimage festivals throws the rotation off by two weeks, resulting in the tenth week.)
§ The thirty-fourth week of the year: beginning the second Sabbath in Tishrei (September-October). (Twenty-four weeks later) This places the course of Abijah on duty on the Day of Atonement, Tishrei 10.
§ Tabernacles week: beginning the third Sabbath in Tishrei (September-October).
Assuming John was conceived within the week after Zechariah returned from his temple service, the May-June date would yield a date for the birth of Jesus in the fall; if the September-October date is preferred, the result is Jesus being born in winter. In other words, either of the prevailing theories can be supported by this method of calculation!

If, however, the divisions drifted through the year to keep strict time with the count of weeks—and if this week count was not interrupted by leap years—then we can calculate backward from Jehoiarib’s service the first week of April in AD 70.
If we bracket out for the moment the three weeks of the year when all twenty-four courses were on duty, we find by this approach that the course of Abijah would have come on duty during only one week that would yield a Christmas date within our established parameters. A week of service for the course of Abijah would have begun on June 23, 4 BC (Sivan 27, AM 3757).

Assuming John was conceived around July 1-7, this gives a date of the Annunciation around December 30-January 5, 3 BC and a date for the birth of Christ around September 22-28, 3 BC, during the feast of Tabernacles. It should also be noted that the date of the Annunciation by this reckoning falls very close to January 6, the feast of the Epiphany, which in ancient times may have marked the celebration not of the birth of Christ per se, but the fact of the incarnation.] by DARRELL J. PURSIFUL

This throws off the OP date by a couple weeks, but is in reasonable proximity.




That is an interesting observation. I never thought of part of the search was to find a baby wrapped in abnormal clothes as well as being in a manger..




I already discussed an alternate date for Herod's death, at the end of 1BC. Josephus tied his death to an eclipse. However, there was a more prominent one on Dec. 29, 1 BC. (see post #50)



I commented on this as well. Why the Shekinah glory be called a star? It was seen AND identified in the burning bush or the cloud or in the Holy of Holies? Why not just reveal the light as God. Why even would an angel be called a star, even thought they are referred to as such? The Morning Star, etc. There were angels at the scene, why didn't scripture say there were more stars worshipping Jesus with the shepherds in the field?



I touched on where the Magi were from in post #51 and that they were astronomers. Then I got into the knowledge they possessed most assuredly coming from Babylonian history, specifically pertaining to Daniel, in post #56

Cooper, You have a good story here though, behind the scenes info, you dig deep Sherlock. I learned some things, so thank you for sharing. At least we were close on the month, just not the year.
I have to be honest with you. If you go back to the first line of my First post, I did say it was something I read years ago. I am afraid I cannot take credit for it, and I appreciate all the work you put into yours. I'm happy to know that both accounts are only a few days apart which I think is wonderful. God bless and thank you for all your work.
.
 

Ronald Nolette

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There is a major flaw in your reasoning that Daniel was inspired to write about in connection with his prophesies.....

Daniel 12:1-4.....in prophesy concerning "the time of the end".....
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who have insight will shine like the glow of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”

So Michael the Great Prince stands guard over God's people, which in "the time of the end" is NOT the fleshly Jews.
Please show me where Michael is standing guard over literal Israel today.....their homeland is wracked with religious violence and bloodshed.
Literal Israel have allied themselves with nations whose worship they despise.....its a very fake form of 'insurance' if one is trusting in their God.

Daniel 12:8-10, Daniel is inspired to repeat...
"But as for me, I heard but did not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand."

So Daniel's prophesies, even if they had been known by the Magi, they would not have understood them....that knowledge was reserved for the "time of the end"....since we are living in those times right now......only now, do God's true servants know the truth.
The "wicked" (by God's definition, not man's) would understand nothing and would be given no insight into anything....the majority would be clueless, in a world falling down around their ears.


Chapter 12 ffo0r sure, but there are 11 other chapters in the book of Danile. Just in case you weren't aware.
 
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amigo de christo

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About this . Truth is i do not know the day HE was born . BUT I KNOW HE WAS . PRAISE GOD FOR THE GLORIOUS MESISAH KING JESUS .
BORN to suffer and die so the lambs would live forever . PRAISE GOD for the ONE WHOM HE DID SEND . That all WHO DO BELEIVE
would be saved . But beware , for all who do deny HIM shall die a death far worse in a lake of fire that burns fierce .
OH but COME TO THE GLORIOUS LORD , while there is still time to do so , AND LIVE and LIVE FOREVER .
LET the LORD be praised . Yes indeed , LET THE GLORIOUS LORD BE PRAISED .
 

Ronald Nolette

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When you say the above, are you denying the truth of scripture?
.

Of course not! but the smallest star we know of that still has luminescence is about 1,000 times bigger than the earth! Not only is that too big to point out a single home, but if it got close enough, it would turn our planet to ash! Remember stars are nothin more than fission reactors that burn at about 10,000 degrees centigrade. so we conclude it has to be something other than a star.
 

Cooper

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About this . Truth is i do not know the day HE was born . BUT I KNOW HE WAS . PRAISE GOD FOR THE GLORIOUS MESISAH KING JESUS .
BORN to suffer and die so the lambs would live forever . PRAISE GOD for the ONE WHOM HE DID SEND . That all WHO DO BELEIVE
would be saved . But beware , for all who do deny HIM shall die a death far worse in a lake of fire that burns fierce .
OH but COME TO THE GLORIOUS LORD , while there is still time to do so , AND LIVE and LIVE FOREVER .
LET the LORD be praised . Yes indeed , LET THE GLORIOUS LORD BE PRAISED .
And that is all we need to know. :)
.
 
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amigo de christo

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cooper , i dont care what pope francis would say about ya if he knew ya , Just leap up and praise the glorious LORD .
Oh wait , since we are on that note and that name was brought up , I better warn us all , DONT HEED that man
nor any who desire his unity . Cause its a FALSE ONE .