Christ's Birth - Sept. 11, 3 BC

[Cooper]

cooper , i dont care what pope francis would say about ya if he knew ya , Just leap up and praise the glorious LORD .
Oh wait , since we are on that note and that name was brought up , I better warn us all , DONT HEED that man
nor any who desire his unity . Cause its a FALSE ONE .

I steer well clear of wolves in sheep's clothing.
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[Cooper]

Of course not! but the smallest star we know of that still has luminescence is about 1,000 times bigger than the earth! Not only is that too big to point out a single home, but if it got close enough, it would turn our planet to ash! Remember stars are nothin more than fission reactors that burn at about 10,000 degrees centigrade. so we conclude it has to be something other than a star.

If it had been low down like you seem to be thinking, they would not have seen it from a distance. The wise men had undergone a long journey of several weeks, and it guided them in like they were following the pole star. People have used the stars to navigate by since Adam was a boy. That's my opinion anyway.
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[Ronald Nolette]

The wise men had undergone a long journey of several weeks, and it guided them in like they were following the pole star.
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That journey would have taken over 1 1/2 years going byu the established standard caravan routes from Persia and it major cities. It was a journey of just under 1400 miles! the average caravan travelled approximately 20 miles a day.

 

[Cooper]

That journey would have taken over 1 1/2 years going byu the established standard caravan routes from Persia and it major cities. It was a journey of just under 1400 miles! the average caravan travelled approximately 20 miles a day.

That just goes to show that the star was high in the sky to be visible all that way. I do not think the journey took as long as you say, and neither do I have a problem with there being a bright star. Just go with what the Bible says.
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[Aunty Jane]

You haven't admitted that you are a Jehovah Witness. As many times as I brought it up, if you weren't, you would have immediately made that clear. WHY are you hiding this? Are you trying to influence the Christian body incognito ... a top secret mission to lure us away as you futily try to do you when you go to service and knock on doors. Aunty Jane , 007. This doesn't work with us. You are communicating to grounded, born again Christians, baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and these guys in this thread are pretty knowledgable.

Do you really think that God cares about what denomination we are? Is it what we call ourselves that makes what we say, “truth”?

I was a mainstream, died in the wool “Christian” who thought that what I was being taught was “gospel” truth....until I got to the age of reason, and began to question all the things did not make sense to me......then it all went downhill form there. I actually started to study the Bible and saw for myself where Christendom is nothing more than the “weeds” of Jesus parable....a poorly constructed counterfeit “Christianity” who can take what the Bible says and twist it all out of shape in order to justify their errors.

I was rather amused to see you speaking for all the other “fundies” here....”knowledgeable” you say? I haven’t seen any evidence of true Bible knowledge, but just promotion of church doctrine.
In view of Jesus’ parable of the “wheat and the weeds” I see clearly now which is which. You may disagree, but at the end of the day...we will all know for sure, won’t we?

You are wasting your time trying to influence any mature Christian ti drop our beliefs and and substitute it for a Watchtower tract. You might lure someone who is on the fence, not saved yet, but your numbers speak for themselves.

LOL.....really? Did it ever occur to you that Jesus’ preaching had a two fold purpose? One was to show the “lost ones” where to find the truth, and the other was to show up those who did not consider themselves “lost” at all, how mistaken they were in their apostasy.
We only have to read Jesus denunciation of the Pharisees to understand that those lost in their error would paint their opponents as some kind of blight on the world. How did the Jews respond to Jesus and his disciples? All of their persecution came from their own misguided people, whipped up by their wicked leaders. Jesus said it would continue. (John 15:18-21) Why? He said because ‘they did not know the one who sent him’. Christendom does not know the God of Jesus Christ. They worship a different god to the one who sent Jesus into the world....therefore, Christendom is nothing more than a mirror image of apostate Judaism.

The JW org. (in the USA alone) knocks on doors for some 200 million hours every year. Wow, impressive. But there is no fruit to your labor - unless the Holy Spirit uses your seed (His Word) that you planted and brings that person to a Church that God has grown. So don't worry, His Word does not go out void, nor does the work of the Holy Spirit - Whom you are not familiar with.
In over a hundred years, JW'S have accrued only a mere 8+ million. Really, is God that weak?
In 1900, there were 500 million Christians and now there are 2.65 Billion - thats growth 007. God has been growing the Church just fine before Charles Taze Russell came along - did not need his help - thank you very much!

So you think it’s all about the numbers, do you? Since when have God’s people ever been in a majority? The devil has the majority.....always. He is good at his job since he has had thousands of years to learn exactly how to deceive people so thoroughly that they never suspect.

The road to life has “few”, not “many” travellers...they are on the other road “to destruction”. So be careful about your bragging there. The path you are following may not lead where you assume it might....and you may have lots of company. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)

The Church is not perfect in it's totality. We can see this in the first century with the Letters to the Seven Churches in Revelation. Two were good and the rest needed to repent from sins and false doctrines. That's right, 95 AD and they had problems as we do today.
Thankfully, it is not our efforts that get us to Heaven, it is completely the work of Christ. He paid the prjce - IN FULL. And yes, Heaven has plenty of room for billions of souls. You will see. The only prerequisite is faith In Jesus, that he died for our sins and rose on the third day. You go your way too, but really, your clandestine efforts to get Christians over to your side is futile. We are saved already. The Holy Spirit guides us ... You should try asking Him for guidance sometime!

The “church” will never be perfect as long as imperfect men are controlling it. But there is another certainty that the apostle Paul confirmed.....Christ’s genuine disciples would “all speak in agreement with no divisions among them”.....(1 Corinthians 1:10) The whole of the first chapter of first Corinthians is very revealing about human conduct and God’s response to it. Disagreements were to be quickly settled. Has Christendom ironed out her disagreements? What a fragmented, horrible excuse for Christianity! But only those called out of her can see it. Those lost in that mess are dealing with a special kind of ‘blindness’....and it isn’t new. (Matthew 13:13-15)

Resorting to shooting the messenger only exaggerates the hollow ground upon which “the church” stands in all its unholy glory. When Jesus comes as judge, he will tell us who among mankind is the “wheat” and who are the “weeds” sown by the devil.....there will be no doubt then......so let’s just wait and see, shall we? I don’t think it’s going to be long by the look of things.....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Do you really think that God cares about what denomination we are? Is it what we call ourselves that makes what we say, “truth”?

No, God looks at our hearts. Before He washes our sins away, we are all dirty rags. Jesus is truth ... but the JW's have a different belief in the TRUTH, Who He is. We need also to know who we are, that we have a spirit AND a Spirit Who dwells in us.

I was a mainstream, died in the wool “Christian” who thought that what I was being taught was “gospel” truth....until I got to the age of reason, and began to question all the things did not make sense to me......then it all went downhill form there. I actually started to study the Bible and saw for myself where Christendom is nothing more than the “weeds” of Jesus parable....a poorly constructed counterfeit “Christianity” who can take what the Bible says and twist it all out of shape in order to justify their errors.

Ah, the age of reason. Where is that in scripture?
All of us had and still have questions. You went to some hacks in Brooklyn, N.Y for answers. They feed you weekly. Oh, they moved recently. I rely on the Holy Spirit teaching me truth. Scripture is spiritually discerned and you won't get the right answers or understanding unless you ask for HIM. He is not a force. That is the void in your life now. Your not sure of your salvation ... you were told you would have to wait until after the Millennial Kingdom, during which time _ in Paradise _ you must endure more testing to see if you are worthy. Sad. Christ said, believe in Him and you will have eternal life. We have it NOW. He fulfilled the requirements, nothing further for you to so except have faith. If course belief also means you will abide in Him, be obedient and follow Him.

Did it ever occur to you that Jesus’ preaching had a two fold purpose? One was to show the “lost ones” where to find the truth, and the other was to show up those who did not consider themselves “lost” at all, how mistaken they were in their apostasy.

And I suppose you think 1/3 of the population of the planet are apostates and only 8+ million really know the truth and how to live?
So you think Jesus meant to show us all through the JW org.? 899 out of 900 just won't make it. That doesn't sound like a plan that God intended - that is pretty weak. But of course they feed that scripture about "narrow is the gate ..." when you don't see fruit and growth.

We only have to read Jesus denunciation of the Pharisees to understand that those lost in their error would paint their opponents as some kind of blight on the world. How did the Jews respond to Jesus and his disciples? All of their persecution came from their own misguided people, whipped up by their wicked leaders. Jesus said it would continue. (John 15:18-21) Why? He said because ‘they did not know the one who sent him’. Christendom does not know the God of Jesus Christ. They worship a different god to the one who sent Jesus into the world....therefore, Christendom is nothing more than a mirror image of apostate Judaism.

He criticized and condemned the Jews who did not believe in Him.
All who do not believe in Jesus will be judged. But we believe, yet you are implying that all Christendom outside your camp are apostate and will be condemned.
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The road to life has “few”, not “many” travelers...they are on the other road “to destruction”. So be careful about your bragging there. The path you are following may not lead where you assume it might....and you may have lots of company. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)

Not bragging - actually no one can boast.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph.2:8, 9
Did catch that? "...have been saved ... not by works ..."?

The “church” will never be perfect as long as imperfect men are controlling it. But there is another certainty that the apostle Paul confirmed.....Christ’s genuine disciples would “all speak in agreement with no divisions among them”.....(1 Corinthians 1:10) The whole of the first chapter of first Corinthians is very revealing about human conduct and God’s response to it. Disagreements were to be quickly settled. Has Christendom ironed out her disagreements? What a fragmented, horrible excuse for Christianity! But only those called out of her can see it. Those lost in that mess are dealing with a special kind of ‘blindness’....and it isn’t new. (Matthew 13:13-15)

Men don't run the Church, Jesus does.
I agree that we all should be of one mind, and walk in the spirit. It is a battle between the spirit and the flesh throughout life. But there are faithful in unity, love and purpose.
The Body of Christ has done amazing things, Jesus' love, hope and peace has spread to the world.

Resorting to shooting the messenger only exaggerates the hollow ground upon which “the church” stands in all its unholy glory. When Jesus comes as judge, he will tell us who among mankind is the “wheat” and who are the “weeds” sown by the devil.....there will be no doubt then......so let’s just wait and see, shall we? I don’t think it’s going to be long by the look of things.....

I agree.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That just goes to show that the star was high in the sky to be visible all that way. I do not think the journey took as long as you say, and neither do I have a problem with there being a bright star. Just go with what the Bible says.
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Well that is your privilege.

 

[Isekaimaou328]

Gen. 1:14 tells us the sun, moon and stars are also used for signs. A constellation and a star (likely the planet Jupiter) were used by the Magi. According to a sign in the Heavens in Rev. 12:1,2 ( in which a this constellation appeared around Jesus Birth), Jesus was born on Sept. 11, 3 BC ... calculated to within a 81 minute window.
(Sunset @ 6:18PM and Moonset @ 7:39PM)
This would have been Tishri 1, The first day of the Feast of Trumpets;
The anniversary of the first day of Creation;
Also the Birthday of Noah.
This would mean Jesus was 33 1/2 years old if He was crucified in 31 AD.

It has always been a question when Jesus was really born. It could have been on a pagan holiday, to overshadow that holiday and erase it. But since the shepherds were tending to sheep that were grazing out in the fields, it probably didn't happen in winter. I guess they could have had a warm year. Sheep and cattle di sift through the snow to get at dead grass too, dont they? I don't know.
This study goes into detail about it.Artex Productions Miami Video Production Company

When Was Jesus Christ Born? The Bible Says September 11, 3BC-The Day of the Feast of Trumpets

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but the "star" in heaven was not a star but most likely the shechinah glory of God! Stars do not travel east and then west, then north and do not hover over a certain place as this astral phenomena did!

We will not know the exact date of Jesus birth by our current western calender until we see Him, but knowing the day o fHis birth is an irrelancy . Knowing that He died and rose on days is what matters.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but the "star" in heaven was not a star but most likely the shechinah glory of God!

You must have seen another bubble? I know it wasn't a star. I said it was likely the planet Jupiter. If you had only read the second sentence, you would have identified my bubble.

Knowing that He died and rose on days is what matters.

Well, that is the gospel. But if that was all that mattered, the Bible would be very short. I did say there was a reason why God did not specify the exact date. And I alluded to a reason but I don't know.
The Shekinah Glory is a common thought. The burning bush, the pillar of fire, the cloud or even and appearance such as a Christophany were very specific and in scripture accompanied by an explanation, or at least, an "angel of the Lord appeared". Why wouldn't scripture identify the Shekinah glory as God instead of calling it a star? The Spirit is often identified in scripture - never as a star. Angels are referred to as stars, so maybe an angel was their guide? But then there were angels amoung the shepherds in Bethlehem at the time - identified as angels, not stars, so then why wouldn't the Bible refer to this particular angel as such if it was one? I still think it was JUPITER.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Angels are also called stars. Could have been angel. But then angels have always been identified and announced, why would this time be different?
Numbers 24:17 is actually a reference to the morning star, Jesus.
If it was God the Father. The shekinah glory, why say it was a star.
Another scholar claims that Herod did not die in 4 BC, that there was only a partial eclipse recorded during that time that wasn't visible. This scholar sites a different date for a total eclipse on Jan. 10, 1 BC - which was more likely the eclipse event tied to Herod's death.

This all sounds reasonable to me. I've wondered a bit about Jesus being called "the morning star" because the book of Hebrews specifically addresses the notion that Jesus was an angel (to disprove the idea.) I'm no expert in astrology, but read at least one book on the topic.
The "morning star" is a common reference to Venus, which is also sometimes referred to as the evening star, and typically the brightest object and first to appear in the evening sky, last to be seen in the early morning (when its above the horizon.) In astrology it represents power and authority. Its position in a celestial house (the boundaries of a constellation) at the moment of birth also are associated with dominant attributes of that house. Eg: Venus appearing in Pisces at birth would have different significance than Venus appearing in Leo.
If we really knew the time and date of the Lord's birth, we could use His location in Bethlehem to "read His astrological destiny" to perhaps confirm whether the Magii were astrologers, but I don't think the thesis fits the gospel texts.
I like the Nova theory better for a sudden appearing of a brilliant star, and exploding a star isn't exactly difficult for the almighty.
A close conjunction between planetary bodies might give the appearance of a bright new star, but astrologers have to be familiar with all the planets visible to the naked eye in order to make their predictions, and would know when such a conjunction was taking place.

 

[michaelvpardo]

If you recall Joshua's long day, then why is it inconceivable that a special Bethlehem Star was created (or designated from among the millions) to move as a beacon? Those magi (wise men) from Persia or Arabia did not know the geography of Palestine, so how would they know how to travel from Iran to Jerusalem, and Jerusalem to Bethlehem?

JOSHUA'S LONG DAY: JOSHUA 10
12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. 14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.

Our relative position to the stars changes constantly with our orbit, so each day any given star rises over the horizon at a different time, so it is possible to follow a heading based upon a bright stars appearing at the same time each day (the heading would shift slightly), but I'm inclined to believe that the star was an angelic manifestation, even as I'm inclined to believe that modern UAPs are either of an angelic or demonic origin.
All things considered, I don't believe that knowing the exact date of the Lord's birth really matters, or we'd have that information, much as we have the Canon of scripture, but not all of the ancient texts mentioned in scripture.