Church Bashing

[marks]

OK, I can see you don't know me. Yes I watch and attend Catholic Mass. But I don't pray to mary the saints or angels. And I think that is the point of this thread. That we don't have to believe all of what a church proposes to join them in worship. You seem to think otherwise and condemn people that do. The practicing of condemning I find very judgmental. Warning is one thing, but that is not what you do, you condemn people. You are repeatedly attacking my character and the Catholic church, stop!

Yes, I think you've reached the heart here.

We are to build up and not tear down.

Malachi 1:2-4 KJV
2) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4) Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Tearing down is like God's hatred for Esau.

Much love!

 

[marks]

OK, I can see you don't know me. Yes I watch and attend Catholic Mass. But I don't pray to mary the saints or angels. And I think that is the point of this thread. That we don't have to believe all of what a church proposes to join them in worship. You seem to think otherwise and condemn people that do. The practicing of condemning I find very judgmental. Warning is one thing, but that is not what you do, you condemn people. You are repeatedly attacking my character and the Catholic church, stop!

Our unity is in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God . . . Jesus. Our salvation is in Jesus, faith in Jesus. If we can have unity in faith in Jesus, that is enough, and other matters will be addressed in time.

That comes first, and THEN we will be able to build each other in love.

Ephesians 4:13-16 KJV
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There IS a verse that speaks of eternal torment there, but note who it talks about:

Jesus prophesied the eternal torment of the unrighteous in the same temporal terms as the eternal life of the righteous. And that's just the way it is.

For me, this is knowing what is stated in the Bible, but to you, this makes me an idolator?

Much love!

 

[Truther]

Our unity is in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God . . . Jesus. Our salvation is in Jesus, faith in Jesus. If we can have unity in faith in Jesus, that is enough, and other matters will be addressed in time.

That comes first, and THEN we will be able to build each other in love.

Ephesians 4:13-16 KJV
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

Are you talking about the unity of the faith per Acts 2:38 and the 3000 at Pentecost?

 

[marks]

Sheesh, why the expectation that a church’s doctrine and praxis have to be perfect? Or rather, to match your own, which we know is perfect? These are institutions of Men. All I ask is that Christ be exalted, the scriptures be proclaimed, and the people love one another. If some of the praxis or doctrine seems foolish, just ignore it.

The Church of Lowered Expectations.

What do they say . . . eat the meat, spit out the bones?

I didn't agree with my pastor about everything he said . . . but I never equalled his love for others, and I'll tell you what I think is the more important, it's that love for others!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since I already gave you the Scriptures (and there are many more), you are contradicting Christ. There is nothing more to be said.

Unless you want to provide a "spirit" meaning, that you will hold to even though it disagree with "the letter". They do that sort of thing, you know. But my question, if you interpret the Bible that way, what makes you think you are correct? We have innumerable people who use the Bible that way, all saying different things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And that seems to be a major problem. You can present the truth 100 times, and the errorist will reject it 100 times. But the Bible says that we are to reject the heretic after the first two times. Which means that people should not go on and on and on trying to correct those who are in error. In fact it is detrimental to be doing that.

That's hard for me to do, but thank you for the reminder!!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus prophesied the eternal torment of the unrighteous in the same temporal terms as the eternal life of the righteous. And that's just the way it is.

For me, this is knowing what is stated in the Bible, but to you, this makes me an idolator?

Much love!

I just showed you two verses. You asserted your opinion without any verses. So who has spoken correctly?

And, very oddly, you hit like on my previous post where I said Eternal Torment is a nasty idol…but when I gave the verses to show it, you didn’t like that?

 

[Enoch111]

But my question, if you interpret the Bible that way, what makes you think you are correct?

There are certain fundamental Bible truths on which Christians have agreed all along. And that is because the Bible supports those teachings very clearly. But along comes someone who does not want to accept what is already established and comes up with some bizarre doctrine. Thus we have the cults.

 

[marks]

Interesting you should bring that up!
Dont answer a fool in his folly or you will be just like him.
Answer a fool in his folly or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, don't talk like the fool talks, that's foolish, but don't let it go unanswered.

My thoughts . . . and don't let yourself get pulled into foolish arguments. And don't let foolishness bind itself to you.

Much love!

 

[dev553344]

Our unity is in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God . . . Jesus. Our salvation is in Jesus, faith in Jesus. If we can have unity in faith in Jesus, that is enough, and other matters will be addressed in time.

That comes first, and THEN we will be able to build each other in love.

Ephesians 4:13-16 KJV
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Much love!

Yes that makes sense to me. As the same was done by the Apostles for the churches.

 

[marks]

We all read Scripture though the lenses of human Reason, our own Experiences, and the understanding of faithful men and women who came before us, also known as Tradition. That’s not necessarily a bad thing; it’s just is what it is. In that sense, all doctrine is of Men. Some may claim direct revelation from the Spirit, but how do we test the spirits?

You are very correct here, even though we claim to hold to the Written Word, to which all of us should agree, IMO, we all read through our own lens, and there is no certainty that we read it all the same way. Some parts are written fairly plainly, though. Lot's of John's writing is very plain.

He says that the way we can KNOW that we've passed from death into life if we love the brethren.

Do we love them, but not want to be with them? Do we love them, and want to be with them, but deny this obedience because we think they've got this part wrong?

I'm trusting Jesus to intercede for me. I'm trusting He is giving me new life. Do we need more than that for unity?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not trying to change the topic, but I followed the link to read scripture and found the ASV has removed words from scripture.

Example:
Mark 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come out by nothing, save by prayer.

It should read...
Mark 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

The difference is because of the source manuscripts. The first quote is from an Alexandrian Family Manuscript, the second from a Byzantine Family Manuscript. The Alexandrian manuscripts account for the vast majority of modern translations, the Byzantine manuscripts account for the vast majority of existing manuscripts.

The Alexandrian manuscripts are missing those words with appear in the Byzantine manuscripts.

Much love!

 

[marks]

NetBible used to have extensive translators' notes; I wish they still showed them. What typically happened when you see this is that older manuscripts than the Textus Receptus such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus have since been found that did not contain the "and fasting". The conclusion is that if the verse or words did not exist in 400AD, but do appear in later manuscripts, they were probably added by later scribes. Adding to the Bible is as bad as removing from it, so it's a tough call for the translators. And this is one of the reasons I'm suspicious of bibliolatry.

Another way to see this is to recognize that these few early manuscripts weren't being used, and maybe there was a reason for that. When you get into the history of scrolls and codexes, the fact that these were not in use is significant, to say the least.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And you judge the Hort-Wescott texts as corrupt how? And you judge the Textus Receptus as correct how? Because you assume the latter, the former must be true?

For myself, the question is answered by faith. The Majority Manuscript shows the Bible as available throughout the generations.

Psalms 119:89-90 KJV
89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
90) Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

The Critical Text is based on manuscripts lost to the sands of times for over a thousand years.

Much love!

 

[Bob Estey]

I think there is a time and place. But honestly as good as a pastor can be, if they are teaching something you need to do as blatant sin, that can lead people astray... These are my thoughts on it, but I completely understand what you are talking about. That would be hard.

My pastor would preach that homosexuals were simply "different," and that it was wrong of us to be critical of what they did.

 

[Bob Estey]

Didn’t really answer the question.

Well, that's my answer.

 

[marks]

Yes unfortunately I've noticed the same thing. The rules are here to allow us to engage in civil conversations and not be attacked because of our denomination. And that unfortunately isn't happening.

Meanwhile, love for the brethren is how we're supposed to know we're true!

Much love!

 

[Bob Estey]

I would have stood up, Disagreed, Said Why, listened for his response. IF the Pastors response was to Defend his position, I would have EXPRESSLY turned my Back to him, and then Walked Out.

Would have?

 

[Scott Downey]

The people of the last days are well described in scripture. One thing I notice a lot of is pride and they are unreasonable, unteachable, arrogant, despise authority, willful, mean spirited, contrariness, quick to show offense. You will find all that and lots more in church people too, not just out in the world. The message is to avoid such people, and their ideas, if you can. We are called to live peaceably with all people as far as we are able.

Romans 12:17-19
New King James Version
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.

18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.