Church Bashing

[Nancy]

You mean the part about, 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us? Or the parts that exhort us to avoid sin because our identity is as Children of God and Children of God aren't supposed to sin?

You mean the part about, 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us? Or the parts that exhort us to avoid sin because our identity is as Children of God and Children of God aren't supposed to sin?

" If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us?"

Or maybe these parts?
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

14 If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. 15 Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.

Gosh, it’s so harsh to me now when I read it. It never appeared as harsh to me before I stopped murdering in my heart…

Annnnd, "This is how they will know you are my followers, if you have love for one another"

What if there is one who claims to be a brother or sister but has shown the opposite and bears bad fruit? It is hard to consider them a brother or sister...are we to "love" these AS a true bro or sis in The Lord?

 

[Lambano]

Or maybe these parts?
Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

14 If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. 15 Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them.

Gosh, it’s so harsh to me now when I read it. It never appeared as harsh to me before I stopped murdering in my heart…

John seems to see things in black and white terms. It does seem harsh, doesn't it?

Some folks interpret these verses to mean Christians don't sin (and I've seen this multiple times on this board), and it drives me nuts. The whole theme of the letter from 1 John 2:1 to the very last verse is an exhortation to his flock to avoid sin. Here the rhetorical technique is to appeal to their shared identity as Children of God to exhort them to act righteously, to not sin, and to love their brothers and sisters. But people take it literally and condemn their brothers and sisters who fall.

I've been meaning to get this rant out for months. There. I feel better.

 

[Wrangler]

our hope is not in our sanctification but in him who sanctifies.....we have a saviour!

Milk. No one ever said our hope was anything else but our savior.

Meat. We have the burden to die daily for Christ. It means sanctification is the price we pay once we are saved, to abandon the old, sinful life. Jesus did not die so we could remain untransformed. What did our savior save us from? Not death!

Death is but the consequence, the effect. Jesus died to save us from our sins. This means sanctification, to be to set apart - apart from our sins. Not on our own but through Him. Not all who call Jesus Lord will be saved - but only those who obey the will of God. We are not saved by our work but once saved, we have work to do, which is our duty and honor to do.

 

[Lambano]

What if there is one who claims to be a brother or sister but has shown the opposite and bears bad fruit? It is hard to consider them a brother or sister...are we to "love" these AS a true bro or sis in The Lord?

Okay, that's a fair criticism.

I know some of my own failings, so I try to cut others some slack whenever possible. The "fruit" would have to be pretty egregious for me to disfellowship somebody.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Whew!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

" If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us?"


Annnnd, "This is how they will know you are my followers, if you have love for one another"

What if there is one who claims to be a brother or sister but has shown the opposite and bears bad fruit? It is hard to consider them a brother or sister...are we to "love" these AS a true bro or sis in The Lord?

I guess you really have to have a calling to work in the nursery, where everyone runs around biting, hitting and pooping all over themselves.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

John seems to see things in black and white terms. It does seem harsh, doesn't it?

Some folks interpret these verses to mean Christians don't sin (and I've seen this multiple times on this board), and it drives me nuts. The whole theme of the letter from 1 John 2:1 to the very last verse is an exhortation to his flock to avoid sin. Here rhetorical technique is to appeal to their shared identity as Children of God to exhort them to act righteously, to not sin, and to love their brothers and sisters. But people take it literally and condemn their brothers and sisters who fall.

I've been meaning to get this rant out for months. There. I feel better.

Yes, it seems harsh. It didn’t seem so harsh to read when I was trusting and hoping for true righteousness in my heart and mind. But to who more is given more is required. But yeah, even though John seems to walk in extreme love, he’s the one I would have been most frightened around. But to think now when I was striving so much and just hating myself for what was in my heart, I didn’t fear I was a child of the devil, I just kept trusting Him for what I could not change.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Some folks interpret these verses to mean Christians don't sin (and I've seen this multiple times on this board), and it drives me nuts.

This comes back to learning righteousness and learning the obedience of unwavering trust versus holiness. A righteous man stumbles and gets back up and starts running his race of trust again. But to hear a man walking in holiness like John, it’s quite stern…

 

[Nancy]

I guess you really have to have a calling to work in the nursery, where everyone runs around biting, hitting and pooping all over themselves.

Whaaaa? You think me in unforgiveness?? Yeah, I still struggle with the last person living here but have moved on. It's up to Him now...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’d rather have been around Paul with his “you are still carnal” than to have been around John with his “you are of the devil if you strive with murder.”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Whaaaa? You think me in unforgiveness?? Yeah, I still struggle with the last person living here but have moved on. It's up to Him now...

No! I didn’t mean that! It’s just takes a lot of patience to deal with arrogant two year olds bopping everyone over the head and screaming mine, mine, mine!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’d rather have been around Paul with his “you are still carnal” than to have been around John with his “you are of the devil if you strive with murder.”

But then again, if we had a Paul and a John, I think we would not struggle so long to get to unwavering trust because they would call us on it much sooner like, why is your trust so little? Why do you worry so much when we told you our Lord said not to! Your worrying is the OPPOSITE of trust so stop claiming you trust Him when you aren’t trusting Him!

 

[Nancy]

No! I didn’t mean that! It’s just takes a lot of patience to deal with arrogant two year olds bopping everyone over the head and screaming mine, mine, mine!

Ohhh..kk Just exposed another issue of mine

 

[Nancy]

But then again, if we had a Paul and a John, I think we would not struggle so long to get to unwavering trust because they would call us on it much sooner like, why is your trust so little? Why do you worry so much when we told you our Lord said not to! Your worrying is the OPPOSITE of trust so stop claiming you trust Him when you aren’t trusting Him!

Ha! You are so right, and back then, they truly took him seriously, you don't see much of that today. The church is unrecognizable from what it was back then. Weak and watered down.

 

[Brakelite]

Ive even thanked God for for them since He used them to bring invaluable good to me! They meant it for my bad but He meant it for my great good!
You almost can’t believe you just thanked God for them like…did that just come out of my mouth and heart???

KJV 2 Corinthians 13:8
8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

 

[BarneyFife]

Barny, the referenced post advises the reader to "Rest in Him", trust, etc. Could we flesh out a bit how a young man undergoing strong temptation can apply "Rest in Him"? For example, does it mean, you can give in to the temptation and trust in God's forgiveness? True, but depending on the temptation, somebody could get hurt. Does it mean trust God to give you the strength to resist the temptation? That's certainly what he's asking us to pray for, but I don't know if that's tells him anything he doesn't already know.

Other people explain it better than I but, in short, the necessity of surrendering the will to God has to be realized. It has to be impressed upon the mind (heart) by reading and meditating on the promises of God. All heaven has been emptied to provide for the spiritual victory of the poor sinner. The mind has to be saturated by these kinds of sentiments. There is no magic wand. The Bible says we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Many sins will be instantly vanquished by the petitioner. Others constitute the thorn in the flesh spoken of by Paul. With regard to them, Christ says "My grace is sufficient for thee." But we are not left to battle the adversary of souls all by ourselves. The soldier of God has to put on the whole armor of God, which is supplied entirely by God Himself. The battles for victory over sin will sometimes be hard and we will often not see a clear path to that victory. Hebrews, chapter eleven lists overcomers who had to step out by faith, without proof (or sometimes even much evidence at all) that they would prosper. We must understand and confess to God that we don't even want victory as much as we should. The Bible says that we must live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Sometimes we can't understand this because our heart seems to beat all by itself. If we realized how dependent we are on God for the simplest of provisions, we would not hesitate to trust Him for supernatural help. Angels love to minister to souls for whom their beloved Commander died. We should cherish every longing of the heart after God. The lowly Savior promises that the water He gives us will become in us a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. The magnitude of that promise alone could captivate our affections for hours and hours. By beholding Christ we become changed. There is no other way. There are many lists and methods and means, and many of them are very helpful, but the simple faith like a mustard seed, if cultivated, which is measured to every man can, and must, grow as into a mountain. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If we but ever so slightly believed and understood this we could move spiritual mountains. Here is where I will sound like a broken record to many here, but there is very literal, inexhaustible, creative power in the Word of God. This simply cannot be overstated (I'm getting goosebumps as I write this).

As an aside regarding the creative power of God's Word: Many believe that when the Bible says that God cannot lie, this means that there is some lack of substance in Him which renders Him unable to speak words that would seem to perpetrate a falsehood. But this is as far from the truth as can be. The reason God cannot lie is that, when He speaks, that thing begins to come to pass instantly. He is by vocation The Creator. Matter is altered and brought into existence by His utterance. Picture this: Mary and Joseph fall on hard times. The bills are no longer being paid on time. One day, the moneychanger knocks at the door. Mary is busy preparing dinner. Joseph is at work in his woodshop attached to, and actually part of, the house. The youthful Jesus is studying His lessons. Mary says to Him, "Son, answer the door, please. If it is the bill collector, tell Him your father is not here. Of course, the Boy will not comply, but he could. And if He did: What would happen? The answer is simple. Joseph would, at the very instant Christ spoke the word, cease to be present in the house. He would simply vanish. Poof. If this seems sensational, it really shouldn't. Not if we understand the immensely true power of God's Word.

I could go on all night about How much God has done to provide us with everything imaginable to equip us to do His will, but I will cut this short and end with Scripture and a couple of resources to help with fighting temptation and cultivating faith.

Make sure your friend knows that many, many people are praying for him, and that Christ Himself even prayed for Him (John 17:20).

Ephesians 3:20 KJV: Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Ephesians 3:21 KJV: Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Three Simple Steps For Overcoming Any Sin

Lesson 02 – Lessons on Faith (Instruction begins in lesson #2)

 

[BarneyFife]

For example, does it mean, you can give in to the temptation and trust in God's forgiveness?

This would be presumption.

 

[Lambano]

This would be presumption.

I should hope we can trust in God's forgiveness and Christ's blood.

 

[Brakelite]

It’s not lonely. It’s just very weird and different! But I’m certainly not wishing that contentious woman to come back and harass and rule over me again. Good riddance. I do not miss her. I hated her. I still am amazed that I hated my own life and He helped me to kill her.

Your self awareness is a wonderful gift. I think having that self awareness is the first step in overcoming. And sometimes we need to hear others telling us who we are.
I remember when I first felt convicted to give up smoking. I tried several times, sometimes for months, but would return. It wasn't until I admitted that I actually still liked to smoke, enjoyed it, that I was willing to ask God to change my attitude toward the habit first.
We are sinners. Fallen helpless moral viruses that can do nothing of ourselves to overcome. When we finally realize that without Him we can do nothing, then we can begin to live.

 

[BarneyFife]

I should hope we can trust in God's forgiveness and Christ's blood.

That stuff wears away at the still small voice.