Coat or Garment of Many Colors

[amadeus]

Posting here so I get an alert.

very interesting thread ...:)

Good to see you here Helen! You really are missed around here. I hope you are feeling better. Last we time we talked you were suffering greatly from a UTI.

 

[amadeus]

I am honestly a bit lost. But I'll try again tomorrow.

Several sometime lengthy comments, but only consider the two many colored garments. One was worn by Joseph who was sent in slavery to Egypt. The other was worn by Tamar, daughter of David the King, who was raped by her brother, Amnon. Both of them were abused by their own siblings!

 

[Helen]

Good to see you here Helen! You really are missed around here. I hope you are feeling better. Last we time we talked you were suffering greatly from a UTI.

thanks John , I’m not out of the wood yet and more healing is needed badly .


Thanks for continued prayer x

 

[amadeus]

thanks John , I’m not out of the wood yet and more healing is needed badly .


Thanks for continued prayer x

Even now Helen!

 

[amigo de christo]

thanks John , I’m not out of the wood yet and more healing is needed badly .


Thanks for continued prayer x

You are loved dear sister and will be prayed for as well .

 

[Philip James]

Just sharing some of my thoughts:

Why in the case of Joseph and Tamar did their brothers act so?

Envy of the favour of the father?

In one case seeking to remove it, the other to posess it?

Do we envy our brothers or sisters station? Their talents? Our Father's favour upon them?

When we do such do we not tear the very fabric of our community?

Now to Jesus garment.. Who gave it to Him? The women who so faithfully followed Him throughout His passion..

And this to me speaks to the role of women in the Church.. It is their faith, their love, their hope and (this connects with Tamar) their silent suffering, united with the suffering of our Lord, that is the very fabric that keeps the coat from being torn..

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Cooper]

God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. By a series of events that cannot be coincidence, Joseph found himself where God wanted him, taken there unwittingly by the Midianites.
.

 

[amadeus]

Just sharing some of my thoughts:

Why in the case of Joseph and Tamar did their brothers act so?

Envy of the favour of the father?

In one case seeking to remove it, the other to posess it?

Do we envy our brothers or sisters station? Their talents? Our Father's favour upon them?

When we do such do we not tear the very fabric of our community?

Now to Jesus garment.. Who gave it to Him? The women who so faithfully followed Him throughout His passion..

And this to me speaks to the role of women in the Church.. It is their faith, their love, their hope and (this connects with Tamar) their silent suffering, united with the suffering of our Lord, that is the very fabric that keeps the coat from being torn..

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Yes indeed, we have two situations, very similar and yet very different. The brothers looking to their own interests abused both, but we see the male victim elevated from slavery to the second ruler of Egypt, but Egypt for all of that is the very depths of sin and death. Joseph was used to save them for Hope, but they remained in death for 430 years. Life was still needed! That was the Hope to come.

For the female victim we see no elevation in her situation while she remained here. She took silently that which was given to her, but even the Hope for her, a woman [the True Church] after all with her Hope being scarcely a glimmer by faith, something truly for her unseen.

 

[amadeus]

@Amazed@grace @Hidden In Him @Mayflower @Philip James @amigo de christo @Cooper @VictoryinJesus @Waiting on him @Helen

Again the flamboyant many coloured clothes of men after their spoils putting on a front supposedly perhaps for God, but actually very much for self and what self may gain in personal spoils:

“Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?” Judges 5:30

Were the clothes of Sisera the enemy of Israel truly equal the the clothes of both Joseph and Tamar? They were given an apparent grandeur as seen by their respective physical fathers, but it was a fleeting flamboyance no better ultimately than that of Sisera. Joseph's were spoiled by his brothers. Tamara recognizing the foolish error of the display spoiled hers herself.
**************************************************
Covering our own high places with colorful garments, garments of many colours but as a harlot in order to please self and/or to receive mammon.

“But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.” Ezek 16:15-16

There really is a better way. The brothers of both Joseph and Tamar were unable to see it. What did Joseph and Tamar see? What do we see?

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov. 29:18

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor. 13:12

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes indeed, we have two situations, very similar and yet very different. The brothers looking to their own interests abused both, but we see the male victim elevated from slavery to the second ruler of Egypt, but Egypt for all of that is the very depths of sin and death. Joseph was used to save them for Hope, but they remained in death for 430 years. Life was still needed! That was the Hope to come.

a few thoughts here. Love the depth there in Joseph going into the pit, then sold into slavery and then prison. And how in the time of famine there was a store and his brothers came and those words “what you meant for evil God meant it for good”. Concerning the brothers though...I’m not good at the tribes and how they (the brothers) connect but I have to question did the brothers not have to take the same walk as their brother ...the tribes also going into the pit, sold into slavery, and then into prison? Awaiting “tell John the captives are set free”?

 

[Philip James]

and his brothers came and those words “what you meant for evil God meant it for good

All things work for the good of those who love God!

Peace be with you!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

All things work for the good of those who love God!

Peace be with you!

what I love best in that verse is all things work “together” for the good...makes me think of where Paul said “I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”

 

[Robert Gwin]

Coat of many colors Gen 37:3 and II Sam 13:18

"Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours" Gen 37:3

"And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled..." II Sam 13:18

Coat [in Gen 37:3 & 23]
Garment [in II Sam 13:18]


tntk K@thoneth (keth-o'-neth); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 3801

1. 
   
   
   • tunic, under-garment
     1. a long shirt-like garment usually of linen

KJV Word Usage and Count
coat 23
garment 5
robe 1
*****************************************
Colours [In Gen 3:3 and 3:37 as well as in & II Sam 13:18]

op Pac (pas); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 6446

1. 
   
   
   • flat (of the hand or foot), palm, sole
     1. of the tunic reaching to palms and soles (fig.)

KJV Word Usage and Count
colours 5
***********************************************
The following is a slighted edited version it from my own forum post on 5-22-2019 [possibly not this forum?]:

I took note of the two different scriptural coats/garments of many colors a number of years ago and set it aside for a study which to date I have not done although I have asked questions of other people about it previously. Your [unidentified person on an unrecalled forum... maybe this one?] mention of it here brought it back to mind now. What do they mean to you? You say you've 'done both'.

Joseph's coat was a special gift from his father [Jacob/Israel], which stirred up, to put it mildly, the animosity of his brothers, who were also sons of the same father but not of the same mother. It is certainly an early example of sibling rivalry and/or jealousy.

Tamar, on the other hand, wore her garment apparently because she was a daughter of the King, King David of Israel.

Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers.

Tamar was raped by her brother and avenged by another brother.

Each of the two had a special covering garment which became defiled. They both garments were of diverse colors. Is this connected in any way to the rainbow God displayed after the great flood in the time of Noah? Did not God say, "never again" would there be such a destruction by flood?

Joseph's coat was purposely dipped in the blood of a dead animal his brothers killed for that purpose.

Tamar tore her own garment purposely to make manifest to any observer her humbled state.

That's it! Hopefully someone is able to make a definitive connection or has even done a study on it previously. What message, if any, does God have for us in the two events and the two many colored garments?

Both were overpowered by one or more siblings, Joseph by his jealous brothers and Tamar by her lustful brother. In both cases the feelings of the victim were essentially or completely ignored. The one was sold into slavery and the other painfully used and disgraced before men... [and God?]

There is nothing to indicate how Joseph may have resisted or argued against his brothers action against him. They removed his coat of many colors, tore it purposely and stained it with animal blood to make their father believe some animal had killed him.

In the case of Tamar, when she realized her brother, Amon's purpose, she told him to ask King David to give her to him for surely the King would not refuse him. He ignored her words and forced himself on her. Afterward when he had her forcibly ejected from the house, she again spoke telling him that this rejection of her was worse than the rape. She tore the many colored garment herself and put ashes on her head and cried.

The response of the two fathers, Jacob and David?

"And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days." Gen 37:34

What we know of Jacob's reaction to the truth is seen after his death through the words of the guilty brothers which were certainly at least in part very self-serving:

"And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Gen 50:15-20

Here is David's reaction when he heard of the rape of his daughter by his son.

"But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth." II Sam 13:21

No further words or actions from David with regard to his daughter's rape. Another son, Absalom, avenged the rape by killing Amnon, but David seemingly was more concerned with the death of Absalom than he had been by the rape of his daughter.

Several similarities, but some definite differences as well. Thoughts? Understanding? Helps?

Although it made a great song that can bring tears to your eyes when you hear it, you are very well correct, there was a lot of love in that gift. That coat played in very prominently in the moving forward of the first prophecy in the Bible, as well as the covenant with Abraham also given to Jacob.

 

[amadeus]

a few thoughts here. Love the depth there in Joseph going into the pit, then sold into slavery and then prison. And how in the time of famine there was a store and his brothers came and those words “what you meant for evil God meant it for good”. Concerning the brothers though...I’m not good at the tribes and how they (the brothers) connect but I have to question did the brothers not have to take the same walk as their brother ...the tribes also going into the pit, sold into slavery, and then into prison? Awaiting “tell John the captives are set free”?

The salvation was also to be seen by the brothers, but how similar are those brothers to many so-called brothers we know or have known today in assemblies or not, on forums or not, who greet the newbies into their assemblies even as Joseph was greeted. He may have been a hard to respect hard to get along with person, but he was the youngest at the time and needed understanding and help. God gave Joseph that help, but the brothers had been given that job and failed in it. Does that sound like any churches you know about? It certainly does to me.

In spite of their flagrant errors and abuses of him, Joseph did his part effectively forgiving their sins against him and preserving their natural lives in Egypt. Of all the older brothers, the only one to whom I might give a pass would be Judah who really did turn around from instigator in the enslavement of Joseph to stand-in for his very youngest brother, Benjamin. We see for ourselves where all the other older brothers were at the end of Jacob's life was generally not so good. In Jacob's prophecies about them in chapters 48 and 49 of Genesis we get an inkling of where the tribes are heading. The place where we see many [most] of them when Jesus comes to Jerusalem hundreds of years later we read about in the four gospels.

 

[amadeus]

what I love best in that verse is all things work “together” for the good...makes me think of where Paul said “I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.”

Yes, we open the door to our hearts and then we do our little bit that alone would not suffice to accomplish God's ultimate purpose for us. Then because we give it what we do have and keep on giving it, God fills in the gaps. God takes up the slack. God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. Without our part being done, He will not!

Give God the glory!

 

[Ziggy]

The first thing that came to mind was..

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Joseph was the youngest and Tamar was a woman.
They were least.

Do the many colors represent the ...

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

As if the throne is cloaked with a rainbow or a coat of many colors.

Both coat and garment were torn.

Gen 37:33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces.

Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Gen 37:23 And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stript Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;

You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

Tamar rent her garment out of shame and humiliation.
Vengence is mine saith the Lord
And Amnon was destroyed by Absolom.

2Sa 13:20 And Absalom her brother said unto her, Hath Amnon thy brother been with thee? but hold now thy peace, my sister: he is thy brother; regard not this thing. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.

Ecc 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.

I tend to ramble..
Hugs

 

[Waiting on him]

The first thing that came to mind was..

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Joseph was the youngest and Tamar was a woman.
They were least.

Do the many colors represent the ...

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

As if the throne is cloaked with a rainbow or a coat of many colors.

Both coat and garment were torn.

Gen 37:33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces.

Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Gen 37:23 And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stript Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;

You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

Tamar rent her garment out of shame and humiliation.
Vengence is mine saith the Lord
And Amnon was destroyed by Absolom.

2Sa 13:20 And Absalom her brother said unto her, Hath Amnon thy brother been with thee? but hold now thy peace, my sister: he is thy brother; regard not this thing. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.

Ecc 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.

I tend to ramble..
Hugs

Also should consider Joshua in the study. Him being disrobed, to receive a new covering, which can only imply Christ.

 

[Waiting on him]

My wife had share this with me about half a year ago.


Zechariah 3:2-4 KJV
[2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? [3] Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. [4] And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Again the flamboyant many coloured clothes of men after their spoils putting on a front supposedly perhaps for God, but actually very much for self and what self may gain in personal spoils:

Putting on a front perhaps for God...but actually very much for self and what self may gain...Will this go unseen? The opposite in my opinion of putting on a front which God can see right through 2 Corinthians 7:12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear (be made manifest)unto you.

“Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?” Judges 5:30

Proverbs 16:19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Were the clothes of Sisera the enemy of Israel truly equal the the clothes of both Joseph and Tamar? They were given an apparent grandeur as seen by their respective physical fathers, but it was a fleeting flamboyance no better ultimately than that of Sisera. Joseph's were spoiled by his brothers. Tamara recognizing the foolish error of the display spoiled hers herself.

Yes, that stood out in your post about Tamar tore her garment to reveal humiliating. (Can’t remember exactly there) but it makes me think Galatians 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

 

[amadeus]

The first thing that came to mind was..

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Joseph was the youngest and Tamar was a woman.
They were least.

Yes, this is also what I have understood. They both lived cultures dominated by men and where the youngest men had little authority. They were examples for us today, but us to make a proper connection to ourselves and our situations an understanding of where each of them was according to the people around them is important.

Do the many colors represent the ...

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

As if the throne is cloaked with a rainbow or a coat of many colors.

The rainbow around the throne in the verses you cited should be according to God's order. What we see described in the Tabernacle in the wilderness or in the temple built by Solomon would also reflects God's order and if understood correctly might help us understand that order for us.

Rainbow arrangements or clothes prescribed by men, even Kings, may well be completely out of God's order. Because of the situation in our two cases [Joseph and Tamar] the people and certainly the family members should have respected those arrangements, but not to the point where it caused them to disobey God. It is like Jesus answer to a question here:

"... Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matt 22:21

Caesar's way like Jacob's or David's may not be the best ways to operate, but so long as they do not interfere with God's Way, should they be ignore by those subject to Jacob and David?

Both coat and garment were torn.

Gen 37:33 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces.

Jhn 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
Jhn 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Gen 37:23 And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stript Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;

You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

Tamar rent her garment out of shame and humiliation.
Vengence is mine saith the Lord
And Amnon was destroyed by Absolom.

2Sa 13:20 And Absalom her brother said unto her, Hath Amnon thy brother been with thee? but hold now thy peace, my sister: he is thy brother; regard not this thing. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.

Ecc 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.

I tend to ramble..
Hugs

Such rambling may lead us to one more piece needed to fill in the puzzle gaps to make the whole picture clearer.