Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[Randy Kluth]

What Barney is stating is Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA) doctrine. He probably should have given full disclosure about the origin of his statements. But there you have it.

Thanks I thought so. I share SDA interest in Bible Prophecy. I don't share their interest in legal requirements that belong exclusively under the Old Covenant.

Usually, the confusion results with the understanding that living in God's image is universal and timeless--it is both OT and NT. This often conveys to some the notion that the 10 Commandments are equally valid in the NT. But the 10 Commandments are *attached* to the Old Covenant, and as such, only timeless commandments are retained in the NT era. Sabbath Law has to be scrubbed, because it is not timeless and universal. It applied only to Israel in the OT era. I feel confident you agree, since you're letting me know about Barney?

 

[Nancy]

You should take a note of this one.

If I have not Love I become like a noisy cymbal.

Amen MJ. FRUITS!!!

 

[Nancy]

Im glad you can see it... please take notice..

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You and I both know the Adventist church has never produced its own translation of the Bible. And before you start ranting about The Clear Word, let me remind you that it's a devotional book and has never been considered or quoted as Scripture.

SDA supported and participated in ecumenical Translation Committees and efforts et al, and does so at this moment and you know it. But that's a minor. SDA 100% approve whichever and every and all translations produced by whomsoever and you know it : ESPECIALLY versions or 'translations' or whatever of Colossians 2, and you know it; EXCEPT mine which has been brought to your, SDA, attention and has been in your SDA possession for DECADES. But you, BF, will probably not know about that, because you have a corrupt, Jesuit, leadership that fear me like they fear the daylight on matters of their bizarre doctrines of darkness. THE ONLY ANSWER SDA HAVE HAD FOR ME HAS BEEN TO PRETEND THEY DON'T KNOW ME OR OF ME.

 

[BarneyFife]

As near literal as you can get :-
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Dead link. Requires credentials.

 

[BarneyFife]

SDA supported and participated in ecumenical Translation Committees and efforts et al, and does so at this moment and you know it. But that's a minor. SDA 100% approve whichever and every and all translations produced by whomsoever and you know it : ESPECIALLY versions or 'translations' or whatever of Colossians 2, and you know it; EXCEPT mine which has been brought to your, SDA, attention and has been in your SDA possession for DECADES. But you, BF, will probably not know about that, because you have a corrupt, Jesuit, leadership that fear me like they fear the daylight on matters of their bizarre doctrines of darkness. THE ONLY ANSWER SDA HAVE HAD FOR ME HAS BEEN TO PRETEND THEY DON'T KNOW ME OR OF ME.

I've been an Adventist for 30 years and I can honestly say I've never heard of you (we've been over this). I had to look you up and I didn't find much.

I don't know why you're making such a fuss. I don't think this thread is promoting any of those "bizarre doctrines of darkness" (whatever that means) you're talking about. I am glad to learn of things you insist I know (that I've never heard of). I think you could use some anger management classes.

 

[BarneyFife]

I was being semantical because it's fun as well as important. Words matter. Saying "Prove it" is fun, too.

1st you admit that the 10 Commandments are part of the overall Law

The 10 commandments have to be part of the overall law (whatever that means), because they are law.

If the 10 Commandments are a subset of the Law, and they are, then the command to "observe the Sabbath" is part of the Old Covenant, and not a requirement either for Gentiles, who never were under the Law, or for Jews in the NT era.

Here's where I run into some difficulty with your claims. You seem to be saying that the ten commandments are not distinct from the laws that prefigured Christ and have now been done away. I disagree, and 50 years ago every other Christian did as well. The notion that the Sabbath is yet again something that has been discarded from the whole is not supported by Scripture, either. 50 years ago, Christians simply thought that Sunday was the Christian Sabbath. You may think it is pointless to refer to a point in time such as 50 years ago, but I would have to ask, have we become so enlightened in the last 50 years that we see now the mistake that Christians were making for the first 1900+ years of the Christian era? I don't think so.

After all, the 10 Commandments were even placed within the ark of the covenant, and were referred to as part of the same covenant. How on earth can they *not* be a subset of the Covenant of the Law of Moses?

You can call them whatever you want, but they outline the moral code for human beings--not Israelites--and, as I've said countless times, putting a disposable, ritual law in the middle of the moral code for humans is a dirty trick that I just can't believe a God of love would do.

But the 10 Commandments are *attached* to the Old Covenant, and as such, only timeless commandments are retained in the NT era. Sabbath Law has to be scrubbed, because it is not timeless and universal. It applied only to Israel in the OT era.

Thank you, again, for your opinion that the Sabbath is not timeless and universal. Problem is, it just ain't so, and most of your objections/questions seem to indicate that you didn't bother to read the evidence I provide in the first few posts of the thread.

If you are interested in Seventh-day Adventist eschatology, you might enjoy a new thread I've just started called:

01. The Millennial Man

 

[mjrhealth]

If you are interested in Seventh-day Adventist eschatology, you might enjoy a new thread I've just started called:

So it is not the truth your want its SDA doctrine, why not the JW doctirnes they are christian too are they not.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Dead link. Requires credentials.

It died sudden death after ... never mind. Try this, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 4, 2. Col.pdf

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

From the above book, page 470,
'Even though righteously, ‘spiritually’, and acceptable to God dedicated and celebrated (“kept”), the ‘sabbatismos’ is NOT the ‘anapausis’. The ‘anapausis’ always will remain Christ, and the ‘sabbatismos’ always will remain the Day of the Sabbath kept.'

Today after so many years I would rather say, 'the ‘sabbatismos’ will always be the Day of the Sabbath REMAINING IN THE PROVIDENCES OF GOD FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD'S EARTHLY EXISTENCE TO GO ON WITH.'

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I've been an Adventist for 30 years and I can honestly say I've never heard of you (we've been over this). I had to look you up and I didn't find much.
I don't know why you're making such a fuss. I don't think this thread is promoting any of those "bizarre doctrines of darkness" (whatever that means) you're talking about. I am glad to learn of things you insist I know (that I've never heard of). I think you could use some anger management classes.

You don't know why I'm making such a fuss, but you have never heard of me and looked me up and didn't find much... yet... SDA cliché's.

Let me tell you the plain truth, You NEVER looked me up and NEVER found anything about me... yet... because you never would believe or consider or accept anything from me .. because, I'm telling you in your face, you already have been beguiled with enticing words and rumours about me. And you have been too casual, too callous, to withstand the ongoing resistance and rejection of what I have written for the past half a century at least.

To sum up - especially for you this day, what I have been studying and writing throughout my life up to this moment, is, The Heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in
the last chapters of the four Gospels, in
textual sequence put together in
chronological and logical, historical order,
word for word, verse by verse, context to context, using
the King James Version interlinear with the Greek,
and every shadow of doubt about Christ's perfect fulfilment of
the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness" is dispelled
sola Scriptura as
per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith,
I believe in Christ, who
was crucified, who died and was buried, and who
“ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”
which was "the weekly Sabbath" the Lord's Day the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD.

Nothing else. For which the SDA par excellence hate and despise me. So be it for the sake of Jesus Christ and the glory of his Name.

 

[BarneyFife]

You don't know why I'm making such a fuss, but you have never heard of me and looked me up and didn't find much... yet... SDA cliché's.

Let me tell you the plain truth, You NEVER looked me up and NEVER found anything about me... yet... because you never would believe or consider or accept anything from me .. because, I'm telling you in your face, you already have been beguiled with enticing words and rumours about me. And you have been too casual, too callous, to withstand the ongoing resistance and rejection of what I have written for the past half a century at least.

To sum up - especially for you this day, what I have been studying and writing throughout my life up to this moment, is, The Heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in
the last chapters of the four Gospels, in
textual sequence put together in
chronological and logical, historical order,
word for word, verse by verse, context to context, using
the King James Version interlinear with the Greek,
and every shadow of doubt about Christ's perfect fulfilment of
the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness" is dispelled
sola Scriptura as
per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith,
I believe in Christ, who
was crucified, who died and was buried, and who
“ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”
which was "the weekly Sabbath" the Lord's Day the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD.

Nothing else. For which the SDA par excellence hate and despise me. So be it for the sake of Jesus Christ and the glory of his Name.

Okay, so you say I'm lying and then a lot of other stuff about "days." Good for you. Keep it up, I guess.

 

[mjrhealth]

ritual law in the middle of the moral code for humans is a dirty trick that I just can't believe a God of love would do.

Ye He didnt did he ?? If you love one another as I love you, by this you will be known as my disciples....

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Okay, so you say I'm lying and then a lot of other stuff about "days." Good for you. Keep it up, I guess.

You say it not I. Again you prove that nothing I do say matters ... you are a SDA, so you are ever right and your opponent always and without saying, ever wrong ... and mean -- YOU WISH!

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

Sabbath rest (4520) sabbatismos - Sermon Index

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is a strange belief on the part of many that the great God-written law of the Ten Commandments was actually a part of the ceremonial law of Moses which contained scores of specific regulations. They do not see the decalogue as being distinct and totally unique because of its divine authorship. Neither do they see the clear limitation which the Bible sets for this moral code by calling it the TEN Commandments.

It seems quite obvious that one would effectively do away with the “Ten Commandments” by mingling them with ninety or a hundred others and calling them “ordinances” instead of commandments. Such a radical effort has been made to dilute the force of the only words of the Bible which God wrote with His own hand. Furthermore, the claim has been advanced that since the Ten Commandments were a part of the mosaic law of ordinances which ended at the cross, we are no more obligated to obey the decalogue than we are to offer lambs in sacrifice.

Is there proof positive in the Scriptures that there was no such blending of the ceremonial and moral law into one? Can it be shown that the Ten Commandments were of a permanent, perpetual nature while the ceremonial law of statutes and ordinances came to an end when Jesus died? Indeed there is abundance of evidence to answer these questions with a resounding yes!

God made known this distinction to His servant Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain. “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8). Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Any child can discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result.

Imagine there are two countries. Let's call them "Tree" and "Rock". As we all know, each country has the right of sovereignty, dictating the laws and rules that best protect the welfare and happiness of the citizens who live there. We might also imagine that each of these countries will have similar laws to each other, while they will also have laws that are unique to each country.

Now suppose a citizen of Tree visits the country of Rock on vacation. What does the citizen of Tree expect from the country of Rock with regard to the laws of Rock? Wouldn't the visitor expect the country of Rock to enforce it's laws fairly and equally? The law for visitors is the same law for natives? And wouldn't the visitor be expected to obey all the laws of Rock?

On the other hand, if a citizen of Tree never left home, would we expect a homebound citizen of Tree to obey the laws of Rock?

Why then would we expect someone living outside of Israel to obey the laws of Israel? Why do You say that those living outside the country of Israel are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments?

Think about it.
What is the difference between a "law" and a moral imperative?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

Amazing that MMD finds it amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when whether it is never used anywhere else in the Bible or not, every scholar or authority MMD uses for proof of his fallacious opinion, ironically says just what MMD's <Sabbatarians would suggest> --- right the contrary of what MMD would wish them say!

MMD even refers to the cognitive <<sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30>> to illustrate HOW IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT IT MEANS!

Not amazing, incredible! How clairvoyant can one be to see the un-see-able in a word?

 

[mailmandan]

Amazing that MMD finds it amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when whether it is never used anywhere else in the Bible or not, every scholar or authority MMD uses for proof of his fallacious opinion, ironically says just what MMD's <Sabbatarians would suggest> --- right the contrary of what MMD would wish them say!

MMD even refers to the cognitive <<sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30>> to illustrate HOW IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT IT MEANS!

Not amazing, incredible! How clairvoyant can one be?

I didn't expect you to understand or accept the truth.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You don't know why I'm making such a fuss, but you have never heard of me and looked me up and didn't find much... yet... SDA cliché's.

Let me tell you the plain truth, You NEVER looked me up and NEVER found anything about me... yet... because you never would believe or consider or accept anything from me .. because, I'm telling you in your face, you already have been beguiled with enticing words and rumours about me. And you have been too casual, too callous, to withstand the ongoing resistance and rejection of what I have written for the past half a century at least.

To sum up - especially for you this day, what I have been studying and writing throughout my life up to this moment, is, The Heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in
the last chapters of the four Gospels, in
textual sequence put together in
chronological and logical, historical order,
word for word, verse by verse, context to context, using
the King James Version interlinear with the Greek,
and every shadow of doubt about Christ's perfect fulfillment of
the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness" is dispelled
sola Scriptura as
per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith,
I believe in Christ, who
was crucified, who died and was buried, and who
“ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”
which was "the weekly Sabbath" the Lord's Day the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD.

Nothing else. For which the SDA par excellence hate and despise me. So be it for the sake of Jesus Christ and the glory of his Name.

I'd work in Colossians 2:9-15. If you don't add the Circumcision of your Heart to your Faith, the Faith of Abraham that saves, the beliefs you listed above are worthless. Not trying to be rude or hurt you, but just telling you of the Core of the Gospel as well as the Core of the entire Bible.

Please start being kind and gentle to your "brothers and sisters," for this is proof that Christ has Circumcised the Sinful Nature from your heart. With the Curse of Adam and Eve lifted from your heart, you would never berate, belittle or throw stones at any of us. Instead, you would love us. Please be kind to all people . . . both here and everywhere you go.