Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[GerhardEbersoehn]

But this kind of theology is poor, even if it means well. We do not observe Sunday Worship out of obedience to the 10 Commandments. Rather, Sunday Worship was started as a tradition, to set a pattern for regular Christian gatherings for fellowship. Since the Early Church began in Israel, the Sabbath had already been established as a Jewish time for gathering. And so, the Christians fashioned their own gathering day after the day of Christ's resurrection.

That is NOT true and you, know it. That is UNSCRIPTURAL, UN-NT, and you, know it. That is UN-CHRISTIAN, and you, know it. God knows the thoughts of man - that, is a true quote from God's Word.

 

[BarneyFife]

According to Genesis, God endowed humanity with a sense of right and wrong. Satan told Eve that when she ate from the Tree, she would be wise and know good from evil. The lie was that she already knew good from evil.

Slightly imaginative nonsense

 

[BarneyFife]

But this kind of theology is poor, even if it means well. We do not observe Sunday Worship out of obedience to the 10 Commandments.

You can say whatever you like. I can assure you that throughout the 20th century, billions of people conscientiously kept Sunday believing they were observing the 4th commandment. This cannot be gainsaid. I was there for nearly half of it. I saw the whole thing. There has been a masterful, gradual assault upon the law of God by Satan himself. He hates it because it points out sin. First, the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, then it was discarded, and now the entire law of God has been relegated to the obsolescence of an archaic, foreign civil code. Satan exults as he sweeps countless souls into the fold of his rebellion. It will not stand. God says "Come out of her, My people," and His sheep hear His voice.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The animal sacrifices required under the Law in the time of King David did not apply as an eternal offering for our Sin Nature. Rather, it was a temporary reprieve, bringing the forgiveness of sins, to perpetuate a covenant that brought blessings upon the obedient. This Covenant of Law looked forward to what Christ would do in bringing us eternal life. In obeying the Law, King David was showing good faith in the hope that Christ would complete his obedience through our redemption on the cross.

Jesus can lift the curse of the Sin Nature from anyone He chooses. That is what Christ did for Abraham, and that is what Christ does for us today. This is why we are told to have the SAME FAITH as that of Abraham. The Covenant marked out by Circumcision of the flesh is the same covenant that Circumcises our hearts of today.

You're so close as we quote Col 2:15 through whatever. Read Colossians 2:9-15. That's the gospel.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

By the way, have you thought and pondered about why it is that under the Law, if you break one, you are said to be guilty of all?

It means that the Curse of Adam and Eve has not been lifted from the Heart. This is why Jesus referred to those who were doing His good deeds as "Lawbreakers," because though they were doing good things in the name of Christ, they were still accursed with the Sinful Nature.

I wish we all understood the Law, its purpose, and its implications.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I basically and generally share the same view as you do there. And I understand your concerns.

When I said “The people of God now are under a new covenant, one of grace and not of Law, one of the Spirit and not of the letter.”, I was not at all meaning to say that in the new covenant, there is no law. But that we no longer are bound by the written code in letters engraved in stone and written in the book of the Law of Moses under the old covenant, but bound by the Law of Christ which is written in our minds and hearts.

Tong
R1537

I see. Absolutely, we're on the same page then. We can't do anything without the word of God calling for us to obey Him. And we can't have eternal life unless we obey the word of Christ. To be righteous is to abandon our ways without Him. God bless!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'd like to know your view of the atonement under the old covenant. What is your understanding of it? Perhaps you can tell me what you think was their purpose, why were the sacrifices offered continually year by year, and so on.

Books have been written to answer these questions, so pardon me for my few paragraphs that are about to follow.

Circumcision of the Heart has been taking place since the beginning. Scripture tells us that even Abel was a prophet of God. How could Abel be a True Prophet of God, yet remain cursed? Impossible. It is impossible to hold the Faith of all those mentioned in the Great Hall of Faith, Hebrews chapter 11, if we remain under the Curse of Adam and Eve. None of those men or women could be considered of Proper Faith if they held the Sinful Nature. No one can be pure, yet cursed at the same time. We are told to have the same Faith as Abraham . . . why? Because his Faith is what is required for Salvation. And that Faith comes from God and none other . . . that Faith includes a Circumcised Heart, the very foundation of the Entire Bible.

Ezekiel chapters 11, 18, and 36 deal with this. Deut 30:6 deals with this. The Old Testament has much to say about Circumcision of the Heart, for without it, there is no reason for the Bible to have been written. Without Circumcision of the Heart, there is no reason for the Lord to create the physical world.

Animal sacrifice points to Christ on the Cross . . . why else would God suggest that burnt animal flesh has a sweet smell? I've been a cremationist and I can tell you that burnt flesh by itself is utterly disgusting. Do you understand? So, those animal sacrifices pointed to Christ, but they also atoned a person for a specific sin, but those sacrifices could never remove, or deal with the Evil Sin Nature. Animal sacrifice cannot raise the dead; those sacrifices cannot bring forth life from that which is dead . . . this is the Faith of Abraham.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV - "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."
Jeremiah 4:4 KJV - "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings."

To Circumcise ourselves to the Lord means to turn to Christ for His Holy Operation. None other can save except for Jesus.

Colossians 2:11-15 KJV - "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I plead guilty. I ask God for forgiveness. I promise no improvement because I am all the same old man still, even after God's forgiveness. See, I get angry when PROVOKED to anger, and belittle when BELITTLED. Check it up if I'm lying, because that is ONE thing I hate too much to do knowingly.
.

But you must learn NOT to belittle when being belittled. This is what it means to endure. If we cannot endure unjust punishment, as did Jesus . . . then who is our Father? We must be kind when others are not.

1 Peter 2:21, 23 KJV - 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: ... 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sadly mistaken.... Following the the Law is not perfection, as is often supposed. Rather, it is just following the Law, as written, which requires a basic adherence by faith both to the commands of God and to the means of remaining in covenant with God as imperfect people -- which again, is by faith through grace-- free grace from our free God who remains faithful despite our imperfection and lack of obedience as well as of our lack of faith and grace. This -- forgiveness and justification, happened through recourse by faith alone to the Eternal Supply of Grace and Redemption PRO-VIDED by GOD IN CHRIST, BACK THEN AS NOW. Making animal sacrifices meant one BELIEVED IN GOD IMMANUEL JESUS ANOINTED SAVIOUR OF ALL SAVED ONCE FOR ALL AND EVER....
....or it meant nothing and was a curse rather than a help in the time of dire need of The Only Helper.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here? Let me just agree with you that Jesus, the eternal word of God, is and always has been the exclusive means of eternal life for men. Animal Sacrifices brought temporary redemption, so as to keep Israel in covenant with God, but it *never* brought eternal life.

And so, following the Law was never intended to be the path of Eternal Salvation. Rather, it was a means of keeping Israel in covenant with God until Christ could come and complete Salvation through the gift of Eternal Life. It was all administered through the Spirit of Christ, prior to his coming, but could not provide by animal sacrifices what could only come by the death of Christ.

Forgiveness of sin has always been made available by God. But the forgiveness that completely puts away sin so that we can have eternal life had to come after the cross. What went before, through the Law, was just the path leading to that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus can lift the curse of the Sin Nature from anyone He chooses. That is what Christ did for Abraham, and that is what Christ does for us today. This is why we are told to have the SAME FAITH as that of Abraham. The Covenant marked out by Circumcision of the flesh is the same covenant that Circumcises our hearts of today.

You're so close as we quote Col 2:15 through whatever. Read Colossians 2:9-15. That's the gospel.

I memorized Colossians a long time ago. I know Colossians. I appreciate you think we're close. Let me state things in my own words to see how close we really are?

We have to define what we mean by "lifting the curse of sin?" The curse of sin is a number of things, the bondage of trying to live life apart from God's help, the death that inevitably comes from living life on our own terms, etc. It is failure in producing things that work and last.

Some of this indeed is lifted from men in every generation who turn back to God, to rely on Him for everything. They trust in His provision, but they also make decisions only in conjunction with the spirit and will of God. We do experience relief from some of the "curse of sin."

But we still have to die due to our contaminated human nature. Our frustration in doing right is only impeded by minimal flaws, we hope, and cannot stop us from serving God and from being sure that we have obtained eternal life since Christ died for us and rose from the dead.

We will still have to live in this fallen world, and suffer some of the problems associated with that, whether we suffer innocently or by our own errors. We remain here largely as a testimony to the fallen world of what redemption means, but also to complete what God started in the beginning, to fill the earth with the knowledge of God through the people He created.

When it comes to obtaining eternal life, certainly the faith of men in the OT achieved what was necessary for them to later acquire it. But eternal life could only be actually acquired *after the cross.* Before that, men were viewed as ineligible for access to the Tree of Life. They merely had the hope of eternal life by living in accordance with faith in God and in His holy requirements.

So perhaps we are not apart on this? But I cannot say that physical circumcision had the identical spiritual properties as spiritual circumcision. One took place before Christ's redemptive death, and could not achieve eternal life. The other is part of our redemption, and is a matter of living in accordance with the eternal life we've received.

Not the same thing. Physical circumcision could *not* achieve eternal life. Spiritual circumcision is a metaphorical statement and refers to Christ's redemptive death and deliverance of us from our sins.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

We do not observe Sunday Worship out of obedience to the 10 Commandments. Rather, Sunday Worship was started as a tradition, to set a pattern for regular Christian gatherings for fellowship. Since the Early Church began in Israel, the Sabbath had already been established as a Jewish time for gathering. And so, the Christians fashioned their own gathering day after the day of Christ's resurrection.

<Sunday Worship> out of obedience to the 10 Commandments is of course most absurd yet undeniable, is believed and taught for 'Christian faith'.
Indeed, Sunday Worship was started as a 'Christian tradition' as early as in the latter halve of the second century when Gnostics like Justin were having a field day during 'early Christianity'. So <Sunday Worship> by then must have come a long way already. And indeed so. Even from before Paul mentioned the Galatians' "former beggarly no-gods .. returned back to .. as DAYS by superstitious observation observed" [paratehreoh], <Sunday Worship> had had started out of obedience to PAGAN heathenism and barbarism.... <<to set a pattern for regular Christian gatherings for fellowship>>!? GOD FORBID! BLASPHEMY!

Since the Early Church began in Israel, the Sabbath had already been established as BIBLICAL time for gathering of True Believers in Israel-- with Jesus of Nazareth its first Preacher, Luke 4, and Jesus its first Keeper, Matthew 27:62 to 28:1-4, "according to the Scriptures" and the Law and the Promises of God, to the True Israel of God.
And so, the Christians fashioned their own Gathering-Day after the Day of Christ's Resurrection "on the Sabbath" "the Seventh Day GOD THUS CONCERNING SPAKE .. that .. WHEN JESUS GAVE THEM REST, A SABBATH-DAY-OF-REST REMAINS for the People of God" Hebrews 4:4-9 and "God would NOT speak of another day (of rest) after these things" than the one "GOD THUS CONCERNING HAD SPOKEN .. BY THE SON .. IN THESE LAST DAYS". Hebrews 4:8, 1:2.

The only Authority ever whereby God blessed, sanctified, or rested the Sabbath, is by "The Power of His Resurrection" seen in Genesis 1 to 3, Exodus 12 to 15, and the Gospels the last Chapters.

Never give the People of God the crap of any Christ-over-ruling 'tradition' of 'humanity' and modern inventiveness and smartness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

GOOD!

Good what? Are you agreeing with me or saying that we are to follow Christ's Spirit, and not follow any of the NT requirements?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Speak of the Law of Love.... Christians.... hypocrites!

You are calling Christians hypocrites? Are you excluding yourself from the family of God? Or, are you simply saying that *some* Christians are hypocrites who establish certain standards that they don't live up to?

Nobody lives up tp their standards perfectly. The hope is to generally be faithful on a consistent basis. But it is a different thing to have no standards at all. Now that would be hypocritical, to judge others for not living up to standards while not having any standards for yourself at all!

 

[Brakelite]

Most here may as well honestly and simply declare... God, I believe in the moral aspects of the ten commandments, and I'll do the best I can to keep them, but I don't recognize your authority over me regarding the 4th. You may have had authority over Israel, but not me, nuh, you can't tell me what to do.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Animal Sacrifices brought temporary redemption, so as to keep Israel in covenant with God, but it *never* brought eternal life.

Animal sacrifices brought NO, not even <<temporary redemption>>, nor <<so as to keep Israel in covenant with God>>. It never <<brought life>>; it always and only TOOK life.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

following the Law was never intended to be the path of Eternal Salvation.

Following the Law was never intended to be the path of Eternal Salvation; the FAITH by which the Law was intended to be followed, never was the path of Eternal Salvation; God in Christ always and only, was the path of Eternal Salvation. "MY PRESENCE GO WITH YOU." Or not. Which is the difference between your theology and the theology of the Israel of God and of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jim B]

Most here may as well honestly and simply declare... God, I believe in the moral aspects of the ten commandments, and I'll do the best I can to keep them, but I don't recognize your authority over me regarding the 4th. You may have had authority over Israel, but not me, nuh, you can't tell me what to do.

You're actually telling God that He has no authority over you? Or does this just refer to "most" only. If the latter, what is your evidence of this judgement against "most" on this forum?

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm not worried. It's you judging me--not God. I've taken the time to read your arguments, but I don't see you responding to mine, except that you're denying that the OT atonements were temporary. But then you quote the very Scripture that says they *are* temporary! What's the matter with you? If you quote a Scripture that says they are temporary, then why do you condemn me for agreeing with what that very Scripture says?

Indeed, it is not possible for the blood of animals to take away sins. It is obviously not saying that they did not take away the guilt of sin temporarily because that's precisely why God asked for them, to take away sins temporarily! But inasmuch as they could not remove the Sin Nature, they could not take away sins on a permanent basis!

Heb 8.4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises...
9.8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

What the above says is that the OT system was a *temporary* system, and the gifts offered there were *temporary* gifts! Your denial of that gives me pause, wondering what the basis is for your own salvation? Is it application of your obedience to a Law that could never justify, or casting yourself upon Jesus, the only eternal sacrifice for sin and the only pathway to eternal life?

The Law of Moses was not a ceremonial "object lesson," but rather, a real Covenant between God and Israel, indicating that they could obey God and be deemed righteous, although all this fell short of getting eternal life. It was a temporary system until Christ, the source of eternal life, came. Following the ceremonial rituals was just as important as following the 10 Commandments, because they were all a human response to God's command. They all equally constituted righteousness before God, and adherence to His word.

Separating the Moral Law from the Ceremonial Law is something we talk about in the NT era, because we can look back now and see that Christ fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the Law by completing what it foreshadowed--eternal redemption. And we know that Moral Law continues to be valid in the NT era, because following God's image has been Man's mandate from the beginning.

But the Moral Law in the NT does not require adherence to any aspect of Law that in the OT represented, symbolically, NT redemption. And this includes Sabbath Law. If you want to preach your Church, and not Christ, then it's a free world! As for how I stand before God, you had best look to yourself. God is my judge--not you.

What's wrong with me? You post these long essays that basically consist of you arguing with yourself.

How is "Don't blame me when God is judging you" the same as me judging you? I have no authority to judge. I have a mandate to warn people, however.

 

[Randy Kluth]

<Sunday Worship> out of obedience to the 10 Commandments is of course most absurd yet undeniable, is believed and taught for 'Christian faith'.
Indeed, Sunday Worship was started as a 'Christian tradition' as early as in the latter halve of the second century when Gnostics like Justin were having a field day during 'early Christianity'. So <Sunday Worship> by then must have come a long way already. And indeed so. Even from before Paul mentioned the Galatians' "former beggarly no-gods .. returned back to .. as DAYS by superstitious observation observed" [paratehreoh], <Sunday Worship> had had started out of obedience to PAGAN heathenism and barbarism.... <<to set a pattern for regular Christian gatherings for fellowship>>!? GOD FORBID! BLASPHEMY!

I think you're going way too far in your assessment. Yes, Sunday Worship is not always viewed with the right lens, but it does have the benefit of encouraging regular meetings between Christians. How on earth is that a horrible thing?

I don't think it has a single thing to do with Gnosticism! It's just a tradition, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't like making meeting on Sunday a "commandment"--it isn't! Meeting regularly for Christian fellowship is required, not so much by commandment as by strong encouragement.

Since the Early Church began in Israel, the Sabbath had already been established as BIBLICAL time for gathering of True Believers in Israel-- with Jesus of Nazareth its first Preacher, Luke 4, and Jesus its first Keeper, Matthew 27:62 to 28:1-4, "according to the Scriptures" and the Law and the Promises of God, to the True Israel of God.
And so, the Christians fashioned their own Gathering-Day after the Day of Christ's Resurrection "on the Sabbath" "the Seventh Day GOD THUS CONCERNING SPAKE .. that .. WHEN JESUS GAVE THEM REST, A SABBATH-DAY-OF-REST REMAINS for the People of God" Hebrews 4:4-9 and "God would NOT speak of another day (of rest) after these things" than the one "GOD THUS CONCERNING HAD SPOKEN .. BY THE SON .. IN THESE LAST DAYS". Hebrews 4:8, 1:2.

What Hebrews was talking about is separate from your claim that the Early Church met on Saturday for weekly worship. Sunday was the resurrection day--not Saturday. And Saturday was what the Jewish People observed--I don't doubt that the early Jewish believers met on Saturdays for this reason.

But later, as Jews strongly separated themselves from anything "Christian" about their religion, the meeting day got switched, at some point, to Sunday meetings, and not Sabbath meetings. At any rate, these weekly meetings had nothing to do with Sabbath observance, since Sabbath Law was part of the OT Law, which has passed away. It was still observed by the Jews, but it merited nothing for them before God.

Hebrews talks about how the Law, and all of its requirements, represented a better and different covenant, the New Covenant of Christ. And so, the Sabbath Law, the priesthood, the temple, the animal sacrifices, the dietary laws, the feasts, the purification rituals--all of it--were replaced by Christ and his eternal redemption. Going back to the Law in any way indicates that a person is rejecting eternal salvation for premature salvation, which at any rate no longer merits anybody anything.

The only Authority ever whereby God blessed, sanctified, or rested the Sabbath, is by "The Power of His Resurrection" seen in Genesis 1 to 3, Exodus 12 to 15, and the Gospels the last Chapters.

Never give the People of God the crap of any Christ-over-ruling 'tradition' of 'humanity' and modern inventiveness and smartness.

I don't know what you mean by this? Some people try to "sanctify" or authenticate OT legal rituals by making them into "Christian observances." But this would be a contradiction in terms. Anything truly Christian cannot give value to an outmoded Covenant of Law. Christ alone has the value, and he doesn't need any help from preliminary props under the Law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What's wrong with me? You post these long essays that basically consist of you arguing with yourself.

How is "Don't blame me when God is judging you" the same as me judging you? I have no authority to judge. I have a mandate to warn people, however.

I'll consider myself "warned." I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be "warned" about?

The problem is, you divert away from any reasonable argument, and if you're not interested in the actual debate, I'm not interested either.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.