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BarneyFife

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Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",

• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)
• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)
• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)
• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)
All of these are referring to sabbath days, but you (and Paul) missed one delineation of time:

WEEKS

The word used to refer to the weekly Sabbath in the OT is sometimes translated as "week," if my memory serves me correctly. Yes, this is a pesky point of contention in Isaiah 66:23, as some translations say "Sabbath" and others say "week."

And again, the weekly Sabbath points back to the event of earth's creation, not forward to Calvary ("shadows of things to come"), Hebrews 4 (which is about Heaven, anyway) notwithstanding.

By the way, when you have to resort to the Greek translation of the OT to try to prove a point, it's just weak.
 

BarneyFife

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Where in the New Testament does it tell Gentiles to keep the Sabbath Day? Where in the New Testament does it say that Sunday is a sacred Day? I don't think we will find support for either of these two ideas. What if I wanted to start a church where everyone decides to meet on Wednesday? What text in the New Testament would contradict such an idea?

In other words, if one feels obligated to take a day off work to Remember the Sabbath Day, why must it be Saturday? Why must we celebrate on Sāturni diēs (Saturn's Day)? In other words, if one were to push this idea to it's logical conclusion, Sabbatarians are worshipping a false god because they worship on Saturn's Day. Do you worship Saturn? I don't think you do. I don't either. But what is to be done? All the days of the week are named after the sun, the moon, and the planets and the gods associated with them. In other words, technically speaking, there is NO day of he week that isn't profane.

What makes a day special, convocated, or holy? Is it the day of the week? I don't think so. A day becomes holy when the entire church takes the same day off to Remember the Sabbath Day. It doesn't matter if that day is Saturday, Sunday, or Wednesday. Right? Because remember, the ACTUAL Sabbath day is the day that God rested. Right? THAT's the day we remember. Right?
Wrong

Again, where in the Bible does it say every authoritative statement in the OT has to be repeated in the NT for it to be valid?

The English names of the days of the week have nothing to do with the holiness (or lack thereof) of a day. Absolutely nothing. In many languages of the world (including Spanish "Sabado" and Russian "Subota," which are biggies) the word for the seventh day of the week (our "Saturday") literally means "Sabbath."

What makes a day special, "convocated," or holy is, literally speaking, God Himself, which He does both in Genesis 2 and reiterates in exodus 20. People or churches can't even make themselves holy.
 

mailmandan

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All of these are referring to sabbath days, but you (and Paul) missed one delineation of time:

WEEKS

The word used to refer to the weekly Sabbath in the OT is sometimes translated as "week," if my memory serves me correctly. Yes, this is a pesky point of contention in Isaiah 66:23, as some translations say "Sabbath" and others say "week."

And again, the weekly Sabbath points back to the event of earth's creation, not forward to Calvary ("shadows of things to come"), Hebrews 4 (which is about Heaven, anyway) notwithstanding.

By the way, when you have to resort to the Greek translation of the OT to try to prove a point, it's just weak.
The points were not weak at all and the old testament did a great job of clarifying the point I was making, but some just refuse to see it and continue to remain on the old covenant plantation.

When God wants to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. SDA's typically argue that the Sabbath Day of Colossians 2:16 is the years Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Colossians 2:16 must refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Ezek 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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For instance:
  • You say here that you're sure I behave differently at church.
  • And yet you say that if you went to my church you would leave because of my behavior.
Can you see how little logical thought is evident in this expression?

Amazing. What you left out was the qualifying statement, which is: "(if you were allowed to continue without consequence)."

Yes, I'm sure that you behave differently at church, but because I'm not God, nor do I hold a crystal ball to show me how you are at Church, there is a possibility that you may actually be a most difficult person. How would I know?

I'm sorry that you're unable to follow, at least me. But just because you cannot follow my simple writings, this does not mean that I am wrong and that you are right.

As for asking that the Lord would grant you Blessings, I wrote that because we are commanded to "bless our enemies."

Matthew 5:44 KJV - "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

I detest how you treat us, therefore, I ask that the Lord would Bless you, meaning that He would wake you up and realize that what you are doing is 100% wrong. You are hurting people, no doubt, and I am asking that you stop and begin showing the Fruit of the Spirit, which includes peace, love, and joy.

Galatians 5:22 KJV - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith . . ." - Children of the devil do not possess these qualities at a deep, Spiritual level. When do you express these Works of the Spirit? At home? At work? If you don't express these qualities at a Christian forum . . . where do you express them?
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Now, see, you talk about "embittering souls" and in the very next post you accuse someone of being unconverted. That's not nice. I get jumped on all the time about being harsh and direct, but you can scour this entire website and you will not find me once telling someone they are not saved, converted, are going to hell, etc. I just lay out the facts as I see them and wait for the deluge. You could stand to come down off your high horse. (That's me being direct--to tell someone they are not regenerate is condescending and judgmental in the way that Jesus condemned.)

You refuse to tell of a Transformation story because extremely few actually have them. Why? Because extremely few have been "known" by God. When God shows Himself in a Powerful way, it is impossible to keep your mouth shut about it. Instead, what you do is twist and turn all things against everyone, and even turn the Word of the Lord against Himself.

Having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I assure you of this . . . if you had felt His Power, your attitude would change just as mine has changed. I live and breathe because our Lord allows it. I know that God can vaporize me in a nanosecond . . . and I mean that I feel this within the marrow of my bones. Therefore, I have a clear "fear of the Lord." I have felt Holy Terror and the Lord's even more Powerful and convincing Love and Peace that come from the Holy Spirit.

You, sir . . . are walking on very dangerous grounds. I don't say that with hatred or bitterness of any kind, but out of Love for your soul. The Power of God as it is described in the Bible is still there. He is the same God as in the Old and New Testaments; just because you don't hear, see, or feel Him, doesn't mean that He is of a lesser status, or that of a fairytale (as most view Him within the deep recesses of their honest minds).
 

CadyandZoe

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Yet you can't produce one scripture that categorically repudiates Sabbath keeping. And history reveals, even in the book of acts, Christians continued to observe Sabbath for several centuries after Christ and who prophetically revealed that such a practice was to be expected. Christianity is a Bible faith. Not solely a new testament faith.


Why should it have to? And the rest of your post is so convoluted it is impossible to respond to.
There are many reasons why The New Testament did NOT tell Gentiles to keep the Sabbath Day. First, keeping the Sabbath Day is the sign of the covenant between God and the nation of Israel. Second, Paul teaches us that we are not under law but under grace. And finally, Paul tells us not to allow anyone to judge us based on the fact that we DON'T keep the Sabbath day. Get it?
 
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CadyandZoe

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If you love Me, keep My Commandments..... He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I suppose there might be Christians that haven't read the New Testament and don't know what is meant in that verse.
 

CadyandZoe

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Wrong

Again, where in the Bible does it say every authoritative statement in the OT has to be repeated in the NT for it to be valid?
Why is it called the New Testament? Isn't it obvious?

The English names of the days of the week have nothing to do with the holiness (or lack thereof) of a day.
Tell that to the Romans.

What makes a day special, "convocated," or holy is, literally speaking, God Himself, which He does both in Genesis 2 and reiterates in exodus 20. People or churches can't even make themselves holy.
You are saying that God made "Saturn's Day" holy?
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes, let's be quite clear. The Jews did, in fact, believe that the law would save them from their sins. Practically everyone knows that.
Your Sunday School teacher was wrong.

Paul said that he was evil on a spiritual level, this was after his rebirth.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yet you can't produce one scripture that categorically repudiates Sabbath keeping. And history reveals, even in the book of acts, Christians continued to observe Sabbath for several centuries after Christ and who prophetically revealed that such a practice was to be expected. Christianity is a Bible faith. Not solely a new testament faith.

But the NT trumps the OT Law, and that is the point. You can "follow the Bible" by building an ark, or by offering up lambs as sacrifices. That would be "following the Bible," but that is not "Christianity."

Colossians 2 is not an isolated proof text against Sabbath keeping. Paul wouldn't have had a problem with non-believing Jews observing the Sabbath, nor with Jewish believers observing the Sabbath. His interest was only in making it clear that it was no longer a required law for Christians.

SDAs are free, therefore, to observe the Sabbath if they want to open a door to witness to Jews. And they're free to worship on Saturdays, if they wish. It is only wrong, according to Paul, to teach that all Christians *must* observe Sabbath as a *law.*

In many places Paul taught that the Law has been supplanted by following Christ. And following Christ requires no observance of the Old Covenant. Christ has his own set of laws, some of them repeating OT laws and some not.

But one thing is very clear from all of Paul's writings--repeating OT requirements in the NT is not sanctioning any OT requirements. Everything now is focused on Christ, because only his work redeemed us. Everything Israel did under the Law fell short of eternal life, no matter how righteous it had made them.
 
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BarneyFife

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The points were not weak at all and the old testament did a great job of clarifying the point I was making, but some just refuse to see it and continue to remain on the old covenant plantation.

When God wants to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. SDA's typically argue that the Sabbath Day of Colossians 2:16 is the years Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Colossians 2:16 must refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Ezek 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day.
Nice dodge, but I was referring to the use of the Septuagint in particular, which you obviously ignored.

And not one of the verses you list here refers to the 4th commandment.
 

BarneyFife

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Amazing. What you left out was the qualifying statement, which is: "(if you were allowed to continue without consequence)."
Not so amazing. There are mean people at church.
Children of the devil do not possess these qualities at a deep, Spiritual level.
Nice. I think we all know what this implies. By disagreeing with you, you consider me an enemy. But intimating that I am a child of the devil is okay. I see.
I am asking that you stop and begin showing the Fruit of the Spirit, which includes peace, love, and joy.
Sorry, can't oblige your ultra-sensitive demands. I know you said "asking" but I think we all know what's going on here. I'm being virtually demonized by "love."
I'm sorry that you're unable to follow, at least me. But just because you cannot follow my simple writings, this does not mean that I am wrong and that you are right.
Passive-aggressive much? This means I'm stupid as well as evil.
You refuse to tell of a Transformation story because extremely few actually have them. Why? Because extremely few have been "known" by God. When God shows Himself in a Powerful way, it is impossible to keep your mouth shut about it. Instead, what you do is twist and turn all things against everyone, and even turn the Word of the Lord against Himself.

Having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I assure you of this . . . if you had felt His Power, your attitude would change just as mine has changed. I live and breathe because our Lord allows it. I know that God can vaporize me in a nanosecond . . . and I mean that I feel this within the marrow of my bones. Therefore, I have a clear "fear of the Lord." I have felt Holy Terror and the Lord's even more Powerful and convincing Love and Peace that come from the Holy Spirit.

You, sir . . . are walking on very dangerous grounds. I don't say that with hatred or bitterness of any kind, but out of Love for your soul. The Power of God as it is described in the Bible is still there. He is the same God as in the Old and New Testaments; just because you don't hear, see, or feel Him, doesn't mean that He is of a lesser status, or that of a fairytale (as most view Him within the deep recesses of their honest minds).
This entire post is just patronizing, self-righteous ballyhoo. Your condescension knows no bounds. You know nothing about me or my walk with the Lord.

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

We can cease our discussion any time you like, since they have been such that I am not anxious to continue them. I won't take much more of your hypocritical bullying, in any case.

just because you don't hear, see, or feel Him
Simply unbelievable. You've got some nerve, you have.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

• festival - yearly Sabbaths,
• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
• or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

Non-existent!
NO <<• festival - yearly Sabbaths,>>;
NO <<• a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,>>;
NO <<• or a Sabbath day>>;
NO <<these things>>; NO <<these things were>>;
NO <<these things were shadows>>.

16 either in respect of a feast’s (eating and drinking) [ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς]
or of month’s or Weekly Sabbath’s— ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,
17what (eating and drinking) is spectre (shadow) [ἅ ἐστιν σκιὰ τῶν]
of the imminent things: [τῶν μελλόντων·]
indeed OF CHRIST’S OWN the BODY (the Church) [τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ].

Look at Paul's reasoning, he is condoning, consoling and encouraging; NOT judging, warning, discouraging.

Paul supports the Church over against the WORLD, he does not oppose the Law or the Church or its practices or its faith like YOU do!
 
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BarneyFife

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Why is it called the New Testament? Isn't it obvious?

Tell that to the Romans.

You are saying that God made "Saturn's Day" holy?
If you want to dodge the truth, that's your prerogative.
Your Sunday School teacher was wrong.
About a lot of things, yes. Evidently, you have it all figured out.
Paul said that he was evil on a spiritual level, this was after his rebirth.
Not only are you superior in Biblical knowledge than my childhood Sunday School teacher (which I might actually concede), but you're smarter than the thousands and thousands of learned scholars who have argued both sides of the spiritual condition of Paul in Romans 7 and 8 for centuries. Good on you.
 

mjrhealth

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Honest im sure like teh rest i have being made ignored. there is scripture about the new wine in the old wine skin and how they who have not tasted of teh new wine, teh "Holy Spirit" prefer the old wine the "law", so all they are stating is that they do not have or know the Holy Spirit, and that you should not try to mix them both as they do, and where is there heart its their religion and their doctrines they promote just like the catholics Mother and daughter, catholic church is teh mother of harlots and SDA is just one of her many daughters,
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed:

There is NO <connection> in Colossians 2:16,17 with Galatians 4:9,10. NONE. No, there is, come to think of it, THE Church-OPPOSING and Church-CORRUPTING WORLD, in Colossians identified times over before and after 2:16,17 throughout the Letter; in Galatians the WORLD AGAIN with "DAYS SUPERSTITIOUSLY OBSERVED BY OBSERVATION", the chief and QUEEN of these PAGAN, IDOLATROUS, days OF THE WORLD of HEATHENS having been "the Day of the lord SUN".
 
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CadyandZoe

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If you want to dodge the truth, that's your prerogative.

About a lot of things, yes. Evidently, you have it all figured out.

Not only are you superior in Biblical knowledge than my childhood Sunday School teacher (which I might actually concede), but you're smarter than the thousands and thousands of learned scholars who have argued both sides of the spiritual condition of Paul in Romans 7 and 8 for centuries. Good on you.
You are dodging the Truth. You believe, without foundation, that the Ten Commandments are different somehow than the other commandments and ordinances of the Mosaic Law. In your view, we are not obligated to keep all 613, only the ten. You have been trained by your teachers to think of the Ten Commandments as distinct from the rest of the commandments and since Keeping the Sabbath Day is one of the Ten, then you believe you are obligated to rest on Saturday. You are critical of those who rest on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is the day that the Lord rose from the dead. And thus, for the sake of your holy day, you cause division in the church.

How can that be? How can a fellow brother in Christ set out to divide the church?

And yes, my interpretation of Romans 7 and 8 is correct. I wouldn't have taught it to you if it wasn't.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",

• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)
• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)
• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)
• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy day, including the Sabbath.

GALATIANS-- not Colossians.

Colossians does not say clearly or darkly, <you observe> -- YOU say it does, clearly darkly!

Colossians has none of YOUR <<• days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)>>. Least of all was "Sabbatohn" in Colossians, "the Weekly Sabbath Day" OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH AND FAITH in any way <corresponding> to the "days superstitiously observed by observation" in Galatians. You say it was, Paul said it was not.

Colossians has none of YOUR <<• months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)>> which, <"a new moon"> also is non-existent <in Col. 2>.

Colossians has none of YOUR <<• seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)>> which <"festivals"> also are non-existent <in Col. 2>.

Colossians has none of YOUR <<• and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)>>

These are ALL, YOURS, Not Paul's; not Colossians'. You must think we are illiterate or blind or stupid or all together.