Comparing KJV With ESV

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marks

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This thread is about comparing KJV with the ESV to see how changing certain words can change a message that can support false teachings.
Hi, I'm curious, are these differences from different translations of the same Greek words? Or are you looking at places where the Greek manuscripts differ?

FWIW . . . While I don't see the KJV as the "perfect translation", I find is to most faithfully represent the Greek manuscript compared to others, overall.

Much love!
 
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marks

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I'm talking about the poetic nature of 1:27. The ESV shows this with the formatting of the script, the KJV doesn't include any reference to this. Why not, isn't it important?
Formatting, capitalization, and punctuation are all additional to the original manuscripts, and each of these can transform the meaning of a passage. Poetic formatting may or may not be accurate, for instance, determining if a passage is Chiastic poetry, and if so, where it begins and ends, this can be very subjective, subject to opinion, and may be best left for the Spirit to interpret for us. For instance, if you take passages from Daniel or Revelation and set them into a Chiastic structure, there are various ways you can organize the same sets of clauses, each yielding very different meanings.

Much love!
 
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Christ4Me

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That's what I'm asking you. You're the one claiming (if I am not mistaken) that the KJV is the perfect or best translation and all others are corrupt.

That is not the same thing as you insinuating that I know everything.

And no, the KJV is not perfect, but I rely on the KJV for the meat of His words to see the truth in His words as they align together with the rest of scriptures whereas the other modern bibles have not.

So if a believer gets stuck trying to correct a believer in the ESV, check with the KJV to see if that helps. Same goes for any other modern Bible if one gets stuck trying to correct any one, check with the KJV. Some modern bibles has the verse or verses same as the KJV and others do not. When dealing with a lot of changed messages and false teachings, I have found going to the KJV has address them all. So while some modern bibles can correct false teaching in some cases and other correct false teachings in other cases, I have found the KJV to have all that meat for correction.

That being the case, the fact that 1:27 is poetic must not be relevant.
As a matter of fact I think it is highly relevant. Are we created in the image of God? I say we are not as God's creation is not yet complete and His whole plan is to make man in His image. Genesis 1 is a prophesy of six thousand year 'days'. When Jesus returns to claim His kingdom at the end of the sixth day, then His Sabbatical reign will start and we can join Him in His rest for 1000 years.

Au contraire .. God's creation was complete for He called everything good each day and rested on the 7th day from His act in creation.

The fall of man tainted everything for why God's plan of redemption through Jesus Christ came into play. Jesus Christ has completed believers but we have yet to receive our redemption as it draweth nigh; that perfect state to live in unity with the Father & the Son in Heaven yet.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

There's a consequence for not running that race daily. For living in sin, there is not only the loss of rewards of crown, but becoming a castaway.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Jesus will finish His work in those unrepentant saints and former believers left behind to die as their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation to be vessels of wood & earth aka vessels unto dishonor in His House.

After the 1000 year reign of Christ, Satan will be released from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season before being defeated again. Then the White Throne Judgment comes and after all that is done, Jesus gives the completed kingdom back to the Father. Matthew 13:33
 

Christ4Me

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Hi, I'm curious, are these differences from different translations of the same Greek words? Or are you looking at places where the Greek manuscripts differ?

More like errors in translating into English as changing from the actual message from the Greek.

FWIW . . . While I don't see the KJV as the "perfect translation", I find is to most faithfully represent the Greek manuscript compared to others, overall.

Much love!

I do not consider the KJV as a perfect translation either, and like you, I find it the most faithful, but in giving us the meat of His words for us to discern good & evil by His words in correcting false teachings with His help.
 
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Christ4Me

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I saw that the word 'eagle' can be rendered 'vulture', mentioned in your post.

In verse 37, the gathering is with hospitality and so where the abiding body of Christ shall be in Heaven, is where the O.T. & N.T. saints shall be gathered by winglike flight, which is eagles as derived from that Greek word, aetos That is how I am reading body and eagles to mean.

This is one of the examples that I believe the KJV & other Bibles should have done better in translating the Greek in Luke 17:37 to English.
 

farouk

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In verse 37, the gathering is with hospitality and so where the abiding body of Christ shall be in Heaven, is where the O.T. & N.T. saints shall be gathered by winglike flight, which is eagles as derived from that Greek word, aetos That is how I am reading body and eagles to mean.

This is one of the examples that I believe the KJV & other Bibles should have done better in translating the Greek in Luke 17:37 to English.
Interesting; some ppl would understand eagles to be like (predatory) vultures; but I've not studied the passage closely.
 
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strobe

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Au contraire .. God's creation was complete for He called everything good each day and rested on the 7th day from His act in creation.

The fall of man tainted everything for why God's plan of redemption through Jesus Christ came into play. Jesus Christ has completed believers but we have yet to receive our redemption as it draweth nigh; that perfect state to live in unity with the Father & the Son in Heaven yet.
If God has already rested why did Jesus, when He was accused of breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath, say "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" John 5:17. The fall was an essential part of God's amazing plan and was required to make Eve the "mother of all living" Genesis 3:20.
 

atpollard

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[Mat 24:28 KJV] 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

  • Eagles do not gather for carrion, but vultures do and the vultures of the Middle East often resemble eagles in appearance.

[Luk 17:37 KJV] 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.
[Luk 17:37 ESV] 37 And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather."
  • the Greek word “body” means the living body of an animal or the dead body of a man.
  • so which translation is more “correct”?

Sorry KJV-only fans, but ESV got this one right (and the FOOTNOTES identify the alternative meanings possible for the words).
Haters gonna hate, hate, hate … but I’m just gonna shake it off, shake it off. ;)
 

strobe

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That is not the same thing as you insinuating that I know everything.

And no, the KJV is not perfect, but I rely on the KJV for the meat of His words to see the truth in His words as they align together with the rest of scriptures whereas the other modern bibles have not.

So if a believer gets stuck trying to correct a believer in the ESV, check with the KJV to see if that helps. Same goes for any other modern Bible if one gets stuck trying to correct any one, check with the KJV. Some modern bibles has the verse or verses same as the KJV and others do not. When dealing with a lot of changed messages and false teachings, I have found going to the KJV has address them all. So while some modern bibles can correct false teaching in some cases and other correct false teachings in other cases, I have found the KJV to have all that meat for correction.
I didn't mean to insinuate that, I know that there is no one who knows everything and I only come here to discuss things and present my unusual take on things. I seek discussion and debate and I hope to be shown where I am right and more importantly, wrong.
I have copies of both the ESV and KJV on my desk in front of me and that is why it came to my attention that there is a disparity in the text. I have contacted Rabbis and learned heads of academic Bible organisations regarding the question I have posed to you (although it is meant for anyone who can answer, not just you specifically) I am not interested in changing your mind away from the KJV as I love it myself but I do want to know what that poetic form is all about and what it implies. I am sure it means something and I want to know what. So far no one has been able to help. Are we in the image of God? I would have thought the Bible would make a lot more of this than it does if it were so but the ONLY references to man in God's image in the entire Bible that am aware of are found in Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 9:6 which is also in this scripted and indented format.
 

Christ4Me

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If God has already rested why did Jesus, when He was accused of breaking the law by healing on the Sabbath, say "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" John 5:17.

Well, be clear about what it is we are talking about. If in regards to creation, everything was good each day and God rested on the 7th day as creation was complete.

In regards to our redemption, God is at work now.

The fall was an essential part of God's amazing plan and was required to make Eve the "mother of all living" Genesis 3:20.

No doubt but creation is one thing for which He was done and rested the 7th day for and redemption is another.
 

Enoch111

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How about comparing Genesis 1:26-27 in the KJV and ESV? It seems reasonable to consider the very first chapter of the Bible after all. Can anyone explain the difference?
KING JAMES BIBLE
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them
have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created
him;
male and female he created them.

There is essentially NO DIFFERENCE. So what's your point?
"The heavens" (in the ESV) is misleading and inaccurate. But "fowl" = birds and "cattle" = livestock.
 

Enoch111

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Are we in the image of God?
Of course we are. What makes you think that man -- as originally created -- was not in the image of God? Because of Adam's sin, mankind (in the natural state) is now in the image of Adam, and that is why the New Birth is an absolutely necessity according to Christ.
 

strobe

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Well, be clear about what it is we are talking about. If in regards to creation, everything was good each day and God rested on the 7th day as creation was complete.

In regards to our redemption, God is at work now.



No doubt but creation is one thing for which He was done and rested the 7th day for and redemption is another.
That can't possibly be correct in my opinion precisely because we are not in the image of God. If you can prove we are in His image you may change my mind.
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Jubilees 4:29-30 And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.
 

Christ4Me

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I didn't mean to insinuate that, I know that there is no one who knows everything and I only come here to discuss things and present my unusual take on things. I seek discussion and debate and I hope to be shown where I am right and more importantly, wrong.

I agree with the poster "marks" in his reply to you.

Comparing KJV With ESV

But I do thank you for sharing.

I have copies of both the ESV and KJV on my desk in front of me and that is why it came to my attention that there is a disparity in the text. I have contacted Rabbis and learned heads of academic Bible organisations regarding the question I have posed to you (although it is meant for anyone who can answer, not just you specifically)

Okay. Hopefully those who intentionally meant it to be poetic in the ESV, can answer that for you. I cannot.

I am not interested in changing your mind away from the KJV as I love it myself but I do want to know what that poetic form is all about and what it implies. I am sure it means something and I want to know what. So far no one has been able to help.

Well, I would think the ESV people would be the ones to ask about that. Unless you got that notion or teaching from someone else, maybe you should consult with that person or people.

Are we in the image of God? I would have thought the Bible would make a lot more of this than it does if it were so but the ONLY references to man in God's image in the entire Bible that am aware of are found in Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 9:6 which is also in this scripted and indented format.

Well I believe the Father has an image and the Son has an image for why the Word of God made a request in the plural sense by asking the Father to make man in our image and after our likeness so that when the Word of God got the Father's permission, as the One God, He created man in His image and after His likeness with the father & the Spirit as Witnesses for the Word of God to established His word in creation as our Creator.
 

strobe

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KING JAMES BIBLE
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them
have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created
him;
male and female he created them.

There is essentially NO DIFFERENCE. So what's your point?
"The heavens" (in the ESV) is misleading and inaccurate. But "fowl" = birds and "cattle" = livestock.
I think you need to read my previous posts.
 

farouk

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I agree with the poster "marks" in his reply to you.

Comparing KJV With ESV

But I do thank you for sharing.



Okay. Hopefully those who intentionally meant it to be poetic in the ESV, can answer that for you. I cannot.



Well, I would think the ESV people would be the ones to ask about that. Unless you got that notion or teaching from someone else, maybe you should consult with that person or people.



Well I believe the Father has an image and the Son has an image for why the Word of God made a request in the plural sense by asking the Father to make man in our image and after our likeness so that when the Word of God got the Father's permission, as the One God, He created man in His image and after His likeness with the father & the Spirit as Witnesses for the Word of God to established His word in creation as our Creator.
Whatever the merits of the ESV, I do find it rather bland and unmemorable compared with the KJV...
 
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Christ4Me

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That can't possibly be correct in my opinion precisely because we are not in the image of God. If you can prove we are in His image you may change my mind.

This may help prove that we were made in His image as this thread is about Jesus before His incarnation as the Lord Jehovah, the God men had seen in the O.T.

Jesus Is Jehovah