Conjecture

[marks]

The only thing I will say of this is that I see that we will be judged (as Christians) NOT for sin, as Jesus already took the punishment for sin. Yet, our works will be judged by fire...and to me, anyhow - that will determine where we will be in The Kingdom. Yes, some will be beaten with few stripes and some with many. Oh boy, I sure hate pain, lol.

Hi Nancy,

I agree, Jesus took our judgment for sin, yet still I read . . .

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Now, if this is based on the imputation of sin, that's one thing, as sin is not imputed to us, and then what would be the bad that we have done?

But then I look at . . .

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

And for the wrong we receive handfuls of ashes!



I wait as patiently as I can . . . to fall into the hands of my God Who is a consuming fire! Burn it all away!

But whatever we may say about what form this judgment takes, still the words are used, "will suffer loss".

Daniel 12:3 "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Really? Then we are of all men most miserable.

Bible truth is divine reality. Not the opinions of men. The Gospel is not opinion. Salvation is not opinion. The Second Coming of Christ is not opinion. These are all divine and spiritual realities. These are OBJECTIVE REALITIES.

However, Christians are presently being subjected to a lot of spiritual nonsense because many deceivers have entered into the world and into the churches.

Agreed Enoch. Yet, it really does all boil down to how we personally interpret the Word of God. We hear so many differing "opinions" on how this or that scripture should be interpreted yet, when our hearts are in the right place and we are humble and totally open to Gods Spirit in full submission, we land on something in the bible that speaks to us in a way it does not speak to another...how can we say someone is wrong...as long as it DOES line up? Should we not always go back to the simplicity of the Gospel? I would say yes! Amen! ♥

 

[marks]

Should we not always go back to the simplicity of the Gospel?

Yet even this "simplicity" is heavily disputed!

 

[Stranger]

I never said that the bible is conjecture. That is more your way of using it! An actual reading of what I wrote would reveal that conjecture is what we do regarding our own personal destiny in eternity.

Making the bible to be the truth is to misunderstand the bible...to use it improperly. By whose interpretation of the bible can the truth be understood?

The bible speaks about the truth...but the truth is alive in a person. But it takes the Spirit of truth to reveal the truth that is contained in the bible.

Sure you did. See your post #(2), your first sentence. Which Nancy even pointed out.

(2 Tim. 3:16) disagrees with you. But what does it matter? It's just the Bible, the Word of God.

Stranger

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And these we know because the Scriptures define what happened for us.

But do all who see things, even what they believe are heavenly things, are all these experiences true? The thing is, people can be wildly different from each other as they describe their excursions into the heavenly realm.

This has much to do with why I don't share many details of my life with God, knowing that we all experience things differently, we all have personal relationships with our Creator, and I think there is already enough dispute over what the Bible teaches without serving up a bunch of my experiences to distract away from Scritpure.

No one can know God any better whether or not I've played Twister with Jesus. Not that I have! I don't think I'm that flexible anymore!

But as we hear others report their experiences, all we really have to go by is what else they say, and whether it agrees with Scripture or not.

Much love!

Not so! We have the witness of the Spirit too! You act like all we have is scripture but no confirmation by the Spirit!

 

[Episkopos]

Sure you did. See your post #(2), your first sentence. Which Nancy even pointed out.

(2 Tim. 3:16) disagrees with you. But what does it matter? It's just the Bible, the Word of God.

Stranger

You have misunderstood. The bible is not a religious book that is given to us to puff up the outer man. No one knows what will happen on judgment day. Judge nothing before the time. (that is in the bible BTW)

 

[marks]

Not so! We have the witness of the Spirit too! You act like all we have is scripture but no confirmation by the Spirit!

But when each of us claims some different confirmation from the Spirit, God is not the One Who originates confusion, people do that. One tells this experience, another tells that experience, one say, no, that's not how it happens, the other says, that's how it happened for me, and who is the arbiter?

We have a written bound book that we can compare our subjective experiences to, and others. The witness of the Spirit in my appears to be good enough for me, but not enough for others, it seems!

We can't have Scripture with out the Spirit, but we need the Bible too.

You don't 'hear' what the Spirit says to me. The Holy Spirit confirms with my spirit that I am a child of God, but unless God is giving you a word of knowledge, all you know about me is whether I look like a Christian in your eyes, which is to me to say whether or not my actions and words conform to what God says a Christian is, and I posit that He does that in the Bible, so we're all going by the same thing, as opposed to our own thoughts, which vary widely from each other.

The Spirit's testimony in my is useful to me, but is His testimony in me useful to you?

Much love!

 

[Stranger]

You have misunderstood. The bible is not a religious book that is given to us to puff up the outer man. No one knows what will happen on judgment day. Judge nothing before the time. (that is in the bible BTW)

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus considered it so. "It is written". (Matt. 4:4,7,10)

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Yet even this "simplicity" is heavily disputed!

Not by me, I'm a simple person and have no choice but to seek Him as a child, lol. And, seek Him I do every second of every day. Amen!

 

[Episkopos]

The Bible is the written Word of God. Jesus considered it so. "It is written". (Matt. 4:4,7,10)

Stranger

That's not the issue. The bible points to a living relationship with God...not just with a book. This is where the dishonesty lies. The bible even says....the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. So the dishonesty continues.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

I agree, Jesus took our judgment for sin, yet still I read . . .

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Now, if this is based on the imputation of sin, that's one thing, as sin is not imputed to us, and then what would be the bad that we have done?

But then I look at . . .

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

And for the wrong we receive handfuls of ashes!



I wait as patiently as I can . . . to fall into the hands of my God Who is a consuming fire! Burn it all away!

But whatever we may say about what form this judgment takes, still the words are used, "will suffer loss".

Daniel 12:3 "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Much love!

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Yes, I agree and, this is what I am trying to say about the many vs few stripes but, even so...our sins are forgiven...how many sins did you commit when Jesus died? Well, none! In His reality or eternalness yes, as He knows the end form the beginning yet, in "time"...we had not even been born yet. I know that our "works" will be judged, weather good or bad but...not sin. IF we have honestly, sincerely repented and continue to grow strong in our faith, our works will be done from the heart and not grudgingly. If done as a "duty" or as a way to work our way to Him ...I see that as wood, hay and stubble....burnt up. Our "good works" done in His name will be tried and found pleasing.
So, I guess I am trying to differentiate between "sin" and "works" being judged...only the goats will be judged for their sin...not the sheep. IMHO ♥

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But when each of us claims some different confirmation from the Spirit, God is not the One Who originates confusion, people do that. One tells this experience, another tells that experience, one say, no, that's not how it happens, the other says, that's how it happened for me, and who is the arbiter?

You are not making any sense to me. Whether men argue about one another's experiences being real or not, or whether they just argue about what a verse means, they are not in agreement. You seem to think there will be less argument if no one talks about their experience of God or talks about what they have learned in their walk...

 

[marks]

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Yes, I agree and, this is what I am trying to say about the many vs few stripes but, even so...our sins are forgiven...how many sins did you commit when Jesus died? Well, none! In His reality or eternalness yes, as He knows the end form the beginning yet, in "time"...we had not even been born yet. I know that our "works" will be judged, weather good or bad but...not sin. IF we have honestly, sincerely repented and continue to grow strong in our faith, our works will be done from the heart and not grudgingly. If done as a "duty" or as a way to work our way to Him ...I see that as wood, hay and stubble....burnt up. Our "good works" done in His name will be tried and found pleasing.
So, I guess I am trying to differentiate between "sin" and "works" being judged...only the goats will be judged for their sin...not the sheep. IMHO ♥

This reminds me of another place . . .

1 Corinthians 4
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

And then shall every man have praise of God, literally, the shall praise be becoming to each from God.

I love simplicity!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The bible points to a living relationship with God...not just with a book.

Well, yes and no.

What I mean is the Bible does indeed point us to a living relationship with God, but it does so much more than that, the Bible will also lead us into the true knowledge of Him from Whom we've been born. Mankind seems prone to being deceived, and God gave an external revelation by which we can test and know the internal revelation.

It does more than point us to God, it tells us what knowing God really is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are not making any sense to me. Whether men argue about one another's experiences being real or not, or whether they just argue about what a verse means, they are not in agreement. You seem to think there will be less argument if no one talks about their experience of God or talks about what they have learned in their walk...

Not exactly. We can in fact build each other with our testimonies, to a point. And under certain conditions. One of those conditions would be, to me, that the fruit of the testimony is Biblical Christianity, therein lies the problem. If the testimony produces something unbiblical it does not edify, naturally.

I believe that as God intends for us to unified in both knowledge and faith, I think this refers to that we all hold to the same teachings, and that we all believe in the same ways, and in this unity, there would be no argument over doctrine or experience. Unity of faith in my understanding is that we have a like precious faith as with each other, and with the Apostles, and if that is so, there won't be any concern. We'll recognize the Spirit in each other, and we'll all teach the same things.

But an over-emphasis on the experiential and in particular when there is doctrinal division, I think the doctrines need to be settled first before we start trying so sort out with each other our internal and subjective understandings of things we've experienced.

Clear as mud again I expect! But hopefully this helps share my thoughts. And I appreciate your discussion!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not exactly. We can in fact build each other with our testimonies, to a point. And under certain conditions. One of those conditions would be, to me, that the fruit of the testimony is Biblical Christianity, therein lies the problem. If the testimony produces something unbiblical it does not edify, naturally.

I believe that as God intends for us to unified in both knowledge and faith, I think this refers to that we all hold to the same teachings, and that we all believe in the same ways, and in this unity, there would be no argument over doctrine or experience. Unity of faith in my understanding is that we have a like precious faith as with each other, and with the Apostles, and if that is so, there won't be any concern. We'll recognize the Spirit in each other, and we'll all teach the same things.

But an over-emphasis on the experiential and in particular when there is doctrinal division, I think the doctrines need to be settled first before we start trying so sort out with each other our internal and subjective understandings of things we've experienced.

Clear as mud again I expect! But hopefully this helps share my thoughts. And I appreciate your discussion!

Much love!

Once again, I do not see where epi's testimony is something unbiblical. And as far as working out some agreement on doctrine, that will not happen between you and epi, so...

 

[Nancy]

Well, yes and no.

What I mean is the Bible does indeed point us to a living relationship with God, but it does so much more than that, the Bible will also lead us into the true knowledge of Him from Whom we've been born. Mankind seems prone to being deceived, and God gave an external revelation by which we can test and know the internal revelation.

It does more than point us to God, it tells us what knowing God really is.

Much love!

Agreed! Yet, we can NOT discount another's experience. After all, it is a personal relationship and...we won't have the very same experiences, at least not in the same way?
I love The Word, it is my map ♥ And, not all agree with me as, I must filter all things through it. God tells us that in the end days, many will dream dreams and have visions and, that is awesome. If those visions or dreams one tells about do not line up with His Word...then I question and, will always get an answer ♥

 

[marks]

Once again, I do not see where epi's testimony is something unbiblical. And as far as working out some agreement on doctrine, that will not happen between you and epi, so...

And I don't question his experiences, only his doctrine.

And you are right, it's not looking like there will be much opportunity even for discussion, let alone agreement.

Sometimes that's how it is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agreed! Yet, we can NOT discount another's experience. After all, it is a personal relationship and...we won't have the very same experiences, at least not in the same way?
I love The Word, it is my map ♥ And, not all agree with me as, I must filter all things through it. God tells us that in the end days, many will dream dreams and have visions and, that is awesome. If those visions or dreams one tells about do not line up with His Word...then I question and, will always get an answer ♥

Just so!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now any honest person who owns a bible and believes in God knows that any kind of opinion as to what God will decide about us personally is strictly based on conjecture.

The more I think about this, the more I think that this assumes we cannot take God for His Word.

This assumes that God cannot do as He said He would, and that was to testify in each of us that we are His children.

Your assertion is that we cannot know, and therefore must only conjecture. On the basis of being rewarded for our works, I agree. We cannot know the quality of our works, only Jesus will be the judge of those. But as to our relationship with God, if we consider that the Bible tells us He intends that we will know, and He tells us how that will happen, then,

I think an honest person would not deny that, and assume that we're just left guessing.

Much love!