Crazy......the left would do ANYTHING....

[junobet]

Neither did He preach social pacifism. Read my last paragraph in post #17. Though to amadeus, I had you in mind also.

Stranger

Neither did He preach social pacifism. Read my last paragraph in post #17. Though to amadeus, I had you in mind also.

Stranger

" ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:3-10)

 

[Triumph1300]

Apparently you don’t care about facts and the commandment not to bear false witness against thy neighbour, nor do you care about compassion for “the least of those”.

Thanks.
It's clear you don't know me.

I believe criminals should be handled as the law of the country suggests.

 

[junobet]

Thanks.
It's clear you don't know me.

I believe criminals should be handled as the law of the country suggests.

It so happens that you live in a democracy. You're able to decide which laws you deem better than others. To make Daca-recipients the pawn in the game for a silly wall, the sense of which even Republican politicians near the border don't see, is a moral decision Americans can support or not support. Just as you can stick to the facts and discern what you're talking about, or conflate people such as Belen Sisa, who was brought to the US from Argentina when she was 6 years old, with ISIS-terrorists.

 

[Stranger]

" ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
(Matthew 5:3-10)

Nations do not and cannot operate according to the Beatitudes. If they did they would cease to exist.

These Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount, pertain to the Kingdom that Jesus came ready to implement, which was rejected.

These Beatitudes are directly to those of the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Christ on earth ruling and reigning.

The Christian is already in the Kingdom due to faith in Christ and his life can reflect these beatitudes. But they are no law for the Church to live under, and are really impractical at this time.

Once the rejection of Christ was set, the believers now needed the two swords. (Luke 22:36-38) "...he that hath now sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus was no social pacifist.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

@Stranger Excellent answer.

 

[Triumph1300]

It so happens that you live in a democracy

That's right. And that's why we go by the law.
You cannot pick and choose.
Some people come the legal way, others don't.
The ones that don't should face deportation.
Plain and simple.

 

[amadeus]

Traitors or rebels, yes. The point was we were not illegal immigrants to the English. Which is where your comparison failed.

No, we were not illegal until we did things which according their law were considered illegal. Being a traitor was not legal according to English law. But, as you would say that is history. Right or wrong we did not make it so, as it was well before our time, and we cannot change it.

You want to use the Indians and slaves as if their opinion is some sort of proof against us who are against illegal immigration. When I respond you move back to a 'christian spirituality' tone saying we should not be concerned with anyone not on God's side.

No, I don't use the Indians and slaves of proof of right or wrong for us now. I was simply pointing out that our own history is quite flawed to put it mildly. We can be very wrong without considering Indians or former slaves at all. Anyone who had ever operated according to the ways of his own flesh has been wrong:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

Strictly speaking I am against illegal immigration, but on the other hand my best friend was born in Mexico and arrived in this county as an illegal alien. He was naturalized as a U.S. Citizen many years ago.

However, what I think about the law does not always agree with what I should think about people. The question to which I always want to have the answer to is: What does God wants us to do in the given situation?

I have never indicated the believer is not to have God first. You however are indicating that for a believer to have a political viewpoint is not to put God first.

No, we cannot help having a political viewpoint and while we still in any measure seeing and also walking as through a glass darkly it may not agree precisely with what God would like for us to see. He can help us with that if we will allow it.

Or in this particular case, you are saying a believer who has a viewpoint against illegal immigrants is not putting God first.

I am not saying that.

I am unable to read the hearts of every believer in God who believes to make such a determination. Putting God first is one thing and a person's belief with regard to illegal immigrants is another. The two things make affect each other within an individual believer but the affect will NOT always be the same in every case. This is why God alone can make a fair and final judgment on it.

Consider the harlot, Rahab, who committed treason against her government in Jericho to help the Israeli spies. The spies along with the rest of Israel were planning to illegally immigrate. Should she have upheld the law of Jericho and turned the spies in...?

She committed treason and lied on behalf of the spies and Israel, the enemies of her people. Yet she is listed with the faithful:

"By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." Heb 11:31

You give several verses, all good, that supposedly speak against what I have said. I don't disagree with these verses. These verses do not indicate I am not to have an opinion about illegal immigration. Nor do they indicate my opinion is wrong.

You may hold your own opinion and God alone is the One who will judge yea or nay in your case. If your heart is right before God, who could stand against you?

My opinion is this. You and others like you, being those who simply see God and nothing else, have a political opinion whether you admit it or not.

I admit that I have such an political opinion, but I also strive to allow God to help me change any such opinion of mine so that it equals the opinion that He wants me to have. I do not presume to tell God what His will for me would be. This is what I pray when I pray:

"... nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

And when you're opposed to another political opinion of a believer, you use God or the believers relationship to God to counter that believers opinion.

I cannot and do not attempt to speak for anyone else. I only speak for myself and I want whatever I speak to please God. Sometimes it does. I need His help to do better when it does not:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

In other words...'those who are against illegal immigration just can't be putting God or Christ first in their lives. If they were really Godly they would love them all and have no opinion on immigration.'

Foolish.
Stranger

You may draw that conclusion, but I do not. Even though I disagree with you apparently in more than one place, I realize that in spite of those disagreements, you may well be pleasing God in some areas better than me. God is reading our hearts, every one of them. We have a tendency to mix what we know of God with what our fleshly ways are telling us. This is the double mindedness of which James writes:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

Help us dear Lord!

 

[Helen]

If we call a spade a spade and openly say...Yes we came over to a country to spread ourself , take over and dominate..as we ( British, Spanish and French) did "back then." Yet that changed positively, once the new country was settled they wanted new people to come, to join and work. So people came to join and settle.
In the last 100 years we have come to live and be a part of...not to take over and dominate.
Now it has changed again...those who come ...and we know who we are speaking about...openly say they they come to take over, dominate and take charge...even if it means the death of those already here.

Maybe history is repeating itself, maybe they are the cowboys and we are now the Indians .

 

[Stranger]

No, we were not illegal until we did things which according their law were considered illegal. Being a traitor was not legal according to English law. But, as you would say that is history. Right or wrong we did not make it so, as it was well before our time, and we cannot change it.


No, I don't use the Indians and slaves of proof of right or wrong for us now. I was simply pointing out that our own history is quite flawed to put it mildly. We can be very wrong without considering Indians or former slaves at all. Anyone who had ever operated according to the ways of his own flesh has been wrong:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

Strictly speaking I am against illegal immigration, but on the other hand my best friend was born in Mexico and arrived in this county as an illegal alien. He was naturalized as a U.S. Citizen many years ago.

However, what I think about the law does not always agree with what I should think about people. The question to which I always want to have the answer to is: What does God wants us to do in the given situation?


No, we cannot help having a political viewpoint and while we still in any measure seeing and also walking as through a glass darkly it may not agree precisely with what God would like for us to see. He can help us with that if we will allow it.


I am not saying that.

I am unable to read the hearts of every believer in God who believes to make such a determination. Putting God first is one thing and a person's belief with regard to illegal immigrants is another. The two things make affect each other within an individual believer but the affect will NOT always be the same in every case. This is why God alone can make a fair and final judgment on it.

Consider the harlot, Rahab, who committed treason against her government in Jericho to help the Israeli spies. The spies along with the rest of Israel were planning to illegally immigrate. Should she have upheld the law of Jericho and turned the spies in...?

She committed treason and lied on behalf of the spies and Israel, the enemies of her people. Yet she is listed with the faithful:

"By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." Heb 11:31


You may hold your own opinion and God alone is the One who will judge yea or nay in your case. If your heart is right before God, who could stand against you?


I admit that I have such an political opinion, but I also strive to allow God to help me change any such opinion of mine so that it equals the opinion that He wants me to have. I do not presume to tell God what His will for me would be. This is what I pray when I pray:

"... nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

I cannot and do not attempt to speak for anyone else. I only speak for myself and I want whatever I speak to please God. Sometimes it does. I need His help to do better when it does not:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30




You may draw that conclusion, but I do not. Even though I disagree with you apparently in more than one place, I realize that in spite of those disagreements, you may well be pleasing God in some areas better than me. God is reading our hearts, every one of them. We have a tendency to mix what we know of God with what our fleshly ways are telling us. This is the double mindedness of which James writes:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

Help us dear Lord!

Again, your comparison of us and England during the Revolution with illegal immigration is flawed. And now you continue with a flawed comparison of Rahab in Jericho and the spies. Israel was not immigrating. They were a conquering army. But immigration sounds so good, doesn't it. That way you can put your spin on illegal immigration being acceptable to God.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Again, your comparison of us and England during the Revolution with illegal immigration is flawed. And now you continue with a flawed comparison of Rahab in Jericho and the spies. Israel was not immigrating. They were a conquering army. But immigration sounds so good, doesn't it. That way you can put your spin on illegal immigration being acceptable to God.

Stranger

Must you so twist my words? I generally do not approve of illegal immigration, but if God uses it to accomplish His will, and He makes me aware of it, then I must change my general opinion. I am not saying that He has done this or that He is doing this here and now. I am saying I need to stay in touch with Him as does every believer so as to stand where God wants us to stand. Hard and fast black and white rules do not apply.

As to current immigration, I have no definite stand for or against it in spite of your insinuations. Generally if it is illegal I would be against it. I have insufficient evidence to make a specific judgment on it and don't say that I should get educated. My education continues into the things of God which are already more than I have time to handle. If God wants me to delve into something else and my heart is open, He will direct me.

 

[Stranger]

Must you so twist my words? I generally do not approve of illegal immigration, but if God uses it to accomplish His will, and He makes me aware of it, then I must change my general opinion. I am not saying that He has done this or that He is doing this here and now. I am saying I need to stay in touch with Him as does every believer so as to stand where God wants us to stand. Hard and fast black and white rules do not apply.

As to current immigration, I have no definite stand for or against it in spite of your insinuations. Generally if it is illegal I would be against it. I have insufficient evidence to make a specific judgment on it and don't say that I should get educated. My education continues into the things of God which are already more than I have time to handle. If God wants me to delve into something else and my heart is open, He will direct me.

I didn't twist your words. You were twisting the Scripture to fit the present problem of illegal immigration.

Stranger

 

[junobet]

Nations do not and cannot operate according to the Beatitudes. If they did they would cease to exist.

If I believe the Bible, it’s nations that failed to practice righteousness that ceased to exist because God’s wrath was on them.

Also I can think of countries that only exist because people operated according to the Sermon On the Mount. These people’s non-violent resistance brought down the British occupation of India and the Berlin wall, oh yes, and such non-violent resistance also ended segregation in the US.

These Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount, pertain to the Kingdom that Jesus came ready to implement, which was rejected.

These Beatitudes are directly to those of the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Christ on earth ruling and reigning.

The Christian is already in the Kingdom due to faith in Christ and his life can reflect these beatitudes. But they are no law for the Church to live under, and are really impractical at this time.

We’ve been here before, stranger. I hope you at least remember that your ideas on the Millenial Kingdom are an extreme fringe view within Christianity. And even most millenialists tend to think the Sermon on the Mount is to be put into practice here and now unless one wants to build one's house on sand.

I can imagine white supremacists find following Christ’s commandments highly impractical, but here you go: Jesus never promised that becoming His disciple would be a walk in the park. Quite the contrary. So if one's life doesn't reflect the beatitudes, one probably is a Christian in name only.

Once the rejection of Christ was set, the believers now needed the two swords. (Luke 22:36-38) "...he that hath now sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus was no social pacifist.

Stranger

Again we’ve been here before: You forgot that these swords were merely required to fulfil scripture. When one of his disciples actually wanted to use a sword, Jesus said “‘No more of this!’” (Luke 22:51). The first Christians obviously still remembered this, for they were indeed pacifist up until the Constantinian shift. If you are keen on war, you shouldn’t try to find your arguments for it with Jesus, go to Augustine.

 

[junobet]

That's right. And that's why we go by the law.
You cannot pick and choose.
Some people come the legal way, others don't.
The ones that don't should face deportation.
Plain and simple.

Yes, I got that you want to deport people, who came to the US as kids illegally through no fault of their own, spent pretty much their entire life in the US and know no other place to call home. It’s painful to see such lack of compassion in a fellow-Christian. But as I said, other Conservative Evangelicals apparently still have some compassion, even Trump's Evangelical board members do:

“Various members of President Trump's evangelical advisory council came together on Thursday with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) in a rare public show of support for the preservation of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program.

"You have always taken the lead. Your commitment to the immigrant community to the 'Dreamers' is second to none. So America is in a better place because of your prophetic leadership on this matter," the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, who prayed at Trump's inauguration, told Pelosi at a news conference Thursday. Rodriguez praised bipartisan efforts from the president and members of Congress on DACA, but said it was time to put politics aside on the matter.

"We can't continue to play politics with 800,000 human beings created in the image of God. It is morally reprehensible," Rodriguez said. (…)“

Trump evangelical board members unite with Pelosi on DACA

 

[Triumph1300]

Yes, I got that you want to deport people, who came to the US as kids illegally through no fault of their own, spent pretty much their entire life in the US and know no other place to call home. It’s painful to see such lack of compassion in a fellow-Christian.

There's no use responding to your garbage.

 

[Stranger]

If I believe the Bible, it’s nations that failed to practice righteousness that ceased to exist because God’s wrath was on them.

Also I can think of countries that only exist because people operated according to the Sermon On the Mount. These people’s non-violent resistance brought down the British occupation of India and the Berlin wall, oh yes, and such non-violent resistance also ended segregation in the US.


We’ve been here before, stranger. I hope you at least remember that your ideas on the Millenial Kingdom are an extreme fringe view within Christianity. And even most millenialists tend to think the Sermon on the Mount is to be put into practice here and now unless one wants to build one's house on sand.

I can imagine white supremacists find following Christ’s commandments highly impractical, but here you go: Jesus never promised that becoming His disciple would be a walk in the park. Quite the contrary. So if one's life doesn't reflect the beatitudes, one probably is a Christian in name only.


Again we’ve been here before: You forgot that these swords were merely required to fulfil scripture. When one of his disciples actually wanted to use a sword, Jesus said “‘No more of this!’” (Luke 22:51). The first Christians obviously still remembered this, for they were indeed pacifist up until the Constantinian shift. If you are keen on war, you shouldn’t try to find your arguments for it with Jesus, go to Augustine.

That is the root problem. You don't believe the Bible. You like to use certain portions of the Bible, but your don't believe the Bible.

You say 'non-violent' resistance ended segregation in the U.S.? My memory is better than yours. There were violent race riots everywhere. Such a silly statement you make. You live in a dreamworld.

You say non-violence brought down the Berlin wall. Are you kidding? There was much killing and fighting in the overthrow of Communist dictators prior to the Wall falling. Again, your dreaming.

Jesus Christ was on the fringe also...wasn't He. Luther was on the fringe also...wasn't he? Life on the front is life on the fringe. Just make sure you are right.

Well, I am white and I have no problem with Christ's commandments. I discern what His commandments to me are and discern what His commandments to others are.

The 'beatitudes' are not the way to be a Christian. Is that what you believe? What happened to your faith in Jesus Christ?

No, I didn't forget about the Swords. There is a time and place for the sword. Which is why you should sell all you have and get one.

No, I am not keen on war. I am keen on being against idiotic pacifism which you present.

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

If Trump gets the wall underway, he will likely get a second term.

The wall got him elected.

 

[aspen]

This seems to be the standard reaction from the left. They know better than you, that you're actually opposed to all immigrants, instead of just illegals.

Never have I heard a liberal consider the side of legal immigrants, who have spent tens of thousands in lawyer fees just to guide them through the long painful process of becoming a citizen or permanent resident. Its not fair for someone to slip across the border illegally and be able to claim equal status.

But that is just another case where liberals value equality over fairness.

Yes. Citizenship is for the rich immigrant.

 

[aspen]

Nations do not and cannot operate according to the Beatitudes. If they did they would cease to exist.

These Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount, pertain to the Kingdom that Jesus came ready to implement, which was rejected.

These Beatitudes are directly to those of the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Christ on earth ruling and reigning.

The Christian is already in the Kingdom due to faith in Christ and his life can reflect these beatitudes. But they are no law for the Church to live under, and are really impractical at this time.

Once the rejection of Christ was set, the believers now needed the two swords. (Luke 22:36-38) "...he that hath now sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus was no social pacifist.

Stranger

From a man who advocates for a theocracy?! Wow....

Crazy to read posts like this.......

The same people that want to outlaw homosexuality and abortion based on the Bible, dismiss the Beatitudes...

 

[Stranger]

From a man who advocates for a theocracy?! Wow....

Crazy to read posts like this.......

The same people that want to outlaw homosexuality and abortion based on the Bible, dismiss the Beatitudes...

Wow.

Where did I advocate for a Theocracy? Wow.

Stranger

 

[Willie T]

Who in the world would want a Theocracy? That would be where every knee would bow to God, and He would rule and reign supreme.